McDowell highlights 'gap in the market' in Irish politics

Aitor

For lo, a wise man did stand up before a collection of Southside Dublin worthies, and he did say, "Biffo, let my people go!" And the people saw this, and they said that this was good, except for the Unions, cause they hate Michael McDowell.

Yes, former justice minister Michael "Mad Dog" McDowell seems to be coming back, but he is being remarkably coy about in what manner exactly his reemergence will occur. He seems to rule out his running for office in the linked article, and yet his phrasing

“I love my country and I am deeply ambitious for it, but at this point I have to say with this outcome at this stage of my career it makes it very clear that, as far as I am concerned, my period of public life as a public representative is over.”

would seem to leave open the possibility of acting as Chairman of a new party, or of being "encouraged" to run for Fine Gael (at this stage of my career ... as far as I am concerned).

I would dearly love to see a new liberal party start up, but would McDowell merely sink such a movement given the divisive nature of his legacy? Or would he be the cornerstone around which a mighty structure might be constructed?

The_Minister

There have been rumours of a joint venture between McDowell and Cox for a while now.

If anything happens, McDowell must:
(1) Not be leader.
(2) Keep showing the more humble side of himself.
(3) Actually be vocal on liberalism. It isn't enough to cloud it in legalese, it has to be blunt and open.

bijapos

The_Minister wrote: »

There have been rumours of a joint venture between McDowell and Cox for a while now.

If anything happens, McDowell must:
(1) Not be leader.
(2) Keep showing the more humble side of himself.
(3) Actually be vocal on liberalism. It isn't enough to cloud it in legalese, it has to be blunt and open.

I would agree with the above, not that I would vote for him. But what is he trying to set up? Another version of the PD's? And who is he trying to attract as running mates, it would need some defections to get some big names in there. Its possible that some FFers will defect in panic at losing their seats but that would be the PD's all over again. If they do run they would take a good few votes off FG, and maybe some recent defections to Labour from FF but it sounds like the same old faces again with a different name.

Having said that what Ireland does need imo is a Social Democratic party based on those in the Nordic countries, but I don't see McDowell setting up something like that.

mike65

Hard to see such a party managing to carve a niche right now, pissed off Green voters will either sit on their hands or vote for Labour, FG need every vote they can get and will be strongly out to keep the current likely voters onboard, FF are FF and hate McDowell, Cox etc anyway. SFers are hardly going to back any such party either. Labour are laughing. In Dublin they will also be scrapping with the likes of People Before Profit for the "well heeled liberal but feeling guilty about it" vote.

Red_Marauder

Aitor wrote: »

He seems to rule out his running for office in the linked article, and yet his phrasing

“I love my country and I am deeply ambitious for it, but at this point I have to say with this outcome at this stage of my career it makes it very clear that, as far as I am concerned, my period of public life as a public representative is over.”

would seem to leave open the possibility of acting as Chairman of a new party, or of being "encouraged" to run for Fine Gael (at this stage of my career ... as far as I am concerned).

In fairness i think that quote was from the 2007 general election, and the statement was made in the RDS when McDowell lost his seat.

I would dearly love to see a new liberal party start up, but would McDowell merely sink such a movement given the divisive nature of his legacy? Or would he be the cornerstone around which a mighty structure might be constructed?

Maybe McDowell is the new Obama. While I was never a PD, to my mind, he actually represents the kind of politician I would like to see running this island - articulate, opinionated, not afraid of controversy, educated and patriotic, a man who genuinely does love his country.
Personally, i don't agree with him, and i don't like all of his politics, but he certainly is the type of politician this country needs.

imme

Why all the subterfuge and obfuscation?
Oh I almost forgot, he's a lawyer.:rolleyes:

Why doesn't he just get on with it whatever he's going to do.

I wonder what the outcome will be. Is there enough electability in a man who worked wonders for our justice system:
-the Garda Reserve
-Thornton Hall
-new Criminal Courts of Justice building

FlutterinBantam

He had a lot of good ideas when in power, but didn't bring the people with him.

Aitor

Red_Marauder wrote: »

In fairness i think that quote was from the 2007 general election, and the statement was made in the RDS when McDowell lost his seat.

Maybe McDowell is the new Obama. While I was never a PD, to my mind, he actually represents the kind of politician I would like to see running this island - articulate, opinionated, not afraid of controversy, educated and patriotic, a man who genuinely does love his country.
Personally, i don't agree with him, and i don't like all of his politics, but he certainly is the type of politician this country needs.

