Provincial Final Winners all beaten in the Quarter-Finals

DeepBlue

Is this the first time that all the Provincial final winners were eliminated at the Quarter-final stage?

Zonda999

It is afaik

DeepBlue

Quite amazing really. :eek:
It gives more weight to those that argue that going the back door route is an advantage.
Still at least the losers all have some medals so the year hasn't been a total waste.

neveah

I think it is too. A lot to be said for the back door. Dublin were woeful earlier this season and they had a great win yesterday, Kildare showed themselves to be very strong today, Down and Cork seem to have benefited from the extra games as well.

It's definitely wide open this year. Hard to call the Cork/Dublin game, Cork were only average today and they got the easiest draw against Roscommon but they are probably the 'favourites' out of the final 4 but I'm still not too sure about them.

Looking forward to the semis already!

dartbhoy

The big question is will anyone want to win their provincial title next year!

popebenny16

Nothing to be shocked about, it was coming down the tracks, the way Kerry and Tyrone used the backdoor in the last two years was the blueprint. of course now that its "traditional" counties losing out we'll hear a lot more about it.

there are no rule changes allowed until 2012 so we are stuck with it till 2013 at least. i don't think any team sets out to lose in the provincial championships - does anyone seriously think that the Dublin team and management didn't mind losing to Meath or gave up??

The provincial winners will have to try and do something to replicate the week in-week out advantage that the backdoor winners have, be it serious challenge games or even, god forbid, running a few rounds of the county championships during the summer.

The county boards should also kick some ass on the provincial councils - when did the Connaught Championship start and end, for example? Their own stupidity adds to it.

Also not just the winners out, all the provincial finalists are out....

oneillMan999

Said it before and ill say it again...we will see certain teams not trying too hard in their provincial semi finals so they can enter the qualifiers at the perfect stage and not be hindered by any idiotic GAA game fixtures..

popebenny16

oneillMan999 wrote: »

Said it before and ill say it again...we will see certain teams not trying too hard in their provincial semi finals so they can enter the qualifiers at the perfect stage and not be hindered by any idiotic GAA game fixtures..

which teams do you think will do that? Can you spot any of them who did it this year even?

oneillMan999

popebenny16 wrote: »

which teams do you think will do that? Can you spot any of them who did it this year even?

nope, no teams did it this year as far as i can see, but they will have learnt from what they have seen and the history of prov losing finalists in the next round and act accordingly.


dont know "which" teams will do it, depends on what certain teams priorities are, if they wanna win an all ireland or even get to a final then losing a prov semi would be more beneficial.

popebenny16

to be honest i cant see it, local rivalries are too strong, Dublin-v-Meath or Kildare, Mayo and Galway will want to avenge Sligo next year, the lads in Ulster would never contemplate losing to anyone else.

The only one team (s) I can see pulling up in a match in their Provence if they are losing will be Cork and Kerry if they are playing each other in order to get the other back later on in the year.

FREETV

I'd say that it is between either Cork or Down to win the All Ireland Final this year and after seeing Cork's first half performance today, I would be betting on Down winning if I was a betting man and they stay focused and keep their heads screwed on! Who would have betted on all four Provincial Title holders being knocked out this year? A major shock. The backdoor system really does open the Championship these days.

Magi11

In 2002, only the second year of the back door system. Armagh played Tyrone in the Ulster Final which ended in a draw. Peter Canavan was injured in the game and was only 80% fit for the replay. So Tyrone left him on the bench, with the plan of introducing him with 15-20 mins left, however Armagh were 5 or 6 points ahead at that stage so Tyrone didn't risk him, took the defeat and went through the qualifiers. Now it all blew up in their faces when they were beaten by Sligo in Croke Park. But this is what we could be getting from now on. Armagh won the All Ireland in 2002, they went to La Manga, so everybody started going "out foreign". In 2003 Tyrone won, they only trained twice week and didn't play challenge matches, everyone copies them. 2006 and its kerry with a big man on FF, everyone copies that. Whoever wins this All Ireland will be looked at for the reason behind their success and the answer some might come up with is that losing early in the Provincial Championship and taking short term pain for long term gain is the way to go. It might mean training schedules being done to ensure peak fitness later in the year. It might mean "resting" key players but one way or another, the GAA have a system that rewards losing and some managers are going to take advantage of that.
IMO none of the semi finalists deliberately lost this year. Dublin were the victims of some very poor refereeing, Kildare were the first but not the last team to take Louth for granted, Down didn't go out to lose against Tyrone, they just lost their nerve and consequently their shape in the last 20 mins amistake which they learned from last Saturday and If Cork were to deliberately lose to Kerry you would think that they wouldn't go to the hassle of a replay!!

