Elijah and John the Baptist.

JimiTime

Ok, This was sparked by the 'Reincarnation' thread.

What do you think about the whole Elijah/John the baptist connection? Any explainations I look at on line seem to come down to, 'he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah”. However, they leave it there, as if that shows that he wasn't Elijah. The obvious question, is what does it mean to have the spirit and power of Elijah?

The story of Elijah does not end in Death. As far as I am aware, there are two biblical incidents of people not dying, but rather being 'taken up'. Enoch being one and Elijah being the other. So, is it possible, that John the baptist was Elijah, in in a similar way that Jesus Christ was God?

What are your overall thoughts on the Elijah - John the Baptist connection?

padma

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, This was sparked by the 'Reincarnation' thread.

What do you think about the whole Elijah/John the baptist connection? Any explainations I look at on line seem to come down to, 'he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah”. However, they leave it there, as if that shows that he wasn't Elijah. The obvious question, is what does it mean to have the spirit and power of Elijah?

The story of Elijah does not end in Death. As far as I am aware, there are two biblical incidents of people not dying, but rather being 'taken up'. Enoch being one and Elijah being the other. So, is it possible, that John the baptist was Elijah, in in a similar way that Jesus Christ was God?

What are your overall thoughts on the Elijah - John the Baptist connection?

My overall thoughts would be to back up what Jesus says.

And he [John the Baptist] will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah. (Luke 1:17)

Skeptics claim that the above Bible verse affirms John to be merely a prophet who performed the same ministry as Elijah - not that John was actually the reincarnation of Elijah. But this is not what the verse actually says. In fact, the verse gives a perfect definition of reincarnation: the return of a person's spirit and power into another body. It is the spirit and power that reincarnates. Therefore this verse clearly states that John the Baptist had the spirit and power of Elijah. And this is exactly what reincarnation means. It does not get much clearer than this.
Although John carried the living spirit of Elijah he did not carry his conscious mind and memory. Reincarnation involves only the higher consciousness of the spirit. Because John did not have the conscious mind and past-life memories of Elijah, John denied being Elijah. With very few exceptions, nobody has a conscious memory of past lives. The following is the Bible passage that shows John denying that he is Elijah.

They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"He said, "I am not.""Are you the Prophet?"He answered, "No."Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"
John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, "Make straight the way for the Lord.""
Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
"I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie." (John 1:21-27)

Notice that the Pharisees questioning John were expecting the reincarnation of an Old Testament prophet. And John did not refute the concept of reincarnation when he stated his ignorance about having a past life as Elijah. But Jesus was not ignorant about John. Jesus knew better and said so in the plainest words possible:

This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist ... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matt. 11:11-15)

Jesus revealed John to be Elijah; but John denied it. Which of the two people are right - Jesus or John? The answer should be very clear. John's denial of his own past identity as Elijah does not mean he did not have a past life as Elijah. This is especially true when Jesus claimed that John was indeed Elijah.

SonOfAdam

see here for a comparison - I don't think it's really any different to saying someone has, for example, the 'spirit' of Timothy if they encourage others a lot - I've heard that one quite a bit but never took it to mean a reincarnation rather someone with the same calling or gift etc..

hivizman

I haven't got time to write a full comment, but it may also be worth thinking about Mark 8:27-30 and parallels (Matthew 16:13-20; Luke 9:18-21):

"Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages off Caesarea Philippi; and on the way he asked his disciples, 'Who do people say that I am?' And they answered him 'John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.' He asked them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Peter answered him, 'You are the Messiah.' And he sternly ordered them not to tell anyone about him."

So the idea that Elijah would come again was clearly a common belief. But this need not amount to reincarnation, for example, if the "spirit of Elijah" were to enter into someone (e.g., John the Baptist) who was already in existence (and possibly even an adult). In the case of Jesus, there was a heresy (Adoptionism) that claimed that Jesus had been born purely as a human, but acquired his divine nature later in life (at the time of his baptism, when the holy spirit descended on him). So John the Baptist could be Elijah through a form of adoption without having to be the reincarnation of Elijah.

I'm just proposing this as a hypothesis to debate, by the way, I don't actually agree with it. I certainly don't believe that mainstream Christianity (as opposed to Gnostic sects within Christianity) has ever accepted reincarnation.

SonOfAdam

padma wrote:

John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, "Make straight the way for the Lord.""

So, going by your own logic John could just have easily been Isaiah reincarnated - it's very easy to twist words to mean what you say they mean rather than what they actually mean

JimiTime

SonOfAdam wrote: »

So, going by your own logic John could just have easily been Isaiah reincarnated - it's very easy to twist words to mean what you say they mean rather than what they actually mean

This is potentially a very interesting topic, lets try be constructive. this is not about convincing PADMA that he/she is wrong, but rather trying to open up the floor to the explainations out there and seeing if we can come to any conclusions. Padma seems to have already come to his/her conclusions on the matter, lets just present the alternatives for the moment. If anyone trolls, or soapboxes we'll let the mods deal with it.

