US and Colombia conspiring for war with Venezuela?

Yitzhak Rabin

In recent days tensions in the region have really been raised. It seems Colombia is accusing Venezuela of harbouring FARC and ELN terrorists along its border.

A war between the two would certainly suit the US, as it could provide a boost to its arms industry. It would also finally be able to secure the vast quantities of oil belonging to Venezuela.

Hugo Chávez certainly seems to think war is on the horizon and said yesterday

"I feel obliged for dignity's sake to suspend relations with the government of Colombia. It is the least we can do, and we will remain alert, as [President Álvaro] Uribe is a sick man, filled with hate,"

He also said;

"I warn the international community. We will brook no aggression, nor any violations of our national sovereignty," said Chávez, and added that any war with Colombia would "have to be fought with tears, but it would have to be fought."

In a last ditch effort to try and prevent conflict, Chávez has threatned to cut off America's oil supply

"If there was any armed aggression against Venezuela from Colombian territory or from anywhere else, promoted by the Yankee empire, we would suspend oil shipments to the United States even if we have to eat stones here." He also cancelled a trip to Cuba on the grounds that "the possibility of an armed aggression against Venezuelan territory from Colombia" was higher than it has been "in 100 years."

So is a war on the horizon?

Are Colombia harbouring terrorists, or is it just an excuse to allow the colombians invade (backed by US)?

Seeing as Venezuela has the third largest oil reserves in the world, I'm betting the oil prices will go up over the coming weeks. Might be worth buying a few oil commodity stocks?


For an overview of colombian-venezuelan relations see here

Yitzhak Rabin

Venezuela has moved more troops to the border.

Also forgot to mention that the US has said it will occupy 3 bases in Colombia to 'fight drug trafficking'

Good long article on it here

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-07/27/c_13417064.htm

Venezuela has sent about 1,000 soldiers to the border region to reinforce posts along the border of more than 2,000 km. The soldiers arrived in the border region over the weekend.

The military of Venezuela have vowed to repel any attacks by Colombia.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez cut off diplomatic ties with Colombia on Thursday after Bogota presented to the Organization of American States (OAS) the accusations that some Colombian guerrilla chiefs were in Venezuela.

Colombia said earlier that Swedish-made weapons bought by Venezuela during the 1980s had ended up in the hands of Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) rebels, who have been fighting the Bogota government for more than four decades.

The move further raised tensions between the two neighboring countries after Chavez previously called stronger military ties between Colombia and the United States a threat to his country.

Colombia announced earlier this month that the United States would use three bases in Colombia to fight drug trafficking.

Valero also accused the United States and Colombia of "increasing the war in Latin America."

PirateShampoo

They should be wiped off the face of the earth for inventing that stupid horn

Mahatma coat

AHHH, You're thinkin of the Vuvuzela:p

Ya Get A different Sort of Horn from the Venuzelans;):D



AAANYWAYYYY

Do people think this will escalate into full conbflict or just a lot of posturing???????

Yitzhak Rabin

Outgoing Colombian President Alvaro Uribe Tuesday asked Colombians to forgive him for estranged relations with the neighboring countries during his tenure.

"Please forgive those impasses I have caused, because I have to put the interests of the homeland above all," Uribe, who will leave office on Aug. 7, said.

During his two terms in office, Colombia had tense relations with Venezuela and Ecuador, both of whom have severed ties with Bogota.

"I always cause upsets abroad and sometimes at home. I have not been able to manage it as well as I would like to," Uribe told local media.

Ecuador severed diplomatic ties with Bogota in March 2008 following Colombia's bombing of rebel camps in Ecuadorian territory. The two nations are seeking to restore relations.

Venezuela severed ties with Colombia last week, bringing the countries' troubled relations to a new low after Bogota accused the Venezuelan government of harboring Colombian guerilla chiefs.

It is very unusual for a politician to apologise. He is basically admitting he was wrong, and is not putting the interest of the people of latin America first.

Is this his way of apologising for being an American pawn and mouthpiece in the region? As he is retiring, does he now realise he has been used.

There is a conference hosted by Ecuador on Aug 7 to try and defuse the situation. Hopefully it prevents war and there is minimal US interferance.

Yitzhak Rabin

Just to try and get this topic up and going for the CT side of things, I'll draw some tenuous links as to why Uribe is a zionist 'illuminatus'

He went to University in both Havard and Oxford.

In May 2007, the American Jewish Committee gave Uribe its "Light Unto The Nations" award. AJC President E. Robert Goodkind, who presented the award at AJC's Annual Dinner, held at the National Building Museum in Washington stated:

"President Uribe is a staunch ally of the United States, a good friend of Israel and the Jewish people, and is a firm believer in human dignity and human development in Colombia and the Americas"

On 13 January 2009 US President George W. Bush awarded President Uribe, along with former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Tony Blair and former Prime Minister of Australia John Howard, the highest civilian award; the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Dana Perino, the White House Press Secretary explained that he received this award

"for (his) work to improve the lives of (his) citizens and for (his) efforts to promote democracy, human rights and peace abroad." She said (speaking of the three leaders who received the reward on this day): "All three leaders have been staunch allies of the United States, particularly in combating terrorism."