MementoMori

In addition to all four of the winning provincal finalists being beaten in their next game, three of the four losing provincal finalists lost their next game as well. Basically of the eight provincial finalists only Cork won their next game, all of the other seven lost. Getting to a provincial final didn't help much in the quest for Sam this year anyway.

Kingdom

MementoMori wrote: »

In addition to all four of the winning provincal finalists being beaten in their next game, three of the four losing provincal finalists lost their next game as well. Basically of the eight provincial finalists only Cork won their next game, all of the other seven lost. Getting to a provincial final didn't help much in the quest for Sam this year anyway.

I thought we were discussing 2010?

MementoMori

Kingdom wrote: »

I thought we were discussing 2010?

Sorry Always just assume that Kerry Cork is the Munster final :eek:

Off for more of a lie-down to recover

Kingdom

Just to add to the discussion, I don't buy the argument of getting knocked out is the way to go.

Down got a nice draw in the qualifiers. They could easily have drawn Armagh or Kildare in their first round, and be gone, as that confidence they built up would have been non-existant.
Likewise Kildare. They'd a tougher draw and given the circumstances they found themselves in, had they been playing a tougher team than Antrim (Cork eg) they'd be out on their ear too.

I just think it's a false argument. Kerry didn't lose on Sat because they were rusty - they lost cause they're at the end of the road and didn't integrate new players properly.
Meath's relative poor performances were overshadowed by the LF debacle. Had Louth won, and faced Kildare and lost, nobody would referring to the current situation. Meath weren't as good as some people made out. Roscommon probably got as far as they deserve now, and faced the toughest of the qualifiers, while the genuine surprise was the Dublin victory.

A better question for me would be "Should provincial champions have a second bite of the cherry?". I think they should. But then again I'm biased!

namloc1980

The fact that provincial winners get no 2nd chance is not right. The Sunday Game lads were proposing something to rectify this. Instead of quarter finals, after the Round 4 qualifiers, you have a playoff round. The four provincial winners are drawn against each other with the 2 winners advancing to the semi-finals. Meanwhile the four qualifiers would play each other with the 2 losers going home and the 2 winners going on to play the 2 losing provincial winners for a place in the semi-finals.

Kingdom

Didn't hear that but it's a pretty fair proposal.

homerjay2005

maybe give home advantage to the 4 final winners next year and do away with croke park as venue for 1/4s? do the same for the last round of the qualifiers also for the 4 final losers. that would be one way.


we had 110,000 people attend the 4 games. maybe when dublin are involved like this year for example, the decision can be give where to play the game to say tyrone. they probably would have decided to playin in croke park anyway,if not clones or omagh. lets say they chose clones to give more of their fans the chance to see it, thats 35,000 anyway.

Kerry V down probably only had about 15,000 there maximum the last day, if this was played in Killarney, there would have been double that at least.

Roscommon V Cork, again surely there would have been 30,000 in Hyde park or whatever the capacity is.

Meath V Kildare would have been a 30,000 sell out in Navan, no question.

those stats alone, should give some weight to home advantage for 1/4's from now on.