Sound ok?

Anyway, what you you think about it the question?

padma

SonOfAdam wrote: »

So, going by your own logic John could just have easily been Isaiah reincarnated - it's very easy to twist words to mean what you say they mean rather than what they actually mean

I don't understand your point son of adam, this is where John said in the same words that Isaiah the prophet said I am the voice in the wilderness etc.

Jesus said:

This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist ... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matt. 11:11-15)

hivizman

padma wrote: »

Notice that the Pharisees questioning John were expecting the reincarnation of an Old Testament prophet. And John did not refute the concept of reincarnation when he stated his ignorance about having a past life as Elijah. But Jesus was not ignorant about John. Jesus knew better and said so in the plainest words possible:

This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist ... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matt. 11:11-15)

I would be very surprised if the Pharisees expected the reincarnation of Elijah, though they could well have been expecting his reappearance - as Elijah ascended to heaven in bodily form (II Kings 2:11), it would be reasonable to expect that he would reappear (in satisfaction of the prophecy of Malachi 4:5) in the same bodily form. I am not aware that reincarnation was ever a belief of mainstream Judaism, even though it is part of the understanding of some mystical Jewish traditions such as Kabbalah.

In Matthew 11, John, imprisoned by Herod, sends messengers to Jesus to ask whether Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus does not say so explicitly, but tells the messengers to report back to John what they observe: the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, even the dead are raised. Jesus then asks the people why they went out to the wilderness to see John, concluding that it was because John was regarded by them as a prophet. Jesus quotes from Malachi's prophecy (interestingly, the same words that open Mark's gospel about sending a messenger who will prepare the way), and then discusses John, who is characterised as a "liminal" character on the border between the old age and the new age represented by Jesus. Finally, Jesus characterises John by stating "if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come" (NRSV). Listeners would have thought of Malachi's prophecy that Elijah would return before "the great and terrible day of the Lord" comes.

However, there is no reason to believe that "is" in this verse implies identity, that John = Elijah. It is more likely to be the "is" of analogy: John represents the Elijah predicted to come at a crucial juncture. Malachi had predicted that Elijah would be the "liminal" figure marking the break from the old age to the new age, Jesus declares that John has fulfilled the role of the "liminal" figure, so in that analogical sense John "is" Elijah.

Fanny Cradock

Well said.

padma

hivizman wrote: »

In Matthew 11, John, imprisoned by Herod, sends messengers to Jesus to ask whether Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus does not say so explicitly, but tells the messengers to report back to John what they observe: the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, even the dead are raised. Jesus then asks the people why they went out to the wilderness to see John, concluding that it was because John was regarded by them as a prophet. Jesus quotes from Malachi's prophecy (interestingly, the same words that open Mark's gospel about sending a messenger who will prepare the way), and then discusses John, who is characterised as a "liminal" character on the border between the old age and the new age represented by Jesus. Finally, Jesus characterises John by stating "if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come" (NRSV). Listeners would have thought of Malachi's prophecy that Elijah would return before "the great and terrible day of the Lord" comes.

However, there is no reason to believe that "is" in this verse implies identity, that John = Elijah. It is more likely to be the "is" of analogy: John represents the Elijah predicted to come at a crucial juncture. Malachi had predicted that Elijah would be the "liminal" figure marking the break from the old age to the new age, Jesus declares that John has fulfilled the role of the "liminal" figure, so in that analogical sense John "is" Elijah.

There is reason to believe that this verse implies identity, plenty of reason. It seems like it is one of the passages where Jesus clearly states it.

This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist ... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matt. 11:11-15)

If you are willing to accept it

SonOfAdam

Would you like to quote Matt 11 again ? From reading your posts I have learned that predestination proves preexistance, original sin proves reincarnation, John is Elijah, words mean whatever you deem them to and an entrenched position is just that !

padma

SonOfAdam wrote: »

Would you like to quote Matt 11 again ? From reading your posts I have learned that predestination proves preexistance, original sin proves reincarnation, John is Elijah, words mean whatever you deem them to and an entrenched position is just that !

And likewise.

Then there is the parralells of Divine justice and karma, which according to these laws is close to what happened to both Elijah and John the baptist.

"Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there." (1 Kings 18:40)
"Now Ahab told Jezebel everything Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword." (1 Kings 19:1)

Having all the priests of Baal beheaded seems like an incredible injustice on Elijah's part. This may explain why Elijah had to pay the karmic debt for this injustice by reincarnating as John the Baptist and having his own head cut off:

"Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted and had John beheaded in the prison." (Matt. 14:6-10)

Because Elijah had people beheaded, the law of "eye for an eye" and "reaping what we sow" demanded that Elijah be beheaded. This is a good example of how those who live by the sword will die by the sword - if not in the same lifetime then in another
According to the Bible, divine justice demands that sinners pay for their own sins. Jesus taught this when he declared:

All who take the sword will perish by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)If any one slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. (Rev. 13:10)

Common sense should tell us that everyone who lives by the sword (a life of crime for example) do not always die by the sword. A vast multitude of people throughout history have gotten away with their crimes. In fact, this is another apparent injustice that some people even use to deny the very existence of God. This statement from Jesus is completely absurd and ignorant unless reincarnation is true. For the divine justice that Jesus refers to as being true, people who don't pay for their sins in their life must pay for them in a future life. This fact also applies to the man born blind.
Jesus also taught this law of divine justice in his parables:

In anger his master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. (Matt. 18: 34-35)

This law of divine justice was also taught by Paul:

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A person reaps what he sows. (Gal. 6:7)

This is the law of divine justice is also found in the Old Testament:

Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. (Exod. 21:24-25)

This law of divine justice is practically a universal religious concept. In eastern religions, this law of divine justice is known as karma This law of divine justice is equal to the concept of reincarnation. This law of living by the sword and dying by the sword is the principle of reincarnation. In other words, this law of divine justice is the law of reincarnation.
Only reincarnation can satisfy the divine justice of reaping what we sow, an eye for an eye, live by the sword and die by the sword. This universal law of God explains why some people are born under favorable conditions and others are born under unfavorable conditions. It is the very mechanics of birth and rebirth. Reincarnation is the missing link - the long lost doctrine - the key to understanding the secret and mystical teachings of Jesus.
This law of God is the key to the following parable of Jesus:

Again, it [the kingdom of heaven] will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. (Matt. 25:14-15)

This idea that God gives people varying amounts of abilities at birth - each according to his ability - is the heart of reincarnation and the law of divine justice. The great Church Father Origen used this very parable to teach pre-existence and reincarnation.

The soul has neither beginning nor end… [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives. (Origen, De Principiis)

When Origen used the parable of the talents to refer to reincarnation and pre-existence he was not introducing some foreign religious concept into the Christian religion. He was merely expressing what is described throughout the Bible and believed by early Christians to be one of the secret teachings of Jesus.
Some early Christian sects not only believed that Jesus paid the debt of divine justice for Adam's original sin, they also believed that Adam was one of many reincarnations of Jesus. These early Christian sects were called the Ebionites the Elkasaites and the Nazarites
Even the concept of Jesus paying the debt from Adam's sin makes more sense if reincarnation is assumed to be true.
This law of divine justice is so universal that it even applies to science. It is Isaac Newton's law of cause and effect. It is also known as a law in physics: For every action there is an equal and opposing reaction and what goes up must come down. In fact, this law of divine justice is the very law of nature. Breaking the law of divine justice is very similar to breaking the law of gravity. The result is impersonal. Both are a transgression of the law of nature. Because of this we cannot blame God for the apparent injustices that happen to us. Like the law of gravity, if we go against this law of divine justice it is completely our fault and due to our ignorance of divine justice.

SonOfAdam

Soapboxing much ?

JimiTime

padma wrote: »

And likewise.

Then there is the parralells of Divine justice and karma, which according to these laws is close to what happened to both Elijah and John the baptist.

"Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there." (1 Kings 18:40)
"Now Ahab told Jezebel everything Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword." (1 Kings 19:1)

Having all the priests of Baal beheaded seems like an incredible injustice on Elijah's part. This may explain why Elijah had to pay the karmic debt for this injustice by reincarnating as John the Baptist and having his own head cut off:

Ok, stop the lights. First of all, it looks like you are copy and pasting all this from a site. That is not good for discussion. By all means reason your claims with references, but we don't want a copy and paste fest.

Second of all, Karma? Being incarnated as John the baptist a punishment for slaughtering the Ba'al prophets. Not a chance. i seen a very distubing programme recently where some African 'pastors' had fused 'christian' teaching with tribal superstions etc. I sense that what you are presenting us with here is some kind of Eastern Mystic - Christian fusion.

padma

just having a discussion about areas of interest,so why do most people have a negative reaction to reincarnation is beyond me, yet thats the way of humans.

padma

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, stop the lights. First of all, it looks like you are copy and pasting all this from a site. That is not good for discussion. By all means reason your claims with references, but we don't want a copy and paste fest.

