Pacing Bike Leg for Tri

kennyb3

Okay so first off i ll probably come across as an idiot for posting this as I havent actaully done a triathlon myself, but however as a result I am a bit impartial (an outsider looking in so to speak).

Anyway to the point: i ve started this topic in the hope that it might help some fellow boardies as basically from reading logs and race reports over teh last while it seems (to me anyway) as if alot of people are overcooking the bike and then struggling on the run.

So perhaps more experienced posters could come on here and contribute re same especially re pacing and training speeds v race speeds.

As I see it I see people posting average speeds for the bike leg well above those that they are averaging in training. Again, i ve no experience but this just seems daft as the bike is only one third of a triathlon. I know you hammer in bike training but by then hammering in a race when you arent use to it are you shooting yourself in the foot?

In some of the cases nutrition seems to be pointed at however, is it not the case that if you are racing the bike leg at a threshold above which you train that you are sapping all your energy so to speak and that it is this rather than bad nutrition which is leading to tired runs (i.e if you went a couple km/ph slower on the bike, nutrition was the same, you d have more energy for the run).

Anyway just thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion and a few lessons might be learned.

BeepBeep67

I'll be interested in the replies on this also as planning to do some Duos next year - plus I'm meeting a tri coach next week to through some specific training and transition tips - so I'll post an update after that.
I would imagine it's like anything - you have to replicate in training what you hope to do in racing. I'm sure there are some end of bike section techniques that help though, cruise the last .5k or spin hard - I'm not sure.

Woddle

I have my first on Sunday and I'm going to have a mini tri myself tomorrow morning to prepare and one of the things I'll be doing is taking it handier on the bike as the few times I've tried running of the bike, I'm at about 8'30 pace instead of 7'30.
The bike isn't really a 1/3 of a tri though as timewise it takes by far the longest so maybe a nice comfortable aerobic pace.
As I said I've not done one so I know nothing. I did read somewhere that before you dismount you should get into a higher gear and start spinning more in an effort to prepare the legs.

pgibbo

Personally I used to suffer a lot off the bike last year when I started doing triathlons. However, I've found that as my bike fitness has improved it's easier to run off the bike. Touch wood, I don't cramp off the bike any more. Miles in the saddle is key.

As for pacing yourself, that's one I'm still struggling with. For me I think I hold back a bit on the bike and as a result my bike splits aren't as good as or as close to what I do in club TT's.

One other important thing is that speed isn't a good indicator. I used to use this myself until the following was pointed out to me by a fellow boardsie - Weather conditions can throw speed out the window. A combination of HR + Cadence or Power on it's own is probably the best way to pace yourself and gauge effort.

kennyb3

pgibbo wrote: »

I used to use this myself until the following was pointed out to me by a fellow boardsie - Weather conditions can throw speed out the window. A combination of HR + Cadence or Power on it's own is probably the best way to pace yourself and gauge effort.

+1, i dont always wear my HRM but i defo go by effort as the terrain and wind direction is all important.

christeb

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I'll be interested in the replies on this also as planning to do some Duos next year - plus I'm meeting a tri coach next week to through some specific training and transition tips - so I'll post an update after that.
I would imagine it's like anything - you have to replicate in training what you hope to do in racing. I'm sure there are some end of bike section techniques that help though, cruise the last .5k or spin hard - I'm not sure.

Would you not give me a shot at the title next week? The last Duathlon in the Phx Park is Weds 4th Aug....

mloc123

Your run off the bike will always be a few seconds off your staright pace, when its more than that you have over cooked the bike. Without power feedback on the bike it is quite hard to say what is the correct pace. You will however figure out what PE, HR and cadence works best for you after a few races.

kennyb3

I' ve edited the post title now, as there has been a few running off the bike threads. Im more specifically interested in pacing it

kennyb3

mloc123 wrote: »

Your run off the bike will always be a few seconds off your staright pace, when its more than that you have over cooked the bike.

This is kind of what im interested in, would anyone have any opinions for varying distances what % your run should be over and above your straight pace?

BeepBeep67

christeb wrote: »

Would you not give me a shot at the title next week? The last Duathlon in the Phx Park is Weds 4th Aug....

The last of the graded meets wins this time around - maybe next week is my only chance once you get used to your new rocket ship!

Gringo78

kennyb3 wrote: »

This is kind of what im interested in, would anyone have any opinions for varying distances what % your run should be over and above your straight pace?

Thanks Kenny for the question, its something I've been looking for a bit of info on (an not finding a whole lot). Best I can find is that for a sprint tri, you should lose at most 30-40sec off your flat out 5k race pace. That makes sense to me as I can't imagine setting my 5k PB after a 750m swim and 20k bike. I can imagine getting within 40sec of it though (I'm doing a lot of "imagining" since I've never done a tri but will do my first on sept 4th)

Typically I would be averaging >92% HRR on a 5km run and from training on the bike in the gym by HR (and running at least 1-2km after every bike) I find that up to 76-80% HRR on the bike I don't find my run overly affected but beyond that I imagine my run pace would suffer. (I should point out I've minimum cycling training and am apporaching this purely from a runners perspective). I'd be very interested if anyone could share HR data like that for the run/bike HR split.

