Phantom Bidder strikes again

tradtshirt

OK so i know i'm mad to buy a gaff at the moment etc.
but i spotted a gaff 6 weeks ago for €350k, and after viewing was told there was a bid of 300.
so i went 305
told of a bid 310
so i went 315
told of a bid 320
so i went 325 - sale agreed
all this takes a month!

so then i orders me survey, which takes 2 weeks. in the meantime contracts are drawn up and sent on to my solicitor etc.

2 days ago the agent calls me to say another bid "from overseas" for 335k - but the vendors were sticking with me cause i have the cash ready.


yesterday i call agent to say i just got survey and it contains some bad news, theres a couple of big issues with the gaff - so i reduced my offer to 295k, fully expecting them to tell me to clear off and go with the 335k bidder.


this morning i get a call from agent, the vendors disagree with the survey and want to sit down with me to discuss a reduced price

i mean are you f**king kidding me, no mention of the 335k bidder whatsoever from the agent!!!

and the vendors "disagree with the survey", they survey carried out by an independent chartered surveyor!!!
refused to sit down with vendors as i'm not an engineer, neither are they.
what sould i do??
a - walk away
b - run away
c - knock another 20k off
d - honour the 295k offer
e - say sod it and write them a check for 350k, and tip the agent a couple of grand :eek:

Blazer

Walk away/run away .. how big are these issues and how much would it cost to fix?
Sounds like the auctioneer still think's it's 2006 and he can bump up the price

Oink

Sure sounds like they're taking the p!ss.
The whole thing smells. I would walk away, but not before making an insulting, non-negotiable, no-discussion, offer.

Then if they don't like it just find another (serious) seller.

D3PO

ive said it a million times on here. EA's are cheating lying idiots.

Id tell them to shove their house and sell it to their "phantom bidder oops I mean overseas bidder"

mathie

D3PO wrote: »

ive said it a million times on here. EA's are cheating lying idiots.

I'd agree 100%

EAs are the most dishonest bunch of people I've ever had the misfortune to interact with.
Liars one and all.

I once viewed a house with an EA and asked him if the lane behind the house was accessible.
"No it's been closed off for years"
Not two seconds later we see a guy walk the lane.
Nothing is said.

As I say .... liars.

Stufinnegan

I would take them up on their offer of a sit down meeting but insist that the surveyor also attends at their expense. They can argue the fact with the surveyor if they like. He/She will know what they are talking about!!!
If that meeting comes to a successful conclusion for you and they do offer a reduced price, tell them your offer no longer stands as they have messed you around one time too many..........Now comes the poker bit.......counter offer at 10k below your 295k offer in writing (here's one I prepared earlier...). Hand it over and walk out. In the written offer put a definite time limit. Let them stew on it and see what happens.

tradtshirt

Good jaysus the agent has been on again with a list of good points compiled by the sellers!!

I mean, jesus, I spend a fortune on a report from a chartered surveyor, and they dismiss it with a self compiled list of how much the velux windows cost them etc and never mention the serious defects!!!

shoegirl

The combination of an air of desperation matched by mysterious unseen bidders is a little suspect.

I'd walk.

Or else if you do like the place, ask for everything now to be in writing, including yours bids and the pretend bidders also. If they refuse then walk.

Zamboni

e - say sod it and write them a check for 350k, and tip the agent a couple of grand :eek:


Definately this option.
It will boost the economy as Cowen wants us too...

Seriously. €295k with an expiry date.
EA's and vendors can only play if you play too.

ZYX

tradtshirt wrote: »

OK so i know i'm mad to buy a gaff at the moment etc.
but i spotted a gaff 6 weeks ago for €350k, and after viewing was told there was a bid of 300.
so i went 305
told of a bid 310
so i went 315
told of a bid 320
so i went 325 - sale agreed
all this takes a month!

so then i orders me survey, which takes 2 weeks. in the meantime contracts are drawn up and sent on to my solicitor etc.

