Advice needed about dog biting

belongtojazz

Hi Alll,

I have posted on here previously about my Springer Spaniel who we rescued aged 7 last year. He has been coming on brilliantly since we got him and in general I am very happy with his progress and he is a very happy dog nowadays. However we had a bit of a problem last Sunday!

We moved back to Ireland from the UK on Friday night and I know my dogs are a bit unsettled with the move but in general seemed fine. On Sunday Boe was running around my dads car (he has issues with cars) so I grabbed his collar to pull him off the car but uunfortunately at the same time I stood on his paw, well he attacked me I have 2 puncture wounds in my hand which has swollen massively. There was no warning whatsoever.It only lasted probably 2 seconds and as soon as I let go of his collar he just lay down on the ground.

I understand this dog has major issues due to his background and I in no way blame him. I was grabbing his collar (which he hates ) and I hurt him so he reacted. But his reaction was well over the top.
Does anyone have any advice on how i prevent him reacting like that again?

It was a pretty bad bite and if it happened to my daughter I would have no choice but to rehome him which I really really don't want to do as I adore him but her safety and the safety of the other 3 dogs must take priority

Please help us if you can

peasant

belongtojazz wrote: »

Does anyone have any advice on how i prevent him reacting like that again?

Keep him out of stressfull situations and don't hurt him ...definitely avoid the combination of both

I know it sounds obvious ...that's because it is. Any dog (with previous issues or not) could have reacted like this. All wound up, held against its will, so wound up even more and then trampled upon ...seriously ...what would you have done in such a situation in his shoes (or rather paws)?

As for your dog potentially biting your daughter ...that's where supervision comes in. Make sure that both of them don't end up in a similar situation together and it'll be fine.


You might want to work on the collar thing though. Get him used to you grabbing his collar in all sorts of situations. Slowly and patiently though! Start off when he's calm and relaxed, gently touch the collar, praise/treat. Once that works without hiccups then hold the collar and after that slowly progress to leading him by the collar. Take your time with this (several weeks) repeat frequently and make it as relaxed and pleasurable (treats!) for him as possible.
That should help to diffuse stressful situations in the future.

cjf

I have a little female doggie who also has a problem with having a collar on or being pulled by the collar. I have a soft harness for her which I pop on for walks or if letting them out in the yard to play. It just means that if some unexpected accident or incident crops up I can catch her with the harness and it doesnt have the same pulling on the neck sensation. It is unfortunate that this has happened however believe in the silver lining and thank god it was you and not your child or a neighbour who could have taken it further.

If the dogs out playing and rough housing just be sure to keep an eye out that they not pulling at the harness!

I taught my dog to tolerate the collar but she just feels safer and happier with the harness on so moved her tags to the harness and got rid of the collar!

caseyann

It sounds like you just caught your dog off guard,and during excitement.
Dont let the dog get hyper like that first sign stop in tracks.
My dog had a go at me couple of weeks ago when i grabbed his collar and gave me a fright,but i shushed him.You have to show control all time.

belongtojazz

Thank you all for your replies. I have decided to change the collar he's wearing to a softer one as I think the current one is a bit hard on his neck, he doesn't need it for the lead as we use a gentle leader on him for walking.I don't think the harness would work as there is him and 3 Jack russes in the house and there is no chance they will leave it alone, my little jack russell used to try and take his coat off during the winter

I have also put a note through all my neighbours door advising them if he does jump in their car (not that he will as he is never out unsupervised, but just in case) to come get me and I will get him out.

My daughter already knows not to push him at all, she is never left on her own with him and never has been since we got him. As fabulous as he is unfortunatley he just can't be trusted.

I think I just wanted reassurance that he isn't a big bad dog and that he is 100% blameless which you have all provided. The stimulus he recieved from me was enough to trigger that reaction and it is my fault not his, what's sad is I can't tell my family why I have a bad hand as the instant reaction would be "get rid he's dangerous" when it's totally not his fault, as I write this we're all sitting on the couch and i'm using him too warm my feet, he's such a dote really

Galway K9

Re-establishing the hierarchy would really help. look it up.

belongtojazz

Galway K9 wrote: »

Re-establishing the hierarchy would really help. look it up.

