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Cork County Council to quit "loss making" refuse collection service...

  • 27-07-2010 11:16pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 585 ✭✭✭


    I'm a bit confused, or maybe confused is the wrong word...

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/county-council-prepares-to-axe-refuse-collection-service-126285.html

    The County Council down in Cork can't make money from a refuse collection service, so their solution to this is to tender it out to the private sector. It begs the question, what do they expect a private operator to do with the service to make it profitable when they cannot make it profitable themselves???

    What happens the unionised Cork Co. County workers who find that their job function has been outsourced, I can hardly see them being made redundant???


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,934 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Well a private company would pay collectors much less than the council would and they would also have less inefficiency. If there was no money in collecting trash, there wouldn't be private refuse collection companies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    They are admitting that they can't do it as cheaply as private operators. They will quit instead of remedying the problem, if it was a private sector co this would involve laying off the staff and winding up th eco.

    Because it is the PS they will redeploy the over paid staff elsewhere at the same level of pay therefore in their eyes the problem is solved


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Cork Co.Co have been winding down their refuse collection operations for years, private competitors fill the gap with expensive refuse collection services.

    Net result? endemic illegal dumping around the county as people take the cheap option, but at least the "inefficiencies" will be eliminated eh :rolleyes:?.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Cork Co.Co have been winding down their refuse collection operations for years, private competitors fill the gap with expensive refuse collection services.

    Net result? endemic illegal dumping around the county as people take the cheap option, but at least the "inefficiencies" will be eliminated eh :rolleyes:?.
    Wrong, illegal dumping is happening all around the country due to the recession and people not paying refuse charges at all. Charges where I live are provided by private operators cheaper than the Council did but dumping is increasing because choose to pay nothing instead.

    Ask yourself was the dumping as visible 4-5 years ago


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    why would the council even be trying to make a profit collecting waste?

    the service is paid for by rates and taxes and bin charges, I wouldn't see any L.A. making money on this kind of thing...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    why would the council even be trying to make a profit collecting waste?

    the service is paid for by rates and taxes and bin charges, I wouldn't see any L.A. making money on this kind of thing...

    Someone posted figures a few weeks ago on the profits made.. Galway make a considerable profit and use it to cover the costs of other services (iirc the cost was about 1m with them making 2m profit which is used elsewhere).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    why would the council even be trying to make a profit collecting waste?

    the service is paid for by rates and taxes and bin charges, I wouldn't see any L.A. making money on this kind of thing...
    For the same reason that a private operator can make a profit. It should be run efficiently if at all possible


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Cork Co.Co have been winding down their refuse collection operations for years, private competitors fill the gap with expensive refuse collection services.

    Net result? endemic illegal dumping around the county as people take the cheap option, but at least the "inefficiencies" will be eliminated eh :rolleyes:?.

    Can you provide examples of these expensive refuse collections?.. On a previous thread plenty of people provided figures and the vast majority of private companies substantially undercut the cost of the CoCo (even charging VAT which wasn't being applied to the CoCo cost).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Wrong, illegal dumping is happening all around the country due to the recession and people not paying refuse charges at all. Charges where I live are provided by private operators cheaper than the Council did but dumping is increasing because choose to pay nothing instead.

    Ask yourself was the dumping as visible 4-5 years ago

    Nope, illegal dumping has been endemic around my parents area (a well frequented scenic spot) for the best part of two decades, pretty much since the time Cork Co.Co abandoned offering refuse collection services in the area and left it to the mercy of private operators who cost substantially more.
    Welease wrote: »
    Can you provide examples of these expensive refuse collections?.. On a previous thread plenty of people provided figures and the vast majority of private companies substantially undercut the cost of the CoCo (even charging VAT which wasn't being applied to the CoCo cost).

    Perhaps you can link this thread to me?

    Linking this in with the twin themes of local Government reform and a property tax. A property tax would allow for local government run refuse collection services to be re-implemented where they have been phased out and run down, thus removing the profiteering element from a service which tends to be municipally run elsewhere in Western Europe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Nope, illegal dumping has been endemic around my parents area (a well frequented scenic spot) for the best part of two decades, pretty much since the time Cork Co.Co abandoned offering refuse collection services in the area and left it to the mercy of private operators who cost substantially more.