Second of all, Karma? Being incarnated as John the baptist a punishment for slaughtering the Ba'al prophets. Not a chance. i seen a very distubing programme recently where some African 'pastors' had fused 'christian' teaching with tribal superstions etc. I sense that what you are presenting us with here is some kind of Eastern Mystic - Christian fusion.

Its a perfect example of the law of divine justice at play. The one dodgy area of Elijah's life, being repaid in his future existence where the prophet played out his role by being beheaded.

SonOfAdam

don't think discussion is the right word there - but why should that surprise ?

JimiTime

padma wrote: »

Its a perfect example of the law of divine justice at play. The one dodgy area of Elijah's life, being repaid in his future existence where the prophet played out his role by being beheaded.

Could you tell me what we are dealing with here? Is this a personal invention or are you a member of a church with such doctrines?

We are told already how divine justice is to take its course, and the above sure aint it. Now I'm all for presenting the different reasonings for the Elijah/John the baptist scenario, but I'm detecting that you are reading from contradicting pages.

padma

JimiTime wrote: »

Could you tell me what we are dealing with here? Is this a personal invention or are you a member of a church with such doctrines?

We are told already how divine justice is to take its course, and the above sure aint it. Now I'm all for presenting the different reasonings for the Elijah/John the baptist scenario, but I'm detecting that you are reading from contradicting pages.

I am a catholic who has an open mind to the teachings of Jesus.
If the saying live by the sword you die by the sword you are implying that those who have lived by the sword yet died through natural reasons on the day of judgement they will die again but by the sword this time. Where is the sense in that, it would clearly mean that they died twice thus meaning they have reincarnated.

Where is the contradictions? Please refute what has been said in previous posts and we can move on.

hivizman

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, stop the lights. First of all, it looks like you are copy and pasting all this from a site. That is not good for discussion. By all means reason your claims with references, but we don't want a copy and paste fest.

Padma's text appears to come from a document called Reincarnation and the Bible, which appears on the following sites:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-A-Christian-But-I-Believe-In-Reincarnation/1131853

http://www.thc-ministry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3618

The third link is to "The Hawai'i Cannabis Ministry". Need one say more?

padma

Seems like sneering is the way here on boards and trying to link somebody to some christian sect simply because one is able to find out stuff that one has an interest in. Come with refutable evidence instead of lurking in the shadows of sneers. It may help to overcome differences of opinions or at least help you to stand by your beliefs.

Fanny Cradock

padma wrote: »

just having a discussion about areas of interest,so why do most people have a negative reaction to reincarnation is beyond me, yet thats the way of humans.

Because this is the Christianity forum, not the Hindu forum.

BTW, plagiarism is specifically prohibited in the charter.

padma

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Because this is the Christianity forum, not the Hindu forum.

BTW, plagiarism is specifically prohibited in the charter.

If that is the case Fanny Cradock no-one here has the right to quote passages from the holy book. Thus I take back all that has been said.

Fanny Cradock

padma wrote: »

If that is the case Fanny Cradock no-one here has the right to quote passages from the holy book. Thus I take back all that has been said.

You might want to clarify the difference between plagiarising and quoting. The latter is perfectly acceptable if used in moderation. The former is not acceptable and it hasn't been acceptable since before your time on this forum. I'm not sure why you are taking the huff.

hivizman

Could I try to calm things down by apologising if I gave the impression of sneering at the views on whether Christianity is consistent with reincarnation that were being expressed on this and on another thread.

However, I am not aware of any mainstream Christian view that regards reincarnation, on the Hindu (or Pythagorean) model, often referred to as metempsychosis or transmigration of souls, as in any way consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

Christian teaching incorporates a form of reincarnation in its literal sense of "re-embodiment" - more usually referred to as "resurrection of the body". This is part of the Christian creeds. What it means is that Christians believe that our souls will be raised in new bodies, which will be real and substantial but unlike our current earthly bodies, at the end time when heaven and earth come together. Whether everyone will be re-embodied in this way or only those "who are in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit" (to quote Tom Wright, Surprised by Hope, SPCK, 2007, p. 171) is not certain. but there is a widespread belief in continuity of identity, that is, that following the resurrection of the body we will still know who we "were" as in our current life. Hence this differs from many, but not all, concepts of reincarnation, where the phenomenon of anamnesis, as proposed by Socrates, applies - this means that we forget everything about our past lives through the shock of birth.

Since this is the mainstream Christian view, then on the Christianity forum I consider that it is up to those who believe the mainstream view is wrong to provide arguments and evidence to refute it, rather than the other way around. My experience as a poster in this forum for several years is that people enjoy a genuine debate, but are less excited by being asked to respond to slabs of material cut and pasted (without acknowledgement) from other websites.