2 days ago the agent calls me to say another bid "from overseas" for 335k - but the vendors were sticking with me cause i have the cash ready.


yesterday i call agent to say i just got survey and it contains some bad news, theres a couple of big issues with the gaff - so i reduced my offer to 295k, fully expecting them to tell me to clear off and go with the 335k bidder.


this morning i get a call from agent, the vendors disagree with the survey and want to sit down with me to discuss a reduced price

i mean are you f**king kidding me, no mention of the 335k bidder whatsoever from the agent!!!

and the vendors "disagree with the survey", they survey carried out by an independent chartered surveyor!!!
refused to sit down with vendors as i'm not an engineer, neither are they.
what sould i do??
a - walk away
b - run away
c - knock another 20k off
d - honour the 295k offer
e - say sod it and write them a check for 350k, and tip the agent a couple of grand :eek:

Why do you assume it is a phantom bidder now but not before? If it is because they are now willing to negotiate on price that doesn't really mean anything.
1. You have been a couple of weeks getting survey done. Other bidder would want a survey done also delaying the sale by 2 weeks
2. Probably the other bidder would get the same results as your survey and would want price reduced also.
3. Other bidder would now know they are the only bidder and be in a position to drop price.
4. A bid is not the same as a sale or put another way, a buyer in the hand is worth 2 other bidders

If I was the vendor I would do exactly as they are if I had a second bidder.

mikemac

Put in your bid with a time limit.
And sure go meet the vendors and bring the surveyor. You may as well go, you have nothing to lose.
Let the surveyor do the talking on the technical aspects

But be prepared to walk away
Plenty of other houses out there, take your time

johndaman66

On the face of it I'd be inclined to go with option A or B with a preference towards B. Although I do also like the idea of making a silly low offer and bolting as suggested by another poster.

On a side note why are so many people on here so bloody triger happy at suggesting the OP makes an offer at all given the serious issues with the property that they don't know about and don't know what sort of outlay would be needed to rectify the problems or indeed its even that easy. It seems pretty poor advice from where I'm sitting.

rcdk1

OP, can you tell us what these "serious problems" are? Also, in what part of the country is the house?

useruser

It sounds to me that the OP, having been out-foxed a bit initially by the cute-hoor EA now finds him/herself in a good bargaining position. If you still like the place then it's quite simple really:

1. Decide (i.e. get professional opinion on) how much it will cost to rectify the problems you have uncovered.
2. Present these costs to the seller (including your costs in ascertaining these costs).
3. Subtract some more to come up with a new initial bargaining position and make an offer that you are happy with.

Otherwise, walk away, as everyone else rightly points out, it's a buyer's market and prices are headed in only one direction.

the_syco

tradtshirt wrote: »

2 days ago the agent calls me to say another bid "from overseas" for 335k - but the vendors were sticking with me cause i have the cash ready.

How about a letter to the people selling the house:

Dear sir/madam
In light of the other bidders bids upping the price, as well as the overseas bit of 335k, and the problems that the independent surveyor has pointed out, I hereby give you my final bid of 285k which will expire on the 15th August 2010.

Yours,
tradtshirt

You're getting messed around. Where I put 285k, put a price of 295k minus the quote a contractor that you found that fixes the big issues.

Victor

rcdk1 wrote: »

OP, can you tell us what these "serious problems" are? Also, in what part of the country is the house?

Are you selling a house?

OP, feel free not to answer.

rcdk1

Victor wrote: »

rcdk1 wrote: »

OP, can you tell us what these "serious problems" are? Also, in what part of the country is the house?

Are you selling a house?

OP, feel free not to answer.

At the risk of sounding stupid, that question was for the OP, right? In case anybody is interested, I am not currently selling a house:p

Anyhoo, I think useruser's advise is spot on.

papsita

tradtshirt wrote: »

OK so i know i'm mad to buy a gaff at the moment etc.
but i spotted a gaff 6 weeks ago for €350k, and after viewing was told there was a bid of 300.
so i went 305
told of a bid 310
so i went 315
told of a bid 320
so i went 325 - sale agreed
all this takes a month!