    Perhaps you can link this thread to me?

    Linking this in with the twin themes of local Government reform and a property tax. A property tax would allow for local government run refuse collection services to be re-implemented where they have been phased out and run down, thus removing the profiteering element from a service which tends to be municipally run elsewhere in Western Europe.


    I'll see if i can dig it out later..

    But a quick look on Greenstars site, shows the following prices..

    http://www.greenstarcork.ie/

    CorkBins.jpg

    127 Euro cheaper than CoCo (and they collect Glass etc)...

    And it looks as though the CoCo have yet to start charging the VAT as required by the EU.. which one can only assume will increase the cost further (or result in a sell off)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0728/1224275614255.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Nope, illegal dumping has been endemic around my parents area (a well frequented scenic spot) for the best part of two decades, pretty much since the time Cork Co.Co abandoned offering refuse collection services in the area and left it to the mercy of private operators who cost substantially more.

    The opposite is true in my area

    Why should we provide waste info for your area, you're the one living there. It's up to you to backup your statement with facts not us, greenstar is the only one I can find as well and they are cheaper than the Council

    There is also a cheaper option 2 on Greenstars page for €269 and you can claim 20% tax relief for that. This is nearly half what the council charges


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭beeno67


    Welease wrote: »
    I'll see if i can dig it out later..

    But a quick look on Greenstars site, shows the following prices..



    127 Euro cheaper than CoCo (and they collect Glass etc)...

    And it looks as though the CoCo have yet to start charging the VAT as required by the EU.. which one can only assume will increase the cost further (or result in a sell off)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0728/1224275614255.html

    You will only save that if you get your bin collected 26 times a year. I don't live in Cork but with my use it would be cheaper with the County council


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    beeno67 wrote: »
    You will only save that if you get your bin collected 26 times a year. I don't live in Cork but with my use it would be cheaper with the council

    /shrug most people have collections every 2 weeks.. It's a fair enough representation, but as you say there will be cases where it is cheaper using other methods.. However if you live in the city area and put your bins out about once a month then Greenstar is cheaper :)

    (i.e. you need a lot less than 26 collections per year to save money)

    The point being... We are still waiting to see any evidence that in Cork private waste collection is considerably more expensive which is what was stated here (multiple times).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    beeno67 wrote: »
    You will only save that if you get your bin collected 26 times a year. I don't live in Cork but with my use it would be cheaper with the County council
    My bins get collected every two weeks, but a lot of the time I can leave it for 4 weeks so a pay by collection would be cheaper for me. There is this option available where I live but the landlord pays my waste and I could understand some tenants abusing that type of system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Welease wrote: »
    I'll see if i can dig it out later..

    Greenstar sound good but as you'll see in the link they only service some of the suburbs and satellite towns of Co. Cork where the Co.Co still seem to be operating, where my people live there is only one private operator and no Co.Co alternative. I will ask how much they cost but AFAIR there is a quarterly charge of around 160 - 180 Euro or so, but i can't stand over this until i ask them.
    Why should we provide waste info for your area, you're the one living there. It's up to you to backup your statement with facts not us

    Did you even read my post? i specifically mentioned my parents area :rolleyes:. I am going on their anecdotal evidence that it is and has always has been significantly more expensive to use a private operator since the Co.Co withdrew from refuse collection operations the area in the 1990s.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Well as you refuse to provide the name of the operator we can't verify the facts, who is it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    why would the council even be trying to make a profit collecting waste?

    The council shouldnt be trying to make a profit on collecting waste but they should be trying to avoid making a loss. In areas or scenarios where Co. Co. waste collection is cheaper than the service provided by a private company it is probably because the Co. Co. is providing the service at a loss. The Co. Co. will still have to pay the full cost of refuse collection (ie. the over paid bin men) even if the fees collected do not cover these costs and so the bin mens wages will have to be found elsewhere. So even if you pay less with the Co. Co. refuse collection the opportunity cost is road maintenance, improvements to water services, playgrounds, etc. Therefore regardless of the fee you are charged private bin collection will always be cheaper. At least private companies charges reflect the actual cost of refuse collection and not inefficient council practices and the cost of paying bin mens whose wages have been jacked up by greedy unions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    County Councils also provide waivers to pensioners and the unemployed. Private contractors won't do this or maintain the unprofitable rural routes.

