Why don't kids cycle to school?

Corsendonk

I thought I would raise this topic before the kids go back. Every year the area outside schools in Fingal gets more cluttered with cars dropping/collecting children to and from school. Why can't these kids cycle to school?

Now Fingal isn't a rural area so the old arguement that its too far to cycle doesn't really stand up. Roads too dangerous for kids to cycle? Well it should be safer in Rush at least since its now the speed ramp capital of Fingal but are Fingals roads more unsafe than other european roads for cycling? Child safety issue with younger kids perhaps? Why can't the parents cycle to collect the kids then? Cost of bike? Sure that jeep or Suv costs alot more to purchase and run than a bike!

In June I was in Belgium, the place we stayed was nearby a local primary school so we got to observe the kids going to school and going home. Not one child was dropped off in a car, they either walked or cycled. Where the child was too young to cycle there parents would cycle to collect them. Surprisely we didnt see one obese child.

Moonbeam

I often wonder why so many people that live within walking distance drop their kids to school too?
I suppose people don't always live within walking distance of their school either.
When I was in school everyone walked,but then it was a very build up area so everyone was local.

Cycling them isn't too practical if there are smaller kids to be looked after too.

Martron

i know in other parts of dublin they do a walking train.

some parents i would imagine not like their kids cycling with danger invovled.

walking is a better option.

ti=oughen them up . i walked to school always. sometimes with no shoes on and in the snow!!

Corsendonk

Well the parents that I observed with small kids in Belgium either walked with them in prams or had them on the back of bikes. Amazing range of contraptions for babies/toddlers. Just seems to be an easy option for parents to use the car and a very hard habit to break.

Martron

when i was younger it was never an ioption really . i suppose in the last few years where possibly families could afford to have one parent at home it was just the norm that that parent would drop the kid to school.

i say that will change slowly again these days.

i think there is usually on going programs in schools encouraging walking to school as a way to sneak in exercise to a kids routine.

goat2

for most of school term, it is dark in the mornings and evenings as they are going to school.
and we now have more cars on roads, also we hear such stories of children being abducted and never seen again, all of these are the reason i took my children to school and brought them home

Corsendonk

There is a perception that cycling can be dangerious. So I always like to back up statements with facts when I can. The below statement comes from the Road Saety Authoriaty website

In 2009, 239 died on our roads. The 239 who died consisted of 40 pedestrians, 7 cyclists, 128 drivers, 38 passengers and 27 bikers.

So cycling seems alot safer than driving or even walking......

Beasty

On the safety issue, this year has (so far) been the best on record for cycling fatalities in Ireland - only 1 in the year to date

However Fingal roads are very poor for cycling along, and some are very busy at the time kids would typically be cycling to school.

There has been a major increase in road traffic over the past 30-40 years, and parents are much more conscious of the safety of their kids (both in terms of road safety, and the risk of strangers taking an "interest" in their kids) than was necessarily the case in the past. Add to this the fact that there are many more families where both parents work and it is only natural that more parents will look to drop their kids off in the car, rather than driving or walking.

Having said that, my kids go to a rural school (Milverton) where some of the other kids do cycle - they can use the back roads to get there. It would be totally unrealistic for my own kids to cycle because the only road they could reasonably use is way to dangerous given the amount and speed of traffic using it.

When I lived in the UK, the kids went to another rural school, where a "walking bus" was adopted, probably about 6 or 7 years ago. This was heavily reliant on parent support, but it did work very well, and the kids loved it. I personally think this would be a better way to get the kids an element of exercise, as it would ensure they would have some supervision at all times (all the parents taking part were required to have police checks)

Corsendonk

goat2 wrote: »

also we hear such stories of children being abducted and never seen again, all of these are the reason i took my children to school and brought them home

I hear stories about UFOs but i havent seen any! Yet! I just think its way too easy for use to think of an excuse not to encourage kids to cycle or actually cycle ourselves. We complain about kids staying in watching tv or playing pc games but adults have become lazy themselves. Remember most of our habits are set out early in life. Ireland already has obesity issues.