Ace2007

namloc1980 wrote: »

The fact that provincial winners get no 2nd chance is not right. The Sunday Game lads were proposing something to rectify this. Instead of quarter finals, after the Round 4 qualifiers, you have a playoff round. The four provincial winners are drawn against each other with the 2 winners advancing to the semi-finals. Meanwhile the four qualifiers would play each other with the 2 losers going home and the 2 winners going on to play the 2 losing provincial winners for a place in the semi-finals.

this is so stupid - so you could get a situation whereby 2 teams get to the semi finals without ever losing and then both get knocked out and complain - so then 2 years down the line someone will say they should get another chance.

namloc1980

homerjay2005 wrote: »

maybe give home advantage to the 4 final winners next year and do away with croke park as venue for 1/4s? do the same for the last round of the qualifiers also for the 4 final losers. that would be one way.


we had 110,000 people attend the 4 games. maybe when dublin are involved like this year for example, the decision can be give where to play the game to say tyrone. they probably would have decided to playin in croke park anyway,if not clones or omagh. lets say they chose clones to give more of their fans the chance to see it, thats 35,000 anyway.

Kerry V down probably only had about 15,000 there maximum the last day, if this was played in Killarney, there would have been double that at least.

Roscommon V Cork, again surely there would have been 30,000 in Hyde park or whatever the capacity is.

Meath V Kildare would have been a 30,000 sell out in Navan, no question.

those stats alone, should give some weight to home advantage for 1/4's from now on.

As far as I know all quarter-finals must be played in Croke Park because of obligations under the Corporate box/Premium level deals.

namloc1980

Ace2007 wrote: »

this is so stupid - so you could get a situation whereby 2 teams get to the semi finals without ever losing and then both get knocked out and complain - so then 2 years down the line someone will say they should get another chance.

You can't complain if you get to a semi-final. The current system is unfair on provincial winners. They get no second chance as it stands which is ridiculous.

Ace2007

namloc1980 wrote: »

You can't complain if you get to a semi-final. The current system is unfair on provincial winners. They get no second chance as it stands which is ridiculous.

Unfair? there are a lot of things in the championship which are unfair.
You can look over the last few matches to see these.
People are only talkin about it more cause all 4 provisional champions are out, Didn't see this uproare 4/5 years ago.

The system someone mentioned would have the 4 winners player against each other yea? so that means they are going to get a tougher draw than it stands atm???

namloc1980

Ace2007 wrote: »

Unfair? there are a lot of things in the championship which are unfair.
You can look over the last few matches to see these.
People are only talkin about it more cause all 4 provisional champions are out, Didn't see this uproare 4/5 years ago.

The system someone mentioned would have the 4 winners player against each other yea? so that means they are going to get a tougher draw than it stands atm???

But they get a 2nd chance if they lose. This is more or less the same as the system used in the AFL down-under where it works well.

And you may not recall but the same things were being said 2 years ago when 3 of the 4 provincial winners lost in the quarter-finals. It's not right that everyone bar the provincial winners get a second bite at the cherry.

Ace2007

namloc1980 wrote: »

But they get a 2nd chance if they lose.

And you may not recall but the same things were being said 2 years ago when 3 of the 4 provincial winners lost in the quarter-finals. It's not right that everyone bar the provincial winners get a second bite at the cherry.

exactly my point, its only when a few of them lose - Dublin have lost 6 matches in 5 years - where was the uproare in each of the last 5 years when Dublin didn't get a second chance?

O wait thats right - who cares about Dublin!

namloc1980

Ace2007 wrote: »

exactly my point, its only when a few of them lose - Dublin have lost 6 matches in 5 years - where was the uproare in each of the last 5 years when Dublin didn't get a second chance?

O wait thats right - who cares about Dublin!

I'm pretty sure there was the same debate. It's been going on for a number of years. Provincial winners should get a second chance. The system proposed above is more or less the same as the system used in the AFL down-under where it works well.

Flukey

All the provincial winners (except Louth) got a trophy. That is their reward. There has to be a cut off point for second chances some place, and the end of the provincial championships is about the best place to do it. If we keep changing it we'll get to the point where we'll have people arguing that a provincial champion beaten in the All-Ireland Final by a qualifier is unfair and that they should have a second chance. We often hear that it is at the quarter -finals that the real championship starts, so any teams beaten there, be they provincial champions or not, should go.