I don't believe that is the issue. He is well aware of his place in the household/pack and in general he is probably the easiest of all the dogs in the house. This was an over reaction to a negative stimulus and what I need to do and am working hard on is trying to reduce the risk of him reacting like that again.

He is not a dominant dog and he has no interest in the power play that goes on with the JRTs (there are 3 of them here)

Galway K9

ah right ok. ive always found that over 90 percent of all dog behavioural issues can be addresssed with establishing a pack structure.

Please note i never mentioned dominance or agression, a pack leader is a provider and protector for others

LucyBliss

I'm sorry this happened to you, belongtojazz, it can be very disheartening when you think things are going well and I hope your hand is better soon.

I think in this case, it might be useful to de-sensitise him to the car. Maybe take him out on a lead so you can correct him and then give him treats as a reward. How old is your daughter? Perhaps you could include her on this training so he'll be aware that her presence means a good thing and not another stresssor.
Also perhaps you might be able to get him to calm down with treats and commands so that if he does lose the run of himself again, he'll respond to you and calm down so that when you do put your hand on him, he won't take another bite.
With my dogs, I put my hand on their neck or back, palm down, just so they register my presence and it's not such a big deal to them then if I have to take hold of the collar or back of their neck and gently guide them away from whatever has gotten them stroppy.

Best of luck. You did a great thing in adopting an older dog and I really hope that nothing happens to make you have to rehome him.

belongtojazz

I am thinking of getting some professional advice on desentising (sp) him to the car. If he manages to get in he could spend all day sitting in there and I have to literally drag him out (using a lead not his collar ) I have tried leaving him there with the door open and every now and then he'll get out but if it looks like i'm going to bring him in he jumps straight back in.

If he has been in the car recently he will run around and aound trying to find a way in, he has my car scratched to bits I have tried everything I can to sort this but think it is beyond me.

On a positive note he is better with me holding is collar, my little one got away yesterday while they were out for a wee and I had to hold his collar while I went to get her back, and he was fine with it

peasant

When you first said he had "issues" with the car I (and probably everybody else) assumed that he was afraid of it

belongtojazz

peasant wrote: »

When you first said he had "issues" with the car I (and probably everybody else) assumed that he was afraid of it

Haha nope he is obsessed with it, absolutely adores it, above and beyond what he feels for the rest of the family I reckon

Graces7

Many older rescues have layer upon layer of problems. We are finding this with the collie we took in. We deal with one issue and as she gains confidence, another emerges. As her fear diminishes, we see more of her pain also.

It looks to have been almost a reflex response? Not the dog;s fault.. scary though.. How is the hand?

I am aware here than collie growls at some triggers so avoid those.i And have found other ways to exert discipline.

But all praise to you for the work with the dog.

belongtojazz

Graces7 wrote: »

Many older rescues have layer upon layer of problems. We are finding this with the collie we took in. We deal with one issue and as she gains confidence, another emerges. As her fear diminishes, we see more of her pain also.

It looks to have been almost a reflex response? Not the dog;s fault.. scary though.. How is the hand?

I am aware here than collie growls at some triggers so avoid those.i And have found other ways to exert discipline.

But all praise to you for the work with the dog.

Yeah I'm finding that with my Springer, we get one issue sorted and then we discover for instance that he hates going out the back when the ground is wet, or this issue with the car... it seems like a never ending journey with him, but it is worth it, he is 1000% times happier than we he arrived with us.

My hand is fine now thanks, still have a bit of a lump on the back but the pain and bruising is all gone now

Graces7

belongtojazz wrote: »

Yeah I'm finding that with my Springer, we get one issue sorted and then we discover for instance that he hates going out the back when the ground is wet, or this issue with the car... it seems like a never ending journey with him, but it is worth it, he is 1000% times happier than we he arrived with us.