When I walked to school we mainly walked in groups of kids from your own area and I imagine that still happens to the rare kids that still walk and cycle. Many many years ago I didnt have the benefit of a mobile phone, now every kid seems to have one if something goes wrong.

Back to the Belgium example the town I was in had very little cycle lanes, cobble streets in parts, some very poorly kept roads indeed and the kids/adults didnt wear cycle helmets yet I didnt see one incident the week I was there. I did ask if they not have alot of accidents and claims against the city council but was told that the city council would tell the complainer to use there eyes next time.

Yes, there is more traffic on our roads but in the past rose tinted glasses days of Ireland, roads were in extremely poor condition, there was no such thing as drink driving, you could have as many as you wanted before driving and poor road lighting if any.

Martron

Corsendonk wrote: »

I hear stories about UFOs but i havent seen any! Yet! I just think its way too easy for use to think of an excuse not to encourage kids to cycle or actually cycle ourselves. We complain about kids staying in watching tv or playing pc games but adults have become lazy themselves. Remember most of our habits are set out early in life. Ireland already has obesity issues.

When I walked to school we mainly walked in groups of kids from your own area and I imagine that still happens to the rare kids that still walk and cycle. Many many years ago I didnt have the benefit of a mobile phone, now every kid seems to have one if something goes wrong.

Back to the Belgium example the town I was in had very little cycle lanes, cobble streets in parts, some very poorly kept roads indeed and the kids/adults didnt wear cycle helmets yet I didnt see one incident the week I was there. I did ask if they not have alot of accidents and claims against the city council but was told that the city council would tell the complainer to use there eyes next time.

Yes, there is more traffic on our roads but in the past rose tinted glasses days of Ireland, roads were in extremely poor condition, there was no such thing as drink driving, you could have as many as you wanted before driving and poor road lighting if any.

to be honest i dont have kids, but i would be happier them walking than cycling to be honest.

as for the excuse of abductions there was that years ago too. so its not really an excuse. if the kid lives within 1 mile of the school i would say it would do them no harm to have walked.

RoRoCullen

One word: Uncool.
I just graduated from an all-girl secondary school. In the six years Ive been there, Ive only ever seen 2 girls cycle. They did all this year and didn't give a hoot what people thought. I've a bike. I love my bike!! But I only live a five-minute walking distance from my school, so I didn't need to cycle.

Our school has been encouraging though, in the last two weeks they held a 'coffee morning' for the students who came in on bikes. And then loads of people starting doing it! I'd say 80 out of the 900 students. Which is still a vast improvement..

LeoB

One word comes to mind, Laziness.

Far to many kids are dropped to school and if you look at Rush the amount who are dropped off who live less than a mile from the school iis just plain silly. Then there are quite a few who are still walked to the door at 4th or 5th class. But I see a growing trend where kids are mollycoddled and I think if anyone on here is in their 40s kids are so different they might be good on P.Cs and have all the mod cons but we dont give them enogh space to be kids. A fall requires a trip to the Doc or swiftcare clinic

The blame for this I put firmly with the parents, Helicopter Mom's. Always hoovering over their little saints (I feel a hammering coming on). The roads in Rush are fine for cycling the one big problem is the drivers who dont give cyclists a chance and pull out in front of them but if the children are educated and coached into keeping safe they should nearly all be walking or cycling. My 8year old daughter cycles to school about 3 or 4 days a week she knows the rules about where to cross and not to talk to anyone, and my son walks home every day rain or shine my wife will take his very heavy bag off him. we live near the harbour and theyattend Rush N.S at millbank
You could count on one hand the amount of kids who cycle to the G.A.A club where I help, we have about 450 kids playing and training every week. They are nearly all dropped off. If there is a shower of rain you hear " ah is it not a bit wet for the kids to play"
Excuses excuses.

Corsendonk

Laziness exactly Leo!! Mainly on the part of a lot of parents who are unwilling to cycle or walk themselves to collect the younger kids. Cycling also might also reduce the need for speed ramps and reduce wear and tear on the ramps too!! Also I think the Irish motorist has grown so unused to seening cyclists on the road they almost panic at the sight of one now. The only chance they do see large groups of them is usually saturday mornings when you see middle aged men crammed into spandex outfits two sizes too small!!