Fair play... if I'm going to post a story, I should read really, shouldn't I!

OhNoYouDidn't

Why do people think McDowell is a liberal?

In justice he was ultra conservative and repressive if anything. FG is his ideoligical home, but they won't have him after he jumped ship for the failed PD experiment.

OhNoYouDidn't

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Maybe McDowell is the new Obama. While I was never a PD, to my mind, he actually represents the kind of politician I would like to see running this island - articulate, opinionated, not afraid of controversy, educated and patriotic, a man who genuinely does love his country.
.

You could say the same about Gerry Adams...

OhNoYouDidn't

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

He had a lot of good ideas when in power, but didn't bring the people with him.

Such as?

Aitor

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why do people think McDowell is a liberal?

In justice he was ultra conservative and repressive if anything. FG is his ideoligical home, but they won't have him after he jumped ship for the failed PD experiment.

I see your point, but I suppose they mean liberal in the European sense (i.e. the individual is sacrosanct, and we should all rise and fall on our own merits.) By that definition, personal property and safety are sacred, and so the state should heavily punish those who contravene the law. Plus, criminals, by being heavily punished, were being forced to face up to their own responsibilities.

nacho libre

It's odd how he despises Sinn Fein yet is quite republican himself. Personally i liked the guy until he let himself down by backing Ahern, when the wise and proper thing to do, for a man who was identified with being principled and honest, was walk. Still we all have errors of judgement. So, while i don't agree with most of his political views, it would be good to have a smart guy like him back in politics.

Nodin

The_Minister wrote: »

There have been rumours of a joint venture between McDowell and Cox for a while now.

If anything happens, McDowell must:
(1) Not be leader.
(2) Keep showing the more humble side of himself.
(3) Actually be vocal on liberalism. It isn't enough to cloud it in legalese, it has to be blunt and open.

Few would get in a boat with McDowell and those that did would want the patience of a saint. In the event that McDowell was stranded alone a desert Island, the only thing you could predict was frequent arguments.

Theres no room for him in FG certainly. Poor oul Enda has enough to manage.

The_Minister wrote: »

(2) Keep showing the more humble side of himself..

...or keep listening to whoevers advising him to act that way, which is more likely than the emergence of humility at this late stage of his existence.

fontanalis

Red_Marauder wrote: »

In fairness i think that quote was from the 2007 general election, and the statement was made in the RDS when McDowell lost his seat.

Maybe McDowell is the new Obama. While I was never a PD, to my mind, he actually represents the kind of politician I would like to see running this island - articulate, opinionated, not afraid of controversy, educated and patriotic, a man who genuinely does love his country.
Personally, i don't agree with him, and i don't like all of his politics, but he certainly is the type of politician this country needs.

Maybe you're right and he would be an underwhelming anti climatic leader who shouldn't have pretended he was Harry Potter and could solve massive problems.

murphaph

Why should he act humbly if it's not in his nature? I prefer an honest picture of who I'm voting for.

McDowell was one of the few politicians I was sad to see go. The current bunch of mediocre sh!te in the Dail (Mary Coughlan now has his old job FFS!!) are not a patch on him.

I guess a lot of Irish voters hate smart people though...

mikemac

I'd like to see him back.

Probably the best debater in the Dail and has strong views and principles even if you don't agree with them.
Better to have him in the Dail then some anonymous backbencher from any party who does very little.

Seems to have an ability to turn off people and have been rejected at the polls a number of times. Not a "man of the people" anyway, voters get what they want and probably want a friendly, personable TD who fights for their constituency and not someone who spends their time on national issues and legislation.
But what is the Dail for after all

But at least he'd speak up and get his views out there.

PeterIanStaker

We're better off without him. The nicest thing I could say about him was that he was a blunt instrument. As for his "patriotism" in his defeat speech, I think he misread "I love my constituency . ." as "country"

Denerick

Whatever you can say about McDowell, you can't claim that he's mediocre.

Ireland is inundated with uncharismatic, authoritarian and mediocre teachers in our political class. At least the man has intelligence. I don't really agree with his politics, but I recognise having men of his intellectual prowess in the political system will be good for the Irish Republic.

blue_steel

Completely disagree with everything McDowell stood for. But at least he stood for something. Would take him over the cabal of banality that is FG/FF anyday.

irishh_bob

murphaph wrote: »

Why should he act humbly if it's not in his nature? I prefer an honest picture of who I'm voting for.