    Let the fly tipping commence.

    This doesn't take away from the fact that bin men are overpaid, lazy bistardos.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Well as you refuse to provide the name of the operator we can't verify the facts, who is it?

    I don't know, but i see no reason as to why my parents would lie about the cost and merits of private refuse collection versus Co.Co collection. Unlike some they don't wear ideological blinkers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The council shouldnt be trying to make a profit on collecting waste but they should be trying to avoid making a loss. In areas or scenarios where Co. Co. waste collection is cheaper than the service provided by a private company it is probably because the Co. Co. is providing the service at a loss. The Co. Co. will still have to pay the full cost of refuse collection (ie. the over paid bin men) even if the fees collected do not cover these costs and so the bin mens wages will have to be found elsewhere. So even if you pay less with the Co. Co. refuse collection the opportunity cost is road maintenance, improvements to water services, playgrounds, etc. Therefore regardless of the fee you are charged private bin collection will always be cheaper. At least private companies charges reflect the actual cost of refuse collection and not inefficient council practices and the cost of paying bin mens whose wages have been jacked up by greedy unions.

    that was what I was getting at. Anyway even if Cork CC stop providing bins services they still have to pay all the bin men, they're hardly going to simply fire council staff now are they...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    Lumbo wrote: »
    County Councils also provide waivers to pensioners and the unemployed. Private contractors won't do this or maintain the unprofitable rural routes.

    Let the fly tipping commence.

    This doesn't take away from the fact that bin men are overpaid, lazy bistardos.

    Wastepal rural collection rates with discounts for the elderly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    I don't know, but i see no reason as to why my parents would lie about the cost and merits of private refuse collection versus Co.Co collection. Unlike some they don't wear ideological blinkers.
    But they may have been getting overcharged or sold a service they don't really need. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    beeno67 wrote: »
    You will only save that if you get your bin collected 26 times a year. I don't live in Cork but with my use it would be cheaper with the County council

    Not true, you save so long as you have your bins collected more than 5 times a year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    Wastepal rural collection rates with discounts for the elderly.

    Waiver = €0

    Discount for elderly = €135


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭beeno67


    nesf wrote: »
    Not true, you save so long as you have your bins collected more than 5 times a year.

    15 times not 5 and my bin would not be collected 15 times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    beeno67 wrote: »
    15 times not 5 and my bin would not be collected 15 times.

    Sorry, thought you were talking about City Council rates.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭The_Thing


    So even if you pay less with the Co. Co. refuse collection the opportunity cost is road maintenance, improvements to water services, playgrounds, etc.

    Not true.

    Each department in a local authority will have their own budget and cannot "dip" into another department's allocated funds therefore a loss making refuse collection cannot affect road maintenance, water, sewage, parks and open spaces, etc.

    The "cleansing section" of a local authority may also have to collect bins and other crap from any traveller halting sites in their area too and the rodents residents of said sites do not pay for this service.

    In my area the binmen did not want to collect from the sites as the waste was not being paid for by the travellers, but they were forced to do so by management.
    bin men are lazy bistardos.

    Again, not true.

    Binmen, be they public or private sector are anything but lazy. Spend a week on the bin lorry with them and you'll see what I mean. They are also constantly exposed to disease and the most god-awful filth imaginable.

    In my experience most of the time it is younger men who man the lorries as the job is too rigourous for the older men to handle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    The_Thing wrote: »

    Again, not true.

    Binmen, be they public or private sector are anything but lazy. Spend a week on the bin lorry with them and you'll see what I mean. They are also constantly exposed to disease and the most god-awful filth imaginable.

    In my experience most of the time it is younger men who man the lorries as the job is too rigourous for the older men to handle.

    I have spent time working with them. Introducing the pay by weight system. In fact I worked as a binman as a summer job in Germany about 10 years ago. The introduction of the wheelie bin means its no longer the dirty job that it used to be. ffs all they have to do is pull the bin off the curb and press a button :rolleyes:

    Compare that to the job that lads in the Cleansing, Drainage or Water section. They do the real dirty work and don't earn the money or have the soft hours that a binman has.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The_Thing wrote: »
    Not true.