Of course you cannot hit your 20km TT record off the bike and expect to be able to run a competitive 5k so there has to be an optimum balance. What is it though?

dare2be

pgibbo wrote: »

Personally I used to suffer a lot off the bike last year when I started doing triathlons. However, I've found that as my bike fitness has improved it's easier to run off the bike. Touch wood, I don't cramp off the bike any more. Miles in the saddle is key.

Or is it a proper bike fit that's key?

tunney

kennyb3 wrote: »

Okay so first off i ll probably come across as an idiot for posting this as I havent actaully done a triathlon myself, but however as a result I am a bit impartial (an outsider looking in so to speak).

Anyway to the point: i ve started this topic in the hope that it might help some fellow boardies as basically from reading logs and race reports over teh last while it seems (to me anyway) as if alot of people are overcooking the bike and then struggling on the run.

So perhaps more experienced posters could come on here and contribute re same especially re pacing and training speeds v race speeds.

As I see it I see people posting average speeds for the bike leg well above those that they are averaging in training. Again, i ve no experience but this just seems daft as the bike is only one third of a triathlon. I know you hammer in bike training but by then hammering in a race when you arent use to it are you shooting yourself in the foot?

In some of the cases nutrition seems to be pointed at however, is it not the case that if you are racing the bike leg at a threshold above which you train that you are sapping all your energy so to speak and that it is this rather than bad nutrition which is leading to tired runs (i.e if you went a couple km/ph slower on the bike, nutrition was the same, you d have more energy for the run).

Anyway just thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion and a few lessons might be learned.

"There is not such thing as a good bike followed by a bad run, just a badly paced bike".

In 95% of the time this is the case. Irish triathlon and triathletes have a reputation international for being all about the bike. I remember finishing 4th in a race (albeit to 3 drafters) but having the fastest bike split. I was being congratulated by so many people for fastest bike split I may well have one.

It was one of the first things my coach hammered out of me and the other irish athletes he coaches. Its not about the bike.

There are numerous pacing strategies that people can follow that will force them to pace a bike well. There are also numerous ways that people can approach training races to teach them the feelings of a well paced bike.

In less than HIM distance races nutrition is rarely a factor in pacing (albeit Brownlee at the weekend managed to bonk with 20m to go and went from 2nd to 10th in ITU race on London).

Quite often hours and hours invested in the bike have only minor changes to bike splits but run splits come way down. Also often people have crap runs and then say they need to run more - they don't they need to ride more.

Alot of people look at bike training as a series of long rides. Its alot like running really. Speed work (relevant to the distance raced), strength work, skills and drills and long sessions are all required. Much like all running training isn't doing at 5km pace, neither should biking, but you hit it or faster in specific sessions.

A well paced bike, and one for which you have the training done, should leave you within 30-60 seconds of your straight 5km time. And 1-2 minutes of your straight 10km time.

If you have a power meter it gets so much easier not just to pace, but to learn good pacing. For example I rode a race at the weekend by perceived effort as I didn't want to bring my power meter on a stag. If I had wattage I reckon it would have been bang on where I wanted it to be. (Yes I ran sh!te but that was 7kg weight put on since Austria, being out the night before, and not having my running legs back yet)

"Ride for show, run for dough" - bikings fun but its all decided on the run.

My 2c

tunney

Gringo78 wrote: »

Thanks Kenny for the question, its something I've been looking for a bit of info on (an not finding a whole lot). Best I can find is that for a sprint tri, you should lose at most 30-40sec off your flat out 5k race pace. That makes sense to me as I can't imagine setting my 5k PB after a 750m swim and 20k bike. I can imagine getting within 40sec of it though (I'm doing a lot of "imagining" since I've never done a tri but will do my first on sept 4th)

Typically I would be averaging >92% HRR on a 5km run and from training on the bike in the gym by HR (and running at least 1-2km after every bike) I find that up to 76-80% HRR on the bike I don't find my run overly affected but beyond that I imagine my run pace would suffer. (I should point out I've minimum cycling training and am apporaching this purely from a runners perspective). I'd be very interested if anyone could share HR data like that for the run/bike HR split.

My race in TriKilkenny at the weekend.
Perceived effort on the run was about right, pace was 2:30 overall slower than usual but that was down to weight, three weeks no training and running legs still in Austria

Bike
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42044012
Run
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42044013

Gringo78

tunney wrote: »

There are numerous pacing strategies that people can follow that will force them to pace a bike well. There are also numerous ways that people can approach training races to teach them the feelings of a well paced bike.