Back again to my Belgium experience, belgium motorists and cyclist are so use to interacting that the need for cycle lanes is reduced except on the busiest roads. Places like Rush/Lusk are hardly crammed with traffic and the vast majority of students must be within cycling/walking distance of the schools.

BostonB

Our local school has a lots of kids who cycle. Though the cycle path ends just before a busy junction near the school, which is nuts. Despite this a lot of kids cycle in our area. Most cycle lanes in this country don't go anywhere. They are token gestures, that are badly designed. For example in D.15 there isn't a single cycle lane that leads directly into the Phoenix Park. Most stop and start all over the place. Nost cycle lanes do not integrate with junctions. So it completely confusing. cyclist don't know where to do, and motorists aren't expecting cyclist to sudden appear on the road.

The biggest problem is traffic. We have a culture of speeding, especially in urban areas, estates and its very intimidating when cycling. Its often less intimidating to cycle at peak times, when the traffic has to slow down, and is bumper to bumper. We have almost zero enforcement of speeding, and/or dangerous driving and that not the same in other countries.

If motorists were made to cycle their route to work once, they'd be a lot more careful about driving around cyclists afterwards.

dan_d

Right there with you leoB.

I'm originally from Lusk. The primary school in Lusk is fairly central. All the housing estates that currently exist around Lusk are accessible to the school IN SAFETY. There are at least 2 lollipop ladies for kids to cross the main roads in Lusk at. As a child I walked up and down to school everyday.

To be honest, unless you live into one of the fairly rural areas around Lusk, you should be completely ashamed of yourself if you're driving your child to school every day. No doubt I'll be criticised, but it's true.

Rush is similar, particularly for those estates nearer and in the town.

Milverton IS in the middle of nowhere, and I wouldn't be happy with kids cycling there on their own...the roads are fast and dangerous.

Skerries - primary schools are central, again no reason why kids can't cycle or at least walk to them, particularly from about the age of 8 upwards.

Swords - ditto. Unless you're in St Colmcille's and living in Glen Ellan or somewhere. That is a bit of a walk for a young child, but for older kids they should be able to cycle it.

As for secondary schools - don't even start. Although why would we expect our teenagers to be exerting any sort of effort when everything has been handed to them on a plate as children, and they've rarely had to expend any energy doing anything?? All these problems that people complain about - obesity etc, etc - in many cases, it's caused by their own parenting.

ParkRunner

I cycle around Balbriggan a fair bit but I don't think it would be safe for kids really. There is the odd cycle lane but only a tiny part of Balbriggan has cycle lanes that I'm aware of. Secondly, if you hit some of the potholes around you would be thrown off the bike, especially on the main street.

Another thing I have noticed around Balbriggan more from driving than cycling is a fair few junctions with impaired visibility, restricting what you can see coming. Drivers have to edge a metre or so onto the adjacent road to actually see what is coming in some parts, which causes cyclists to swerve, possibly into the path of the car behind them.

And then there is the weather. I still cycle despite all this to keep the fitness up though.

Corsendonk

After reading your post I have decided its much too dangereous for me to cycle and drive around Balbriggan.:) I shall miss going to Balbriggan, perhaps the paths are safe?

Eoineo

I'm not sure if that's sarcastic or not?

On a more serious note. Areas of Balbriggan are safe for a child to cycle to school - there's a "but" coming!

Children who have to go to school via Hamlet Lane are at risk either on a bicycle or on foot. The council are aware of it - LONG STORY - but it still hasn't been solved. There isn't a footpath, lights or road markings & it is the main road for children to come down from Brega etc if they are going to St Molaga's & also for children heading up to the Educate Together from Cardy Rock.

There is a cycle path to the North of the town. It starts and ends quite abruptly so unless you're either (a) happy for your child to cycle on the road or (b) happy for your child to cycle on the footpath - which can be narrow in places - you are left with the option of walking or car/bus transport.