My hand is fine now thanks, still have a bit of a lump on the back but the pain and bruising is all gone now

All sounds very familiar indeed:)

It took two years to get our collie to go through a door; she had been locked in a dark shed much of each day and all night for five years. So we had the "door dance": half in then panic so half out again. ..... Went on and on and not funny in winter.

Now she guards "her" porch" and often refuses to go out.

But she dances and sings and runs and is happy, so that is fine. Now the barking issue has started to yield thankfully..

She is eight going on nine now and greying around the muzzle... But so affectionate..

belongtojazz

yeah my guy has door issues, he was locked up between a garage and a garden for 6 years before we got him so if he's not at home (groom vet etc) he can't cope if a door is closed on his escape route. He wasn't fed properly he had to scavange so he's now obsessed with stealing food, so I put him in his cage while i'm preparing and eating dinner so he's in the room with us ut he's relaxed. There is just so many issues and as he's an older dog there is a very big chance we won't resolve many of them, but so long as he is happy and we are aware of his limitations it's fine.

Boe is going grey around his muzzle but he still has the energy of a pup down the field

Graces7

belongtojazz wrote: »

yeah my guy has door issues, he was locked up between a garage and a garden for 6 years before we got him so if he's not at home (groom vet etc) he can't cope if a door is closed on his escape route. He wasn't fed properly he had to scavange so he's now obsessed with stealing food, so I put him in his cage while i'm preparing and eating dinner so he's in the room with us ut he's relaxed. There is just so many issues and as he's an older dog there is a very big chance we won't resolve many of them, but so long as he is happy and we are aware of his limitations it's fine.

Boe is going grey around his muzzle but he still has the energy of a pup down the field

Yep! Good to meet with you! Collie would go bananas if I tried to cage her. She never learned any boundaries so it is back to square one now. Finally she no longer inhales her food; same reason as with Boe. She can get picky now which is a wonderful thing.

belongtojazz

Wow i'd love it if Boe became picky but he literally eats EVERYTHING including Rat Poison 2 weeks ago which landed him in the vet and me with a huge vet bill (he's still taking vitamin K)

He loves his cage but took a good while and lots of treats to get him to relax in there. He won't stay in there though if I'm not in the same room as him:p

Sounds like you're doing a great job with your Collie

Graces7

belongtojazz wrote: »

Wow i'd love it if Boe became picky but he literally eats EVERYTHING including Rat Poison 2 weeks ago which landed him in the vet and me with a huge vet bill (he's still taking vitamin K)

He loves his cage but took a good while and lots of treats to get him to relax in there. He won't stay in there though if I'm not in the same room as him:p

Sounds like you're doing a great job with your Collie

We have had her three years now, incredibly and there have been times when we thought we would have to rehome her. The severity of the thunder phobia and the lack of a vet who would prescribe for her, given that I cannot get her in the car myself and that she is terrified of anyone but me..She is a gentle creature, and that in spite of all her years of abuse. I get full support from trainer-family in Canada; they warned not to let her out in a storm, but as I told them, she attaches herself like glue to me when she is terrified so no danger;) The time she broke the door and vanished for 11 days was because I was out and she was seeking me.

I understand her more now and finding that the whiskey calmed her and that she hated it was a major breakthrough when dealing with the new discipline issues that arise.

And I rarely now have to actually give her any; the sight of the cup is enough and now even the word NO suffices.

We are moving next week and I have had, as I am alone just now, to arrange for help to lift her into the car; thankfully we have valium for that day and know it works.

Long drive and I am taking small roads.....

She is by the way an excellent guard dog and looks terrifying to anyone thinking of entering. But I have whistle trained them both and she does me proud.