    Each department in a local authority will have their own budget and cannot "dip" into another department's allocated funds therefore a loss making refuse collection cannot affect road maintenance, water, sewage, parks and open spaces, etc.

    And what do you think happens when the waste disposal departments expenditure exceeds its income? They dont just tell the binmen thats our budget spent so you will have to work for free for the rest of the year. The money is redirected from somewhere else, somewhere not seen as necessary. The binmen cannot be sacked and so their wages will have to be paid regardless of whether the funds are available in that department, a road improvement project can be put on hold however, if the funds are not available or are suddenly relocated. We all pay taxes and rates to fund the Co. Co.'s and so if a greater proportion of our money is allocated to refuse collection there is obviously an opportunity cost to us somewhere in what we are paying for the council to do for us.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭CoalBucket


    Nope, illegal dumping has been endemic around my parents area (a well frequented scenic spot) for the best part of two decades, pretty much since the time Cork Co.Co abandoned offering refuse collection services in the area and left it to the mercy of private operators who cost substantially more.
    Perhaps you can link this thread to me?

    The company I use in County Cork charges up to 50% less than the Co. Council charge for domestic collection and even greater reductions for commercial collections.

    In fact the day the County Council announced they were pulling out their prices were reduced. I spoke to the sales rep about this and he said that they expect to pick up so many customers that it would increase efficiencies, i.e. more customers in the same area covered.

    When I asked would it go up again he said it prob wouldn't because the other private operators would only take their customers. In fact he said that because the Council fees were so high that they never were competition anyway !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭The_Thing


    Lumbo wrote: »
    I have spent time working with them. Introducing the pay by weight system. In fact I worked as a binman as a summer job in Germany about 10 years ago. The introduction of the wheelie bin means its no longer the dirty job that it used to be. ffs all they have to do is pull the bin off the curb and press a button :rolleyes:

    Compare that to the job that lads in the Cleansing, Drainage or Water section. They do the real dirty work and don't earn the money or have the soft hours that a binman has.

    The council bin men are part of the cleansing section. :rolleyes:

    Fact: A €120,000 judgement against Waterford City Council has recently been awarded to a bin man in compensation for serious health problems directly related to his work as a bin man - so much for it being "no longer the dirty job that it used to be"
    And what do you think happens when the waste disposal departments expenditure exceeds its income?

    The wages are part of each department's yearly budget, therefore a budgetary shortfall in one dept would not cascade through to another.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    The_Thing wrote: »
    The council bin men are part of the cleansing section. :rolleyes:

    Not in the Local Authority I work for.
    Fact: A €120,000 judgement against Waterford City Council has recently been awarded to a bin man in compensation for serious health problems directly related to his work as a bin man - so much for it being "no longer the dirty job that it used to be"

    Have you a link to that judgement?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The_Thing wrote: »
    The wages are part of each department's yearly budget, therefore a budgetary shortfall in one dept would not cascade through to another.

    Perhaps you dont understand the term 'opportunity cost'. If one departments expenditure exceeds their budget then this amount is covered by the council. The council receives its money from taxpayers and rates payers. The money used to cover this budget deficit could potentially go towards any service which the council provides. Therefore their IS an opportunity cost to the taxpayers and rates payers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Wrong, illegal dumping is happening all around the country due to the recession and people not paying refuse charges at all. Charges where I live are provided by private operators cheaper than the Council did but dumping is increasing because choose to pay nothing instead.

    Ask yourself was the dumping as visible 4-5 years ago


    This is a real problem. I know alot of people who dont have a bin collection. I dont blame them since it is expensive but if you live in a house there should be some way of making sure there is some way of disposing of your rubbish.
    Personally the service is getting worse.
    The city council used to pick the bins weekly, now its every other week and the volume in the bins the same. Long term this lead to more rats and other vermon having a handy food source. Bad news all round.
    Once the councils leave it to private operators, they will jack up the price.
    I dont know whats it like throughout the country but the local dump wont take any household waste. So if you miss your bin week thats 4 weeks of smelling garbage.
    I rotten system, if we are paying for it , it should be a weekly collection.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Once the councils leave it to private operators, they will jack up the price.

