Can we trust the political caste to reform politics??

simonj

Having looked at FG's New Era 'proposals' on electoral reform, there is a slight feeling that ones clothes have been stolen while swimming.
The only thing is the New Era program does not go far enough.

At least FG will consider it, on current electorial requirements - i.e. that a byelection should be held within 6 months of a seat being vacated.
FF and the Greens are willing to spend tens of thousands of our money in legal fees to avoid this requirement.

Its to me obviously opportunistic of FG to take an Amhran Nua idea and propose electoral reform.

The thing is, to rebuild the relevance of our political system is too important to leave in the hands of politicians.

FG's reform proposals are pointless as it will be politicians who will be drawing up the new system.

This is also the problem with Labour proposing another Amhran Nua idea of a constitutional conference to drag the basic law of the state kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

The established parties do not want the system to change and we do!
Its an extraordinary situation that has been going on since the foundation of the state.

It's a con act, because in every reform that we have had FF and FG have been determined that power should remain in the hands of the political caste.

They still are determined to develop a system that allows them to hold on to power, because it is their job - and in Ireland in particular with our dynastic political system, its also their families future.

What we the people want is for our views to be represented in our Dail, but the system is squewed against that because the vast majority of TD's are going to be lobby fodder.

I do not know what other readers are politically, but if you put an FF rosette on a dog down here it would get elected.

The current situation is ludicrous, our views - such as they may be - are not represented.
Our local government is so bad we need to ask TD's to do the job of coucillors.

The 'reforms' proposed by FG are not nearly radical enough.

What we need to do is move away from the idea that a TD represents a local constituancy, thats local governments job - supposedly.

We need to elect people to represent our point of view rather than our area.

And if you look at political party websites, Amhran Nua seem to be the only ones who offer open debate on how things should change, where your ideas and suggestions are welcome, not fobbed off with a standardised email response.

Denerick

This stinks of propaganda. The stark reality is the new eccentric political parties, which mostly seem to have emerged from pubs and community centers across the country, will not be a realistic political force.

True political reform will only happen when the Irish citizens become virtuous - not something particularly likely. So long as they continue to elect the little bogmen from their corner of the Republic to build bypasses and fix potholes, we'll be plagued by localism and will never be able to grasp the bigger picture.

simonj

Well, there are those of us who are pushing for change of the system - and its nothing to do with being virtuous.

Our local representitives and councils are so useless, and so entrenched that it needs urgent change.

Our TD's need to do the work that councils should be able to do, the system is broken - lets change it

nesf

This is straying far too close to a party political broadcast. This forum isn't a place for ye to use a platform to advertise your policies.

Hazlittle

There is no political caste in irelaand. Only keyboard warriors and those that get of seats to be active. You have no right to complain if you arent active.

View

I have a problem with this idea of a "constitutional convention" to reform the constitution.

To my mind, we already have permanent bodies which can initiate reform of the constitution at any time they choose - they are, of course, the Oireachtas. Furthermore, we actually get to elect - either directly or indirectly - most, but not all, of the members of these bodies.

(The indirect refers to the Seanad elections in case anyone is wondering)

RATM

There's a drastic need to get away from PR-STV in this country. This system just keeps throwing up politicans who spend most of their time competing for local favours and going to funerals rather than concentrating on legislating.

Politicans even have to compete against their own party members within their own constituency under PR-STV. And when that's the case they get bogged down too much in local politics rather than doing what's good for the country. I'm not saying we should get away from PR but there are plenty of other versions of it that would suit our needs better.

An adoptaion of the Dutch system whereby the whole country is a single constituency would go along way to solving our localism and tribalism problems tbh. It would mean someone like Michael O'Leary could stand in Westmeath but be voted for by anyone in the country. This way some of our brighest and best could get elected. For example look at Sen. Norris, Ross & O'Toole in the Seanad. They are 3 of the best parlimentarians at keeping the govt. to account yet if they stood in Dail elections there's a chance they mightn't get in. But if we had a single national constituency then there is a good chance they would as votes could be garnered from all over the country and not just a local area.

But irrespective of all this nothing is ever going to change in this country until the permanent govt., i.e. the upper echelons of the Civil Service is reformed. To me many Secretary Generals seem to be careerists - you can't get to this extremely responsible position unless you've spent your entire career with the Civil Service. This excludes all the talent available amongst CEO's in the private sector, many of whom would do a far better job of running the Dept. of Finance than the likes of Kevin Cardiff and his ilk do.

The nature of a career has changed profoundly over the last 10 years but the Civil Service has yet to twig onto the idea. Instead they just promote the same old tat who are the most similar to themselves. Nothing will ever change in this country until that problem is addressed. And considering the Seceretary General's clout in ensuring they avoided pay cuts as bad as the lower grade workers I won't be holding my breath anytime soon.

sceptre

Denerick wrote: »

This stinks of propaganda. The stark reality is the new eccentric political parties, which mostly seem to have emerged from pubs and community centers across the country, will not be a realistic political force.

True political reform will only happen when the Irish citizens become virtuous - not something particularly likely. So long as they continue to elect the little bogmen from their corner of the Republic to build bypasses and fix potholes, we'll be plagued by localism and will never be able to grasp the bigger picture.

I'll happily agree with all of that.

simonj

As RATM says, there are people with great qualities in this country who - because of our system - would not get elected.

I dont like O Leary's views on Union membership, but I would not then vote for him.