OP, why are you going up 5K every time? Bloody hell! Why not try going up 1k before you jump in with that much???????

yogy

No matter what your final bid is don't forget that your house will be worth about 10% less this time next year!

Ortiz

First of all too many people are too quick to point the finger at the EA all the time. The EA is probably just acting on the vendors behalf. He's trying to arrange a meeting between you both which the vendor asked him to do. If he's inventing phantom bidders then fair enough he's a d1ck but EA's are just trying to do their job and there are some absolute cowboys out there but most EA's are genuine people and this forum is way too critical of them in my opinion.

Back to the OP's question - I agree with an earlier point - go to the meeting with your surveyor at their expense and outline everything to them. Don't increase your bid and just see how the meeting goes. Obviously they'll try and get you to increase the bid but just don't budge.

There is the possibility that the vendor and agent are actually accepting your bid ahead of an overseas bid you know! A cash buyer is damn valuable in today's market and if the overseas bid fell through they could be properly fcuked. So don't just discount the overseas bid as a phantom bid immediately.

p.s Totally agree with Papista - if that's how the bidding went then that's crazy!!

Dymo

yogy wrote: »

No matter what your final bid is don't forget that your house will be worth about 10% less this time next year!

Obligatory Accommodation & Property post, surprised it took so long.

Op it seems like the sellers were acting the bollacks trying to steal money from you now its your turn. If you really want the house they won't let a buyer go unless they really have to.

3DataModem

It boils down to whether you want house or not, and if you think it is value for money for your needs. If you think it's good value at 295, then why walk away?

There should be two considerations when buying a house:

(1) what it is worth to you.... Only you can decide this

And then

(2) what you think you can get it for...

In you case I am guessing it's probably worth 310 or so to you... but you can probably - PROBABLY - get it for 280.

If the vendors have the balls to sit down with you then the EA probably has been telling you and them the same story (true or otherwise).

Sit down. Write down 280. Tell them offer expires at end of the day, as you have other properties surveyed that you are interested in.. Then it's up to them. If they refuse offer, you can still bid more again if you want to.

Good luck.

stepbar

It's very hard to advise you what to do if we have no idea where the house is.

Doop

stepbar wrote: »

It's very hard to advise you what to do if we have no idea where the house is.

how does that make any difference??

Slydice

in all honesty... it looks like you were walking into it as an easy "mad" target

they tried to do you and almost did

Now that you flung a spanner in, they've shown how much contempt they were treating you with. I'd offer 250k as a final offer (or maybe less, check the asking prices or other places around the house) and leave the place and go looking elsewhere. Get over your madness and move along. It's only a house. There's 300,000 empty houses in the country. You'll find another.

the_syco

Doop wrote: »

how does that make any difference??

If the area was in an area that flooded last year, and one of the serious problems was dampness, I'd be yalling "run away". If it were in an area where €295k was high, it may be too high. WHo knows?

Damie

Any update on this Tradshirt?

I'd hit them with an offer of 250, advising them if they get an offer over that they should break an arm taking it and that you will give them until the end of the week to accept your offer. Its a buyers market, use it to your advantage.

tradtshirt

No update. I've left the 295 offer with them and gave them until friday. Will walk away after that, and rent till next spring.

The House is in rural wicklow btw.

Redderneck

If this one doesn;t work out - next time around, as others have said don't deal in increments of 5k for Gawd's sake. Even if there's a counter offer which ups your previous offer by 5k, if you feel you're still keen and the gaff offers value, then go woith thier offer plus 250-500 - not even by an additional grand.

Personally, given that it is a buyers market, I think the right approach on being told another bid has come in which ups your initial offer by 5k, is to go 'really; fair enough so. I'm reducing my initial offer by 5k'.

Always be prepared to walk.

jmayo

tradtshirt wrote: »

OK so i know i'm mad to buy a gaff at the moment etc.
but i spotted a gaff 6 weeks ago for €350k, and after viewing was told there was a bid of 300.
so i went 305
told of a bid 310
so i went 315
told of a bid 320
so i went 325 - sale agreed
all this takes a month!