They could address the time between teams losing and playing again, the so-called 6 day turnaround, by starting the provincial championships a bit earlier. As ever with this one, a losing team is seen to suffer if they've played over several successive weekends and a winning team is seen to have benefited if they've played over several successive weekends. So the same excuse is used for both arguments. Whether there have been several weeks playing or several weeks off in the run up to a game, it is all on the day as to what happens in their next match. It is a bit of a freak that not one of the 8 provincial finalists are left, but the 4 remaining teams are all there on merit. No one can argue with that.

Het-Field

namloc1980 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there was the same debate. It's been going on for a number of years. Provincial winners should get a second chance. The system proposed above is more or less the same as the system used in the AFL down-under where it works well.

Usually amongst Dublin fans, who were subsequently told to feck off with "their sour grapes". TBH, im delighted that Dublin are in the Semi Final, even at the expense of the Delaney Cup. Regardless of how Meath play it, the victory is hollow, and they were hammered by a team which has not won a Leinster Title in 10 years in the Quarters. Dublin have grown during the qualifiers.

Furthermore, this is what the counties signed up to. There was always potential for this to happen. I dont believe it will always be the case, and I doubt we will be having this discussion next term.

rossie1977

i think the way the minor championship is set up is better, only the losing provincial finalists get a second chance

its a bit of farce though when a team well beaten in the early rounds such as down, kildare or dublin are in the semis and the team which beat them are gone, same thing happened two years ago, dublin beat wexford by 24 points and wexford ended up going further

Warper

Important thing is not only were the Provincial Winners knocked out but all the Provincial Final losers are also gone. There is a massive flaw in the system and unless something is done quickly the whole thing is a farce with teams throwing their opening games.

Dermotsull13

homerjay2005 wrote: »

maybe give home advantage to the 4 final winners next year and do away with croke park as venue for 1/4s? do the same for the last round of the qualifiers also for the 4 final losers. that would be one way.


we had 110,000 people attend the 4 games. maybe when dublin are involved like this year for example, the decision can be give where to play the game to say tyrone. they probably would have decided to playin in croke park anyway,if not clones or omagh. lets say they chose clones to give more of their fans the chance to see it, thats 35,000 anyway.

Kerry V down probably only had about 15,000 there maximum the last day, if this was played in Killarney, there would have been double that at least.

Roscommon V Cork, again surely there would have been 30,000 in Hyde park or whatever the capacity is.

Meath V Kildare would have been a 30,000 sell out in Navan, no question.

those stats alone, should give some weight to home advantage for 1/4's from now on.

I have been saying similar to this myself in the last number of weeks. If they are not going to give the provential champions a second chance then surely they could embrace the idea of giving them home advantage/choice of venue for the quarters. Surely winning a provential title should bring some sort of significant reward that what it currently has. You would have got fairly large crowds in Killarney (45k) / Navan (32k) / Roscommon (30k) and Omagh (25k). Thats 132k. The total attendance in Croker over the weekend was 109k

Maybe the corporate shenanigans are ruling the roost on this one however...

How many qualifiers would fancy their chances going into the home patch of the provential champions instead of currently going to a neutral ground in Croker? Also the 4 week layoff between some provential finals and the quarters is too long. Teams lose match sharpness and intensity in that length of time.2 weeks is ideal. Have 2 provential football finals on 2 weeks before the quarters. The other 2 finals on 3 weeks before the quarters and rotate the sequence every second year.

Nickibaby*

Provincial Final Winners get a trophy and a play in the All Ireland Quarter Finals

I don't think they can start giving second chances once it comes to the Quarter Final Stage..

They also can't give home advantage to Provincial Winners as said before they must be played in Croke Park.

soccymonster

Nickibaby* wrote: »

Provincial Final Winners get a trophy and a play in the All Ireland Quarter Finals

I don't think they can start giving second chances once it comes to the Quarter Final Stage..

They also can't give home advantage to Provincial Winners as said before they must be played in Croke Park.

Yea exactly.
Surely that's reward enough winning your province and a QF place like.
Just because the provincial winners weren't up to scratch to beat the round 4 qualifier winners like and now there's call for some sorta change.
It's ridiculous.