Sen. Ross is a great example, as he understands the banking crisis as well as any and better than most. We need someone of his expertese and intellect in the Dail.
IMHO he and Eva Jolie should have been put in charge of a bank enquirey rather than the half assed efforts we have seen so far, whos findings were eclipsed by the internecine FG heave.

As I said we need to move away from the idea that a TD represents a local constituancy.

We need to elect people to represent our point of view rather than our area.

In terms of ocal goverment, regional rather than county authorities need to be looked at to provide local utilities and enforce local regulations.
That means an oversight body on the unelected civil servants.

Denerick

How do you propose to do that? A political party will not deliver a fundamental change in national character. This has to be a grassroots development and demographics will influence this much more than any odd gathering of eccentrics.

We already see it in some parts of Dublin - voters who are relatively footloose in terms of their constituencies (IE, South Dublin voters who don't particularly care about local politics, or interlopers from the country voting in city elections) Most of these people are more concerned with national issues - health, education, economic reform - rather than with electing somebody who will bring a new heritage center to the constituency, or push for a new bypass.

Ireland is localised because we are still stuck in a pre 1980s mentality. However far our society may have come since then, it has not penetrated our understanding of what the body politic stands for. Only when the people of Ireland begin to look outside their little townland will we get the government we deserve.

I'm not holding my breath.

Wolfe Tone

I think the mentality is that if politicians look outside their own constituencies at "national issues" their relative backwaters will be forgotten about, and things will be even more "dublin centric". Thats why I personally believe a federal system is a good idea and would address these issues.(to a degree)
For instance if we had a president(one with power) they would not be voted for because of local needs/wants.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I think the mentality is that if politicians look outside their own constituencies at "national issues" their relative backwaters will be forgotten about, and things will be even more "dublin centric". Thats why I personally believe a federal system is a good idea and would address these issues.(to a degree)
For instance if we had a president(one with power) they would not be voted for because of local needs/wants.

I think parliamentary systems are much more superior to presidential systems. For a start, we don't want the whole X factor buzz associated with a directly elected President who wields political power.

I quite like the fact that we have a President who essentially does nothing. I want to keep that office strictly ceremonial.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

I think parliamentary systems are much more superior to presidential systems. For a start, we don't want the whole X factor buzz associated with a directly elected President who wields political power.

I quite like the fact that we have a President who essentially does nothing. I want to keep that office strictly ceremonial.

Well personally I would like to see a federal system with the provinces as "states" with their own parliaments so that policies can be tailored to that area, the same policies that work for Dublin are not necessarily good for the rest of the country etc etc, then I would like to see another parliament with members drawn from each of the Provinces(national issues, federal laws etc), then a President(again national issues, foreign policies). I get what you mean about the "x factor" that is a downside.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Well personally I would like to see a federal system with the provinces as "states" with their own parliaments so that policies can be tailored to that area, the same policies that work for Dublin are not necessarily good for the rest of the country etc etc, then I would like to see another parliament with members drawn from each of the Provinces(national issues, federal laws etc), then a President(again national issues, foreign policies). I get what you mean about the "x factor" that is a downside.

I think Ireland is too small to justify a federal system. The exception would in the instance of reunification, where a devolution settlement for the 6 counties might work. Other than that I don't really see the point in such a small island, with around 4 million people, been broken up into constituent parts like this.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

I think Ireland is too small to justify a federal system. The exception would in the instance of reunification, where a devolution settlement for the 6 counties might work. Other than that I don't really see the point in such a small island, with around 4 million people, been broken up into constituent parts like this.

Yes, I was including Ulster in that. Its not a new idea at all. If you are interested and can look past the fact that it is a RSF policy you should read up on Éire Nua, thats similar to what I was talking about.


Personally when you talk about changing grassroots motivations etc, that aint gonna happen. What we need to do is change the system to one which embraces the reasons why people vote for who they do, and change that negative into a positive. People wont change( I dont think) the system can.

Denerick

Considering there has been talk of a Federal 'solution' since the early 19th century, no, its not a new idea at all By the way, Republican Sinn Féin can hardly claim a monopoly on the idea, its been advocated for centuries by various groups and people...

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

Considering there has been talk of a Federal 'solution' since the early 19th century, no, its not a new idea at all By the way, Republican Sinn Féin can hardly claim a monopoly on the idea, its been advocated for centuries by various groups and people...

Yeah I know that, but as far as I know(correct me ) they are the only political party with that policy.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Yeah I know that, but as far as I know(correct me ) they are the only political party with that policy.

Its an interesting one. I'd assume the only reason the mainstream parties of the Republic haven't bothered formulating a policy about how to reconcile with Ulster in the case of unification is because they don't see it is a realistic possibility in their lifetime. I'd imagine that all political parties in the south would embrace devolution as the long term solution in any unification strategy...

simonj

Denerick wrote: »

How do you propose to do that? A political party will not deliver a fundamental change in national character. This has to be a grassroots development and demographics will influence this much more than any odd gathering of eccentrics.

Well the prospect of being able to vote for someone who shares your views, and not your postal area is a start.
I do not believe that the irish are fundamentaly corrupt - I do believe that the current political system is, as are those with a vested interest.
A corrupt system forces people to be corrupt.

Overheal

tl;dr

Can we trust the political caste to reform politics??

You may as well ask me if I think United States Congressman and Senators will ever pass their own term limits or take themselves of their congressional and senatorial healthcare and pension programs. The answer to all three of those things is No, I don't ever see it happening. In spite of needing to happen, almost the entire chain benefits from the status quo. An executive order would perhaps be the only method but that would be political suicide from many and varied angles - not to mention a congressional supermajority would easily override any such EO.