    You say this like it is automatic :confused:

    Many private services are cheaper than state in many areas. Why do you think private operators will the price?

    Why would they all suddenly stop competing with each other and why is a council run monopoly where they get to set the price preferable to private operators for you?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭CoalBucket


    Here is a flyer I received from a private operator. In comparison to the Councils average price of €456 the minimum saving is €186 per year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    I think the bottom line in all of this is that the council's own employees have priced themselves out of business.

    Would that be correct? The unions will never admit it, naturally.Any more than the blocklayers would..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    thebman wrote: »
    You say this like it is automatic :confused:

    Many private services are cheaper than state in many areas. Why do you think private operators will the price?

    Why would they all suddenly stop competing with each other and why is a council run monopoly where they get to set the price preferable to private operators for you?


    The private operators have lower prices so they can build up market share at the present time.
    When the council's leave the market there will be no player with the public interest.( not that council's are overly concerned but at least we have a vote them in every 5 years)
    Hopefully when incinators come on stream it will be more cost effective than Landfill. And the price differents will be passed on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Dob74 wrote: »
    The private operators have lower prices so they can build up market share at the present time.
    When the council's leave the market there will be no player with the public interest.( not that council's are overly concerned but at least we have a vote them in every 5 years)
    Hopefully when incinators come on stream it will be more cost effective than Landfill. And the price differents will be passed on.

    So why would private operators stop fighting each other for market share?

    It doesn't make sense to me. If they are fighting for marketshare now then what percentage do you think will satisfy each of these companies and why would no new company step in if they started overcharging?

    I mean its not like this is a prohibitively expensive area to get into like insurance or banking or something. It doesn't really take that much to start a business that collects rubbish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    thebman wrote: »
    So why would private operators stop fighting each other for market share?

    It doesn't make sense to me. If they are fighting for marketshare now then what percentage do you think will satisfy each of these companies and why would no new company step in if they started overcharging?

    I mean its not like this is a prohibitively expensive area to get into like insurance or banking or something. It doesn't really take that much to start a business that collects rubbish.


    Look at he phone market, the first few years esat and eircom where going at each other and the consumer benefited. As soon as vodafone and O2 took over they consolidated. And now we have the highest phone rates in europe.
    I would say it is difficult and expensive to do start any business hear. The trucks, insurance and more importantly disposal. if you dont have critical mass you wont get good rates in getting rid of it.
    Competition works to a certain extent but only if market conditions are right.
    In the states private contractors bid on local areas not a house hear and there. which would probably work out better seeing that volume would be a big issue


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,226 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Dob74 wrote: »
    if you dont have critical mass you wont get good rates in getting rid of it.
    Competition works to a certain extent but only if market conditions are right.
    In the states private contractors bid on local areas not a house hear and there. which would probably work out better seeing that volume would be a big issue

    This is exactly how people can guarantee lower prices from private companies. If everyone in an estate/ on a road/ in a town land got together and offered the contract for disposing of the waste of 20 or 30 houses close together to a number of companies they would get a lower cost per house. At least you can negotiate with private companies and play them off against each other, you cant do this with the council. It would also mean less profitable routes (mainly rural areas) become more attractive to private companies because they can do all the houses there instead of just four or five before heading over the other side of the county for another few.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Dob74 wrote: »
    The private operators have lower prices so they can build up market share at the present time.
    When the council's leave the market there will be no player with the public interest.( not that council's are overly concerned but at least we have a vote them in every 5 years)
    Hopefully when incinators come on stream it will be more cost effective than Landfill. And the price differents will be passed on.
    Complete speculation

    There has been no council service where I live for years and the prices are still dropping. I'm not in a big city either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Look at he phone market, the first few years esat and eircom where going at each other and the consumer benefited. As soon as vodafone and O2 took over they consolidated. And now we have the highest phone rates in europe.
    I would say it is difficult and expensive to do start any business hear. The trucks, insurance and more importantly disposal. if you dont have critical mass you wont get good rates in getting rid of it.
    Competition works to a certain extent but only if market conditions are right.
    In the states private contractors bid on local areas not a house hear and there. which would probably work out better seeing that volume would be a big issue
    We have never had cheap calls in Ireland. Full stop


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