What were you at ?
So you upped your intitial offer from 300,000 to 325,000 ?
And that is in the current market ?
Me thinks you were had.

tradtshirt wrote: »

so then i orders me survey, which takes 2 weeks. in the meantime contracts are drawn up and sent on to my solicitor etc.

2 days ago the agent calls me to say another bid "from overseas" for 335k - but the vendors were sticking with me cause i have the cash ready.

Subtle pressure :rolleyes:

yesterday i call agent to say i just got survey and it contains some bad news, theres a couple of big issues with the gaff - so i reduced my offer to 295k, fully expecting them to tell me to clear off and go with the 335k bidder.

this morning i get a call from agent, the vendors disagree with the survey and want to sit down with me to discuss a reduced price

i mean are you f**king kidding me, no mention of the 335k bidder whatsoever from the agent!!!

and the vendors "disagree with the survey", they survey carried out by an independent chartered surveyor!!!
refused to sit down with vendors as i'm not an engineer, neither are they.
what sould i do??
a - walk away
b - run away
c - knock another 20k off
d - honour the 295k offer
e - say sod it and write them a check for 350k, and tip the agent a couple of grand :eek:

Well it looked like you were as good as on option e before the surveyors report.
Be thankful for the surveyor.

Take option b and then rethink your negotiation methods for next time.

Firstly they are getting desperate and if the surveyor found something that appears to be major then there could be a lot more unforeseen problems.
Run now and be done with it.

tradtshirt wrote: »

No update. I've left the 295 offer with them and gave them until friday. Will walk away after that, and rent till next spring.

The House is in rural wicklow btw.

Ahh rural Wicklow where they are still looking for 40,000 an acre on land that is damm near impossible to getting planning on.
Prime examples of this delusion are in the Enniskerry area.

LK_Dave

First off, your solicitor received contracts from the vendors. They can’t sell this property to another person until the unsigned contracts are returned to them (I’m guessing that your solicitor did not let you sign the contract until the engineers report came back). I have had this issue before but you should check with your solicitor that this is still the case. So do not feel that the vendor can put pressure on you.
Secondly, you have a chartered surveyors/engineers report that there are “big issues” with the property. Without knowing what these issues are, I would say run as fast as you can. If however, your heart is set on this property and the issues can be rectified for €40k (335k-295k) and you are happy that this is achievable. You are only kidding yourself knocking €40k off the price – it will fall to you to organise the fixing off and only God knows what will be discovered once the rebuilding process commences.
To cover yourself, you should ensure that the chartered surveyor is in fact qualified, registered and indemnified. Ask the EA (in email or fax) for a litter stating the sequence of the bids and stating there was another bidder. If it turns out that there was a phantom bidder, you can sue the ass off the EA – although it will be hard to prove.
Good luck and more power to you.

D3PO

LK_Dave wrote: »

Ask the EA (in email or fax) for a litter stating the sequence of the bids and stating there was another bidder. If it turns out that there was a phantom bidder, you can sue the ass off the EA – although it will be hard to prove.
.

No you cant. No idea where your getting this from, besides which you would never be able to prove it one way or the other

Dymo

LK_Dave wrote: »

First off, your solicitor received contracts from the vendors. They can’t sell this property to another person until the unsigned contracts are returned to them (I’m guessing that your solicitor did not let you sign the contract until the engineers report came back). I have had this issue before but you should check with your solicitor that this is still the case. So do not feel that the vendor can put pressure on you.

Where did you get this information?, its easy to print another contract and it often happened that sellers would say first signed contracts returned would get the house. Its only when the seller signed the contract that it's a valid sale.

LK_Dave wrote: »

Ask the EA (in email or fax) for a litter stating the sequence of the bids and stating there was another bidder. If it turns out that there was a phantom bidder, you can sue the ass off the EA – although it will be hard to prove.
Good luck and more power to you.

The information given here is hilarious, there's a reason why you always see "For Sale By Private Treaty", because the seller of the house have a right to privacy and they don't want all and sundry knowing there business. The estate agent works for the seller not the buyer, the option is always there to employ your own agent.