McDowell was one of the few politicians I was sad to see go. The current bunch of mediocre sh!te in the Dail (Mary Coughlan now has his old job FFS!!) are not a patch on him.

I guess a lot of Irish voters hate smart people though...

no , they hate people who dont wear thier smarts light

not saying i agree with them btw

View

Well, if you look at how our political parties stack up wrt to the European Parliament, the only obvious "gap in the market" is on the extreme right. Personally, I am happy to see that Ireland has such a gap.

The_Minister

View wrote: »

Well, if you look at how our political parties stack up wrt to the European Parliament, the only obvious "gap in the market" is on the extreme right. Personally, I am happy to see that Ireland has such a gap.

Are you sure?

In Europe there are :
Christian Democrats (FG)
Social Democrats: (Lab)
Socialists: (Socialists)
Populist: (FF)
Greens: (Greens)
Liberals: (???)

Liberals are the second-biggest group in Europe - we have no-one validly in that category.

Einhard

It's one thing to take a principled approach when in opposition and when going before the electorate, it's another to stick to those principles when in government, and when the consequences of doing so might be politically unpalatable. The PDs and McDowell were guilty of abandoning their principles for the sake of short term political gain, and it was their undoing. They couldn't continue to claim to be fiscally conservative after doggedly supporting the fiscal train wreck that was the Ahern era. If MdDowell does set up a new party, or if one is established independenetly of him, hopefully the lessons of the PDs demise will be learned, and seats around the cabinet table will not becoming the guiding ideal, for which everything else is sacrificed. Then we'd have a party worthy of support.


BTW, just curious as to what other posters think McDowell stood for?

Dob74

The_Minister wrote: »

Are you sure?

In Europe there are :
Christian Democrats (FG)
Social Democrats: (Lab)
Socialists: (Socialists)
Populist: (FF)
Greens: (Greens)
Liberals: (???)

Liberals are the second-biggest group in Europe - we have no-one validly in that category.

Fianna Fail are now members of the Liberal grouping. After 10 years of coalition the PD's converted them.

As for McDowell's gap in the market, what a load of crap. FF and FG follow almost 100% of PD policy. If he doesn't want Labour a major part in the next government he should be asking for a FF/FG coalition. The civil war is over.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why do people think McDowell is a liberal?

In justice he was ultra conservative and repressive if anything. FG is his ideoligical home, but they won't have him after he jumped ship for the failed PD experiment.

1.McDowell revolutionised the Law of Evidence in his final days to ensure a safer and more active system prevails when it comes to dealing with criminals.

2.He was a man who stressed "Rights and Responsibilities". Yes, he banned things like Happy Hour promotions, however, he was active in pushing for All Night boozing, in the context of Cafe Bars, he succeeded in abolishing the Groceries Order, which made Alcohol cheaper, making it more available. He also sought the sale of Alcohol in places like filling stations etc.

3.He stood up to the IRA and the insurgents in Sinn Fein. Shutting up a party which is economically illiterate, and wholly regressive, was a complete success. It is important to remember that the likes of Sinn Fein have stood behind the murderers of Gerry McCabe, and have openly declared support for them. They are a scourage and McDowell highlighted that.

4.Thornton Hall. Prima Facie, that appears to be a flawed project. However, it appears that it is on the cusp of going ahead. A super prison is exactly what Ireland needs if we wish to dole out larger sentences, engage in prisoner rehabilitation, and get prisoners working, rather then idol. Would you prefer they remain in Mountjoy living in their own excreta ?

5.He gave people the right to have their say on the pressing matter of Immigration in 2004. This was socially liberal in a democracy, and it was economically liberal, as its passage guaranteed a large saving to the taxpayer, which was liable to be paid out if the referendum on citizenship had not passed. It also gave the people a chance to have their say on what the courts had decided in Lobe v Osyande in 2003

He is not ultra-conservative. That is an ignorant comment on your part. He is a liberal who believes in rights and responsibilities. How one lives their life, must be within this "two way street paradigm". "Left liberals", which you seem to consider as the true embodyment of liberalism, are socialists or de facto hippies. The choose to ignore the consequences of people's actions, when it comes to an economic sphere. They dont understand that people would be better off building nations, and states, rather then leeching of existing ones. McDowell is a liberal in the classical and European context. He is not the Ivan Bacik type of liberal (which I dont recognise as liberal at all), or the American type of Liberal, which is left wing.

Essexboy

The_Minister wrote: »

Are you sure?