EGAR

I often have dogs in who react badly to being grabbed by the collar. I use a little trick to work on that. Take a bundle of jingly keys and put it on his collar. Let him walk around with it and it will get on his nerves. After a few minutes call him over, create a key word lets say: "Keys off", take him by the collar and take the keys off. Then praise him like hell, pet him etc. Do this several times a day. He will eventually associate being taking by the collar is a good thing. It's not a quick fix, it will take some time. And every now and then you replace the petting with a treat. Don't give him a treat each time you do it, just every now and then .

Galwayk9, pack order has nothing to do with fear aggression. Fear aggression is one of the most difficult form of aggression to get under control. It takes time, understanding and common sense. Ingrained behaviour such as attack is the best defense needs to be re-conditioned, pressure to conform is the absolute wrong thing to do.

Galway K9

I completely agree with your opinion EGAR and that fear agression is a coping mechanism for stress as its one of the FFF reactions however, if a dog has a REAL pack leader then the dogs need to protect itself wouldnt exist as trust in the alpha would exist and dog is relieved of this job that its not able to uphold. With sayign this, what you said is still true.

I hope i come across clear but what im tryign to convey is that, an aplha is a protector therefore dogs need to protect itself wouldnt exist.

An example to support thsi would be dogs that i have "helped" and once i take control and guide the dog, yet no signs of fear agression exist.

EGAR

With a dog whose confidence/trust in humans has been completely shattered one cannot apply normal rules as "normal" for this dog is to fear bite. Any attempts to force what we perceive as normal canine behaviour onto a fear aggressive dog will make the problem worse.

It is learnt behaviour and very hard to break. In cases of fear aggressive dogs each case must be taken by its individual merits as no blanket rules apply.

belongtojazz

EGAR wrote: »

I often have dogs in who react badly to being grabbed by the collar. I use a little trick to work on that. Take a bundle of jingly keys and put it on his collar. Let him walk around with it and it will get on his nerves. After a few minutes call him over, create a key word lets say: "Keys off", take him by the collar and take the keys off. Then praise him like hell, pet him etc. Do this several times a day. He will eventually associate being taking by the collar is a good thing. It's not a quick fix, it will take some time. And every now and then you replace the petting with a treat. Don't give him a treat each time you do it, just every now and then .

Galwayk9, pack order has nothing to do with fear aggression. Fear aggression is one of the most difficult form of aggression to get under control. It takes time, understanding and common sense. Ingrained behaviour such as attack is the best defense needs to be re-conditioned, pressure to conform is the absolute wrong thing to do.

That sounds like a great plan Thank you I will definately give it a try, he is such a great dog and so good in general I just need to figure out these last few issues.

I have had different 2 trainers so far tell me he is too old and damaged to be fully rehabilitated, but I won't give up on him yet. Unfortunately I am a novice when it comes to rescue dogs, my dogs growing up were all from pup and my other dog was rescued at 12 weeks and doesn't seem to have been mistreated before I got her. This guy is a real challenge but when we make a break through it is such a brilliant feeling

Galway K9

EGAR wrote: »

With a dog whose confidence/trust in humans has been completely shattered one cannot apply normal rules as "normal" for this dog is to fear bite. Any attempts to force what we perceive as normal canine behaviour onto a fear aggressive dog will make the problem worse.

It is learnt behaviour and very hard to break. In cases of fear aggressive dogs each case must be taken by its individual merits as no blanket rules apply.

With the latter argument i completely agree however i never mentioned "normal" rules. Dogs know within a few moments wether a human is a leader or not. Im basically sayin in the simplest way that if a leader exists then the "majority" of irish dogs would not fear bite in presence of a protector unless dog is more dominant or a natural born leader, the dog would need to rehabilitate and build its confidence which takes time which i agree with but as i was sayign majority of all dog behaviour problems can be addressed with reestablishing the hierarchy.

Correction: A natural pack leader wouldnt be fear agressive as all fear is exaggerated (forgive spelling) to genetic and nerves.

Galway K9

Makign a genuine enquiry here, how many dogs in your rescue would you accept as rehabilitated to a safe level to suit a family environment?