Whats a good starting point? Say for a sprint tri, if your FTP is 220W - what percentage of that would be your recommended first iteration in a first race?

Sorry, just seen your latest post above with the garmin data...thanks, thats what i was looking for.

tunney

Gringo78 wrote: »

Whats a good starting point? Say for a sprint tri, if your FTP is 220W - what percentage of that would be your recommended first iteration in a first race?

Sorry, just seen your latest post above with the garmin data...thanks, thats what i was looking for.

if you know your FTP then you can get exact figures for power to be held very easily. I think the discussion is is pacing *without* a power meter.

shotgunmcos

Without using power or using your FTP, its probably best to use perceived effort for given heart rate.

Last year I was a novice on the bike and learn a lot the hard way. Generally I'd hop on the bike with my HR through the roof after the swim, give it welly and wonder why I always, like pgibbo, cramped up on the run, specifically the quads.

It wasn't until I faced Kenmare and worried about blowing up on the 2 climbs there that I invested in a hrm. For Kenmare I just set a certain threshold that I would not allow my heart rate to go over. It did at the top of the Healy Pass but only for a minute. I had a good run that day.

This year for racing I have taken a diffferent approach on the bike. I took off the bike computer and only use heart rate in races. I get too distracted by speed so its a discipline thing for me. Intead I use perceived effort. I have learned more about my levels and when I am pushing too hard by using the turbo a lot. I'm really starting to like the turbo actually as you learn a lot from it. Your set up, the feel of the pedal stroke, cadence and of course effort...

A good as the turbo is you can't beat heading out and doing a 20-25 min TT as hard as you can go. Gauge how you feel after it and what effect it had on your hear rate.

Tunney is right that to improve your run splits you need to bike more and then not overcook the bike. At first a while back this confused me but then it struck me

To get within a minute of your 10k pb off the bike... bike more
To get a 10k pb run more

So basically that means more biking, more running and then more biking

More, more , more its never enough

El Director

Enjoyed reading this thread, learning quite a bit and it has stoked something in the back of my mind, there because I am just postponing learning about it and using it until the off season. I am talking about training with power.

First off I am definitely no expert but sure I'll just add my 2 cents anyway and maybe I will learn more from the feed back.

I am actually very much of the Shotgun school of thought here. I don't use a speedo, garmin or HR monitor during races. Just a casio stopwatch, I just prefer less distractions and like to pay more attention to what my body is telling me during a race as opposed to these devices. So I too use perceived effort. How I gauge it on the bike is as follows, pretty simple really. I keep a nice cadence of approx 85 and if I try to keep it there. If it drops I change gear appropriately. If it gets too high I change gear appropriately. I know I am over cooking it if I feel the burn in the quads. I will feel some burn but it shouldn't last for long periods at all just small bursts. So I just keep repeating in my head "spin spin spin". I usually find my running legs within 500 m and off I go usually with no problem.

So that's it, I try to keep it simple. I too notice improvements in my running since I started using the turbo during the winter, I should probably keep it up through the season too.

Shotgun you mentioned a more, more, more philosophy, well you'd find Matthew Syed's book "Bounce-How Champions Are Made" an excellent for anybody with any ambition of being successful.

Gringo78

tunney wrote: »

if you know your FTP then you can get exact figures for power to be held very easily. I think the discussion is is pacing *without* a power meter.

I don't have a power meter so I'd be using the poor man's substitute...a HR monitor. Going on the basis of info from other threads, there seems to be a 10bpm offset between bike HR's and running HR's. So a good starting point might be the following:

Bike: approx 35-40min duration, therefore do at 10bpm below my 10k run HR.
Run: will be at my normal 5k straight HR (or 1-2 few beats below)

That would give about 15-20bpm difference between my bike and run HR's in a sprint tri.

tunney

Gringo78 wrote: »

I don't have a power meter so I'd be using the poor man's substitute...a HR monitor. Going on the basis of info from other threads, there seems to be a 10bpm offset between bike HR's and running HR's. So a good starting point might be the following:

Bike: approx 35-40min duration, therefore do at 10bpm below my 10k run HR.
Run: will be at my normal 5k straight HR (or 1-2 few beats below)

That would give about 15-20bpm difference between my bike and run HR's in a sprint tri.

Or you could do a 30 minute time trial and take your average HR for the last 20 minutes and thats your LT2 and work zones out from there.

MrCreosote

Tunney is right about the bike time being given too much importance. One of the big Aussie tri websites is firstoffthebike.com- I mean who cares who is first off the bike?! What about first over the line??

I'm firmly middle of the pack, a pretty poor cyclist and see so many people totally overcooking it on the bike.

For me- no HRMs or powermeters (would love to get one of these someday!), but perceived effort is for 20k- hurts a lot, for 40k- hurts a little, and my plan for 90k (first one later this year) is that it shouldn't hurt at all.