If you are a competent cyclist you would be able to negotiate all of the road issues no problem but some children who are travelling unsupervised, sometimes in the dark - both on foot and on bicycle - aren't safe getting to/from schools if they live in certain estates.

That brings me to another bugbear of mine; which is children who cycle but who have no cycle-sense. In otherwords they haven't been taught how using the road is different on a bicycle, walking and driving a car. How to avoid potholes safely. How to use handsignals, wearing a helmet & high visibility clothing. Being able to cycle is one thing, being able to cycle safely is another.

ParkRunner

Eoineo wrote: »

There is a cycle path to the North of the town. It starts and ends quite abruptly so unless you're either (a) happy for your child to cycle on the road or (b) happy for your child to cycle on the footpath - which can be narrow in places - you are left with the option of walking or car/bus transport.

I have been on that cycle lane a fair bit and one part in particular of that I find dangerous. Just after Hamlet Lane heading towards the town, past the boarded up house there is a road leading to some estates (Bremore I think?). Basically cars coming out of that lane have the width of the narrow footpath of visibility between them and going through the cycle lane, which is nothing basically in terms of reacting to a bike flying past. I'm almost at a standstill when I cycle up to it but have seen children just whizzing across that road. Must get onto the council about it before something does happen!

LeoB

Eoineo wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's sarcastic or not?

That brings me to another bugbear of mine; which is children who cycle but who have no cycle-sense. In otherwords they haven't been taught how using the road is different on a bicycle, walking and driving a car. How to avoid potholes safely. How to use handsignals, wearing a helmet & high visibility clothing. Being able to cycle is one thing, being able to cycle safely is another.

You hit the nail on the head there. Safe cycling is an issue that needs to be tackled. Far to often you see kids cycle off footpaths or out of laneways without even looking.

I cycle from one end of Rush to the other most week ends with my Daughter who is 8, along the south shore to Rogerstown and back via Channel Rd and maybe through Kenure and back in the Skerries Road and you would be stunned at some of the driving. Some drivers just give very little room and overtake when its easier to just slow down for a few seconds on narrow parts of the road.

A few people looked at her arriving to school on her bike and you could sense the shock from them but we feel you cant keep kids in a bubble, they have to learn to keep safe and be a little more Independent.

One day she cycled up the wrong side of Sandy Rd and someone told me. She lost her bike for a week and learned a lesson.

Perhaps a few lesson in school on living and life skills based around kids being a bit more independent in a "cool" way. She can also pay bills at Post Office because we take the time to show her and go to shop for bread, milk etc, Its much the same with cycling safely

BostonB

I guess you can only make a bad mistake once.

LeoB

BostonB wrote: »

I guess you can only make a bad mistake once.

Agreed but we cant live our lives in an egg shell. This is part of the problem we have our kids over "protected" and half frightened of every day life.

BostonB

Speak for yourself, I make mine dig for coal, and hunt boar.

Corsendonk

I am thinking of starting a new thread from this, Is Fingal a safe place to live? What do you think? Reading the responses with the mind of an outsider I don't think you would want to move here. The roads are dangerous and poorly kept, too much traffic(which all that traffic to and from school doesnt help), bad drivers, possible abduction of kids, dreadful weather.

dsmythy

Corsendonk wrote: »

I am thinking of starting a new thread from this, Is Fingal a safe place to live? What do you think? Reading the responses with the mind of an outsider I don't think you would want to move here. The roads are dangerous and poorly kept, too much traffic(which all that traffic to and from school doesnt help), bad drivers, possible abduction of kids, dreadful weather.

Why not sure.

Beasty

Corsendonk wrote: »

I am thinking of starting a new thread from this, Is Fingal a safe place to live? What do you think? Reading the responses with the mind of an outsider I don't think you would want to move here. The roads are dangerous and poorly kept, too much traffic(which all that traffic to and from school doesnt help), bad drivers, possible abduction of kids, dreadful weather.