In Europe there are :
Christian Democrats (FG)
Social Democrats: (Lab)
Socialists: (Socialists)
Populist: (FF)
Greens: (Greens)
Liberals: (???)

Liberals are the second-biggest group in Europe - we have no-one validly in that category.

Marian Harkin is a member of the ALDE group although whether she is a genuine liberal is open to doubt.

Wino82

always thought he was hateful little cretin. whatever you think of the greens and the propping up of cowen, gormley has got some useful imaginative stuff through in the last few years

I don't like him. But I'd vote for him.

Lockstep

Het-Field wrote: »

1
5.He gave people the right to have their say on the pressing matter of Immigration in 2004. This was socially liberal in a democracy, and it was economically liberal, as its passage guaranteed a large saving to the taxpayer, which was liable to be paid out if the referendum on citizenship had not passed. It also gave the people a chance to have their say on what the courts had decided in Lobe v Osyande in 2003

I'm recently back from a 12 hour shift so i could be thinkng of something else (not thinking straight right now) but are you referring to the 2004 referendum?If you are, then you're being extremely misleading. Amendments to Bunreacht na hÉireann)can only be made by referendum, (such as amending Articles 2 and 3)
This isn't a case of McDowell acting liberal and giving us "rights", he was doing something that he was obliged to by law.
I personally don't think politicians deserve praise when they act constitutionally. For him to have done otherwise would have been utterly illegal and anti-constitutional.

Red_Marauder

fontanalis wrote: »

Maybe you're right and he would be an underwhelming anti climatic leader who shouldn't have pretended he was Harry Potter and could solve massive problems.

Not to get off topic, but the problem here isn't pretending you're Harry Potter. The problem is people who actually believe in a Harry Potter type of leadership.

These are the same people who look back at JFK and Michael Collins like they never made political blunders in their lives - it's a revisionist and redundant approach to seeking out political leadership, and one that will always end in disappointment. If McDowell weere to provide the country with a Clann na Poblachta type of alternative now, he could be viewed very favourably indeed by history, and by the same opponents who now write off the possibility of a new and popular alternative.

Just stop expecting Harry Potter.

Liam Byrne

feelingstressed wrote: »

Probably the best debater in the Dail and has strong views and principles even if you don't agree with them.

But at least he'd speak up and get his views out there.

I used to think exactly this - and admire him even when I disagreed with him - until he rolled over on Ahern's then emerging finances and corruption.

Apparently his principles can be foregone when he feels like it.

RATM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I used to think exactly this - and admire him even when I disagreed with him - until he rolled over on Ahern's then emerging finances and corruption.

Apparently his principles can be foregone when he feels like it.

Agree with this totally. When he got dumped in 2007 I must admit I was chuffed, especially after he got hammered by Gormley over his smear campaign during the infamous incident in Ranelagh.

Another great debater in that Dail was Joe Higgins. His tongue-lashings, turns of phrase and similes were pure entertainment.

Although I don't agree with a lot of what Higgins or McDowell had to say I feel it is healthy for democracy to have politicans like them, with true passion and conviction in their beliefs. And because of this I hope both of them make it back to the Dail next time out.

evercloserunion

Eh, that "gap" is there for a reason. It's not like the people want a PD-type government but have no one in that vein to vote for; quite the opposite. This country is crawling with right-wing nutjobs who in fact massively influenced economic policy for years but were firmly rejected in the 2007 GE (and again in the 2010 Euros, if you count Libertas).

irishh_bob

evercloserunion wrote: »

Eh, that "gap" is there for a reason. It's not like the people want a PD-type government but have no one in that vein to vote for; quite the opposite. This country is crawling with right-wing nutjobs who in fact massively influenced economic policy for years but were firmly rejected in the 2007 GE (and again in the 2010 Euros, if you count Libertas).

care to list some of theese right wing nutjobs ????

Liam Byrne

RATM wrote: »

Agree with this totally.

I feel it is healthy for democracy to have politicans like them, with true passion and conviction in their beliefs.

OK, consider me confused.

How does someone who does a complete u-turn indicate "passion and conviction in their beliefs" ?

If you agreed with me totally, then you'd believe that Irish politics is better off with less u-turning politicians who bluster one opinion and implement the opposite.

imme

This is how I see the mooted return of McDowell the 'Watchdog of Fianna Fail', "one party government no thanks", and all that!

He proved useless as a watchdog and pretty much useless as Minister for Justice, it's funny to read his Wikipedia page and see his tenure there broken down, his lack of achievement of well anything much. Being a lawyer he's able to talk, that seems to be all though. He was one of the most illiberal Minister for Law Reform we've ever had.