Damie

tradtshirt wrote: »

No update. I've left the 295 offer with them and gave them until friday. Will walk away after that, and rent till next spring.

The House is in rural wicklow btw.

I hope it all works out for you but to be honest, I would keep my powder dry and wait till spring, all the best

LK_Dave

Dymo wrote: »

Where did you get this information?, its easy to print another contract and it often happened that sellers would say first signed contracts returned would get the house. Its only when the seller signed the contract that it's a valid sale.

Why do you think contracts are exchanged between the solicitors and not the vendor/purchaser?

The vender could in the meantime go to another solicitor and have a contract sent to a different perspective client but in doing so leaves him/herself open to being sued. No solicitor in their right mind would simultaneously issue multiple contracts for the same property.

The information given here is hilarious, there's a reason why you always see "For Sale By Private Treaty", because the seller of the house have a right to privacy and they don't want all and sundry knowing there business. The estate agent works for the seller not the buyer, the option is always there to employ your own agent.

Why is this so hilarious? If it is so hilarious why do EA's require professional indemnity insurance? I did say it would be hard to prove.

Colonel Sanders

tradtshirt wrote: »

OK so i know i'm mad to buy a gaff at the moment etc.
but i spotted a gaff 6 weeks ago for €350k, and after viewing was told there was a bid of 300.

This would have been the end of the conversation if I'd been in your shoes as it was quite obvious what was gonna come next

Damie

Any update on this?

tradtshirt

Damie wrote: »

Any update on this?

They offered it to me for 300k, but I walked away in the end.

It has gone sale agreed now (for an undisclosed amount > 295k, probably 296!) - je ne regret rien.

The house had plenty of headaches coming down the line according to my rather expensive survey. And I felt I was being messed around by the EA - not that this is unusual as I am quickly learning.

As it happens 2 days after I pulled out, another house (bigger, brighter, more modern, better view) just 300 yards away came on the market for similar money.

Just goes to show - there will always be another house!!!

Dymo

Well done for walking away, at least that way you can have a clear concience and somebody else who wanted it more has the house. It seems greed from sellers still hasn't changed and your right there's always another house it's just the messing and survey you paid for that would leave a sour taste if it was me.

I'd hit them with an offer of 250, advising them if they get an offer over that they should break an arm taking it and that you will give them until the end of the week to accept your offer. Its a buyers market, use it to your advantage.

They obviously did

Jo King

LK_Dave wrote: »

Why do you think contracts are exchanged between the solicitors and not the vendor/purchaser?

The vender could in the meantime go to another solicitor and have a contract sent to a different perspective client but in doing so leaves him/herself open to being sued. No solicitor in their right mind would simultaneously issue multiple contracts for the same property.

Contracts are exchanged between vendor and purchaser. They usually have solicitors acting as agents for them. Issuing a contract has no legal significance.
Under the Statute of Frauds the purchaser needs the signature of the vendor before he can sue on a contract. A solicitor can issue as many contracts as he likes. Provided only one is signed there will be nothing to worry about. It is far from unknown for the Purchaser to sign a contract and for the vendor to refuse to sign. The purchaser generally has no recourse.

Damie

tradtshirt wrote: »

They offered it to me for 300k, but I walked away in the end.

It has gone sale agreed now (for an undisclosed amount > 295k, probably 296!) - je ne regret rien.

The house had plenty of headaches coming down the line according to my rather expensive survey. And I felt I was being messed around by the EA - not that this is unusual as I am quickly learning.

As it happens 2 days after I pulled out, another house (bigger, brighter, more modern, better view) just 300 yards away came on the market for similar money.

Just goes to show - there will always be another house!!!

That expensive survery will probably save you thousands and more importantly, several nights sleep....all the best with the new conquest

Damie

Dymo wrote: »

Well done for walking away, at least that way you can have a clear concience and somebody else who wanted it more has the house. It seems greed from sellers still hasn't changed and your right there's always another house it's just the messing and survey you paid for that would leave a sour taste if it was me.



They obviously did

I'd would put a tenner(big spender:p) on that house going back on the market in a month