From what I can make out from the RTE gaa poll, was it Mickey Harte proposing change or the Sunday Game panelists? (I was out of the country for the QF's, I saw them but didn't get to view the aftermath, so I'm just trying to get up to date here )

namloc1980

soccymonster wrote: »

Yea exactly.
Surely that's reward enough winning your province and a QF place like.
Just because the provincial winners weren't up to scratch to beat the round 4 qualifier winners like and now there's call for some sorta change.
It's ridiculous.

From what I can make out from the RTE gaa poll, was it Mickey Harte proposing change or the Sunday Game panelists? (I was out of the country for the QF's, I saw them but didn't get to view the aftermath, so I'm just trying to get up to date here )

To be fair to Mickey Harte he has been calling for a change in the system for a few years, even when Tyrone went through the backdoor to win Sam in 2005 and 2008.

JerryHandbag

How long has the back door system operated, 10 yrs? And this is the first time this has happened....as someone said earlier you have to have a cut-off point at some stage for allowing 2nd chances. The hurling championship structure seems to be chopped and changed every 2 or 3 years, I really hope the football doesnt go the same way.

I'm looking forward to the last 4, its pairings that a lot wouldnt have predicted so that brings great novelty to this stage of the championship. Bring it on!

KrazeeEyezKilla

It's become a bigger problem in the last few years. Although Galway won through the back door in 2001 the next three years had Armagh, Tyrone & Kerry go the unbeaten route. Even Tyrone in 2005 played five games in Ulster and only one qualifier so it's not like they weren't trying. It's only since 2006 that it's been used as an advantage. The only thing that could be done is to tighten up the provincial championships to stop team losing momentum. Despite everything the best teams will more than likely be at the later stages whatever way.

namloc1980

JerryHandbag wrote: »

How long has the back door system operated, 10 yrs? And this is the first time this has happened....as someone said earlier you have to have a cut-off point at some stage for allowing 2nd chances. The hurling championship structure seems to be chopped and changed every 2 or 3 years, I really hope the football doesnt go the same way.

I'm looking forward to the last 4, its pairings that a lot wouldnt have predicted so that brings great novelty to this stage of the championship. Bring it on!

It's clear that it is an increasing feature that qualifier teams are now doing better overall than the provincial champions. In the last 3 years only 3 of the 12 provincial champions have won their quarter-finals. That means that 9 teams have gone out of the Championship at the quarter-final stage with their first loss of the season - while everyone else gets a second bite at it. Not quite right IMO.

grenache

If i had my way, i would get rid of the qualifiers altogether. They add nothing to the championship and remove a team's 'do or die' mantra. If you're not good enough to win the first day out, you shouldn't get a second chance. Bollox to the back door i say.

Flukey

As Christy Cooney said, the original idea of the qualifiers was to give teams more than one championship game, not a second chance. A team that has won the provincial title has had more than one game. Teams that go out in the first round, which is where most teams do, don't have that luxury. A very good team can be beaten on their first outing. It may be tough that they had a bad day and got caught some would argue, but it is good to see teams come through and put the record straight. It is also good for the poorer teams to have another day. So come the quarter finals, there is nothing unfair about the team who scores the highest in the match winning it and the team that scores the lowest going out, no matter what has happened in their previous matches.

As for provincial winners playing at home in their next game: they don't want that. Anyone that was in Croke Park last Sunday saw the crowds of Roscommon fans, delighted to be in Croke Park. On the day they won the provincial final, players in after-match interviews were all saying that they were now going to play in Croke Park and that is where they want to be. There was great excitement in Roscommon all last week and they sold thousands of tickets and everyone was looking forward to going to Croke Park. It would not have been quite the same if they were due to play in Hyde Park last Sunday. As well as their trophy, their chance to play on the biggest stage of all is a great reward to a team and the fans. The GAA would be making a bit mistake if they were to deny them that. There would be uproar. Any of you advocating it here are making the same mistake. The provincial champions should be rewarded by a trophy and the chance to play in Croke Park.