As AG it was McDowell who recommended that the failed Office of The Financial Regulator be established.

He's a politicial junkie so it seems, he can't keep away. His yo-yo career is ended by the electorate so he walks away, then comes back, then announces he's retiring from active politicial life, then sort of announces he wants back in.

I'm reminded of the time he attacked Richard Bruton and called him the "Joseph Goebbels of propaganda..." and said that in achievements that he was 'knee high to.." him. It seemed so immature and petulant.

Please stay where you are Michael, write a few books or something.

johnnyskeleton

Dob74 wrote: »

Fianna Fail are now members of the Liberal grouping. After 10 years of coalition the PD's converted them.

This is often said but I don't think it is right. In fact, the converse is more probably true that during their periods of government with FF the PDs became much more like FF than FF did like the PDs. The areas that they did have influence over FF were areas such as crime and immigration, but economically and in terms of parish pump politics by the end the PDs were just FF junior.

So the party line when they disbanded was that there was no longer any need for them as the other parties had become just like them. But then why are there such strong calls for a right wing small government party at the moment? It would be much more honest to say that they became more like the other parties than the other parties became more like them.

Essexboy

imme wrote: »

This is how I see the mooted return of McDowell the 'Watchdog of Fianna Fail', "one party government no thanks", and all that!

He proved useless as a watchdog and pretty much useless as Minister for Justice, it's funny to read his Wikipedia page and see his tenure there broken down, his lack of achievement of well anything much. Being a lawyer he's able to talk, that seems to be all though. He was one of the most illiberal Minister for Law Reform we've ever had.

As AG it was McDowell who recommended that the failed Office of The Financial Regulator be established.

He's a politicial junkie so it seems, he can't keep away. His yo-yo career is ended by the electorate so he walks away, then comes back, then announces he's retiring from active politicial life, then sort of announces he wants back in.

I'm reminded of the time he attacked Richard Bruton and called him the "Joseph Goebbels of propaganda..." and said that in achievements that he was 'knee high to.." him. It seemed so immature and petulant.

Please stay where you are Michael, write a few books or something.

Yes!

johnnyskeleton

Het-Field wrote: »

1.McDowell revolutionised the Law of Evidence in his final days to ensure a safer and more active system prevails when it comes to dealing with criminals.

How so? He managed to get a few new criminal acts passed, but there wasn't much of a change after that. The biggest changes have come in the last year by the FF/Greens government.

Het-Field wrote: »

3.He stood up to the IRA and the insurgents in Sinn Fein. Shutting up a party which is economically illiterate, and wholly regressive, was a complete success. It is important to remember that the likes of Sinn Fein have stood behind the murderers of Gerry McCabe, and have openly declared support for them. They are a scourage and McDowell highlighted that.

Yet during that period SF have gone from strength to strength while the PDs fell apart. In terms of what counts in politics (i.e. votes) it certainly seems like SF won that confrontation.

Het-Field wrote: »

4.Thornton Hall. Prima Facie, that appears to be a flawed project. However, it appears that it is on the cusp of going ahead. A super prison is exactly what Ireland needs if we wish to dole out larger sentences, engage in prisoner rehabilitation, and get prisoners working, rather then idol. Would you prefer they remain in Mountjoy living in their own excreta ?

A new prison is badly needed, but the costs to date of what has only been a very expensive field in North County Dublin seems excessive. We could probably buy land in the midlands and build a prison right now for what we paid for the Thornton Hall site.

Het-Field wrote: »

5.He gave people the right to have their say on the pressing matter of Immigration in 2004. This was socially liberal in a democracy, and it was economically liberal, as its passage guaranteed a large saving to the taxpayer, which was liable to be paid out if the referendum on citizenship had not passed. It also gave the people a chance to have their say on what the courts had decided in Lobe v Osyande in 2003

That was socially and economically conservative. Socially liberal policies encourage things like immigration and the right to nationality. Social conservaties on the other hand favour closed borders and lesser rights for those to be considered of lesser pedigree. Again, the economically liberal thing is to have completely open borders so that people can travel to where the work is thus reducing wage demands and allowing the best workers to do the work. Economically conservative policies discourage immigration so that wages can be kept artificially high and there is less competition for each job.

It was also, as KOTJ points out, a referendum caused by political pressure from other EU states because of the Chen case. FF quite correctly realised that it wouldn't get them any votes and could lose them a lot of votes, so they let McD champion that cause.