I think this is a very selective interpretation of the responses to your original question. No-one has suggested Fingal is any less safe than anywhere else in Ireland to live. I cycle around the area regularly, and can vouch for the state of the roads, and traffic on the busy roads. A review of recent threads will highlight concerns over abduction risks.

In fact, most of the responses have been supportive of encouraging more children to cycle to school.

The Skerries Cycling Initiative is an excellent example of how communities can support cycling. In addition to getting a cycle route around Ardgillan (which previously banned bicycles), they have received central funding to help put in place a cycling infrastructure for the area

Cycling has actually become much more popular in the past couple of years, and there is a knock-on effect, with more families encouraging their children to cycle. However having regularly experienced the issues with roads and traffic, I for one, would make sure my children are closely supervised until they reach an age and abilty which would allow them to cycle safely unsupervised

BostonB

Corsendonk wrote: »

I am thinking of starting a new thread from this, Is Fingal a safe place to live? What do you think? Reading the responses with the mind of an outsider I don't think you would want to move here. The roads are dangerous and poorly kept, too much traffic(which all that traffic to and from school doesnt help), bad drivers, possible abduction of kids, dreadful weather.

Thats too much of a leap road condition to safe to live. Also theres a massive range in living conditions across fingal. From caravans to massive mansions.

The Hill Billy

By all means start a new thread so this one doesn't go off-topic. But be clear what aspects of 'safety' in Fingal you wish to discuss or it could end up being a car-crash itself.

HB

Corsendonk

In fairness my statement should not have been confined to Fingal. The safety and condition of roads are perennial barriers to cycling in Ireland but I also think its a state of mind. Other european countries have a history of cycling within busy traffic/ city environments, we lost that in are rush to the second family car. We have also had a history of governments that didn't encourage cycling and a perception that you can only cycle unless there is a cycle lane provided. For some strange reason none of our lanes link up for any lenght except on old railway lines in the West of Ireland.

Can anyone tell me how many cyclists have been injuryed/killed on the Dublin City Public bikes scheme since its inception? Even with recent traffic management solutions in Dublin traffic is still very busy there, I even seen the bikes in use as far as the hill of Howth.

Beasty

Corsendonk wrote: »

In fairness my statement should not have been confined to Fingal. The safety and condition of roads are perennial barriers to cycling in Ireland but I also think its a state of mind. Other european countries have a history of cycling within busy traffic/ city environments, we lost that in are rush to the second family car. We have also had a history of governments that didn't encourage cycling and a perception that you can only cycle unless there is a cycle lane provided. For some strange reason none of our lanes link up for any lenght except on old railway lines in the West of Ireland.

Can anyone tell me how many cyclists have been injuryed/killed on the Dublin City Public bikes scheme since its inception? Even with recent traffic management solutions in Dublin traffic is still very busy there, I even seen the bikes in use as far as the hill of Howth.

Head over to the cycling forum if you wish to discuss the wider cycling infrastructure and Dublin Bikes Scheme (which does not, to my knowledge, publish accident stats, not that I understand the relevance given these bikes are not designed for children).

Beasty

BostonB

Cycling around fingal is nothing like cycling around belgium and its nothing like the same as when I went to school (in fingal). Traffic is much faster, theres more of it, and there a ton of more badly designed junctions to cross.

When I went to school many moons ago it was dangerous then, mainly because of the speed of cars. Hardly anyone cycled. My kids school has vastly more kids cycling than mine did. But its in the center of a housing area with some cycle paths, (if badly designed).

Compare like with like.

Eoineo

Corsendonk wrote: »

I am thinking of starting a new thread from this, Is Fingal a safe place to live? What do you think? Reading the responses with the mind of an outsider I don't think you would want to move here. The roads are dangerous and poorly kept, too much traffic(which all that traffic to and from school doesnt help), bad drivers, possible abduction of kids, dreadful weather.

A bit of a leap from your original question isn't it?

dan_d

Corsendonk wrote: »

I am thinking of starting a new thread from this, Is Fingal a safe place to live? What do you think? Reading the responses with the mind of an outsider I don't think you would want to move here. The roads are dangerous and poorly kept, too much traffic(which all that traffic to and from school doesnt help), bad drivers, possible abduction of kids, dreadful weather.

To be honest it's fairly typical of every area in Ireland...it's not exactly a stand alone case.

Corsendonk

Whatever happened the parents in this thread, they have the time to drop the kids in cars and pick them up, I doubt they all have jobs in the current climate. Why can't they cycle/walk to school with the kids and cycle/walk home with them after school. It might eat into there time but a daily cycle/walk to school might negate the need for one gym session or evening walking. As one poster pointed out alot of primary schools in Fingal are very centrally located in regard to schools, Lusk , Rush for examples. I am very aware that schools such as Milverton and Hedgestown are in isolated areas but in fairness there headcounts are alot lower so it would have greater effect to encourage any change in lifestyle in the large population schools.

The thread was raised to make people think and challenge themselves. I hope that at least one or two parents might cycle or walk to school with there kids rather than take the driving option all the time. Rush National School has had Health & Safety issues in the past with the high level of traffic caused by parents wanting to drop kids directly outside the school. They tried to encourage parents to park 100 metres away in the old church carpark and walk the kids in which has had mixed success, with parents drifting back to dropping kids outside the school. I might add that the vast majority of kids that attend that school are from the local area within 5 miles of the school. So as I said previously if this thread encourages one or two parents to walk/cycle with there kids we might have kids and parents a little more healthy, a little less damage to the enviroment and safer roads outside schools during starting and closing time.

Beasty

@Corsendonk

I'm not sure where you are based, but there is a keen and increasing cycling culture around Skerries. I would encourage members of other local communities to look at what the Skerries Cycling Initiative is doing, and hopefully establish similar initiatives.

I am all for encouraging as many people as possible (adults as well as children) to take up cycling, and witness the health (I have lost getting on for 35kg myself over the last 3 years, mainly through cycling) and environmental benefits. The more adults that cycle, the more kids will be encouraged to do the same. It does not have to be limited to cycling to school either - there are plenty of opportunities to get out on bikes at weekends, and in the summer evenings

BostonB

If you cycled you could care less about kids being driven to schools, as traffic wouldn't effect you. The only reason it would bother you, is if you are driving and get caught up in it.

If you cycled, your focus would be on something else, like junction design, poor road surface, and cycle paths and locking facilities at the school, somewhere for helmets, rain gear etc. Because you'd be seeing those problems daily.

Corsendonk

Beasty wrote: »

@Corsendonk

I'm not sure where you are based, but there is a keen and increasing cycling culture around Skerries. I would encourage members of other local communities to look at what the Skerries Cycling Initiative is doing, and hopefully establish similar initiatives.

Thanks for the link. Some very useful non-cycling info too on that link. I take it that the Skerries Cycling Initiative is not limited to Skerries? You seem to have some success already outside Skerries with cycling tracks in Ardgillan as previously mentioned by you.

Beasty

Corsendonk wrote: »

Thanks for the link. Some very useful non-cycling info too on that link. I take it that the Skerries Cycling Initiative is not limited to Skerries? You seem to have some success already outside Skerries with cycling tracks in Ardgillan as previously mentioned by you.

I am not proactively involved, but I know people who are. It's focus is on Skerries and the surrounding area - basically anyone who cycles in that area is likely to benefit, not just those living in Skerries

You will see there is a focus on education within schools, which would be specific to Skerries, however they are looking to improve other areas, such as commuting, which encompasses a much larger geographical area (I typically commute 60km on my bike or so whenever I can). They also have the support of FCC, and state they are looking to support cycling in Fingal generally

There is absolutely nothing to stop other communities setting up similar schemes - I am sure the individuals involved in Skerreis would be more than happy to share their experiences with like-minded organisations

scorpioishere

They are too lazy.

The Hill Billy

scorpioishere wrote: »

They are too lazy.

Thanks for your in-depth & insightful contribution. If that is all you can offer - you can 'pedal off' somewhere else.

HB
.

scorpioishere

Its true. They can get everything they want here. So y will they bother to cycle when their parents are driving them to school. May be they should pedal off themselves in september.