In January 2005, Human Rights Watch stated: "Paramilitary groups maintain close ties with a number of Colombian military units. The Uribe administration has yet to take effective action to break these ties by investigating and prosecuting high-ranking members of the armed forces credibly alleged to have collaborated with paramilitary groups. Credible reports indicate that some of the territories from which the military has ejected the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Fuerzas Armadas Revolutionarias de Colombia, FARC) are now under the control of paramilitary groups, which continue to carry out indiscriminate attacks on the civilian population."

So is he genuinely trying to fight terrorism, or is it just a front to pass his 'anti terror laws' which "granted the military judicial police rights and allowed limited arrests and communication intercepts without warrants."


more to follow....

Yitzhak Rabin

He has publically announced he'd welcome a foreign invasion of Colombia.

In January 2003, President Uribe ended a radio interview by asking "why isn't there any thought of [making] an equivalent deployment [as in the invasion of Iraq] to put an end to this problem [the Colombian conflict], which has such potentially grave consequences?"

http://ania.urcm.net/spip.php?article4258 - Spanish article

I'd say it has more to do with securing the oil in Venezuela than anything else. Also, if you subscribe to the idea that the CIA controls the drugs smuggling of the world, then it would definitely suit them to be invited into colombia.

George W. Bush certainly sings his praises

"My nation will continue to help Colombia prevail in this vital struggle. Since the year 2000, when we began Plan Colombia, the United States has provided more than $3 billion in vital aid. We'll continue providing aid. We've helped Colombia to strengthen its democracy, to combat drug production, to create a more transparent and effective judicial system, to increase the size and professionalism of its military and police forces, to protect human rights, and to reduce corruption. Mr. President, you and your government have not let us down. Plan Colombia enjoys wide bipartisan support in my country, and next year I will ask our Congress to renew its support so that this courageous nation can win its war against narco-terrorists."

Yitzhak Rabin

In 10 August 2004, the National Security Archive (NSA) published a declassified 1991 intelligence report from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), which contained a list of several individuals identified as "Colombian narco-traffickers". The document states that it is "not finally evaluated" intelligence information. The source for the report and the reporting officer's comments were not declassified.
The report listed then-Senator Álvaro Uribe as a "close personal friend of Pablo Escobar" and described him as "dedicated to collaboration with the Medellín [drug] cartel at high government levels". It also stated that Uribe had "attacked all forms of the extradition treaty" and that his father had been murdered because of a "connection with the narcotic traffickers"

You can read the report here

But to be fair the report is deeply flawed and contains a number of errors.

In 2007 Virginia Vallejo, media personality and former lover of Pablo Escobar, published her memoir "Amando a Pablo, odiando a Escobar" (Loving Pablo, Hating Escobar), where she accused several Colombian presidents of involvement with drug traffickers. She stated that Escobar "idolized" Uribe and that he and his partners in the Medellín Cartel had obtained "dozens of licenses for landing strips and hundreds for the aircraft and helicopters on which the infrastructure of the drug trafficking industry had been built" while Uribe served as Director of the Colombian Civil Aviation Agency (1980–1982)

Also, Pablo Escobar was the one who provided the helicopter and landing strip for Uribe to travel to his fathers funeral in 1983.

Alot of his administration is accused of links to the paramilitary drug smugglers as well. Just look up the colombian parapolitics scandal. By April 22, 2008, 62 members of Congress were official suspects. 33 lawmakers, including Mario Uribe Escobar, President Uribe's cousin and former President of Congress, were in jail awaiting trial.

He was also involved in his own "watergate" type scandal, called the DAS scandal, where he wiretapped his opponents. In May 2009 Colombian prosecutors officially began an investigation on a series of illegal wiretapping and spying activities carried out against opposition politicians, judges, journalists and others by the Department of Administrative Security (DAS). The probe has involved several of President's Uribe top aides and former high-ranking personnel within the Department.

This is the same department that earlier conspired with paramiltary groups to assassinate Hugo Chávez.

Brown Bomber

Wish I had something to add, but it is all facinating reading. Hope you continue posting.

Yitzhak Rabin

Decent article which will be appearing in tomorrows Guardian about it

In March I wrote about the Obama administration's contribution to the election campaign under way in Venezuela, where voters will choose a new national assembly in September. I predicted that certain things would happen before September, among them some new "discoveries" that Venezuela supports terrorism. Venezuela has had 13 elections or referenda since Hugo Chávez was first elected in 1998, and in the run-up to most of them, Washington has usually done something to influence the political and media climate.

The intentions were already clear on March 11, when General Douglas Fraser, the head of the US Southern Command was testifying to the US Senate. In response to a question from Senator John McCain about Venezuela's alleged support for terrorism, Fraser said:

"We have continued to watch very closely … We have not seen any connections specifically that I can verify that there has been a direct government-to-terrorist connection."
The next day he recanted his testimony after meeting with the US state department's top official for Latin America, Arturo Valenzuela.

This made it clear that the "terrorist" message was going to be a very important part of Washington's campaign. Even the Bush administration had never forced its military officers to retract their statements when they contradicted the state department's political agenda in Latin America, which they sometimes did.

Another telling quote from Bolivia's normally diplomatic President Eva Morales, shows how obvious it is that it is Washington pulling the strings in this row.

Bolivia's president, Evo Morales, had even harsher rhetoric for Uribe, calling him "a loyal representative of the US government, with its military bases in Colombia designed to provoke a war between Venezuela, Ecuador and Nicaragua."

Read the rest here

Gone West

Uribe is a great man, a great president, and a testament to the Colombian people.
Sure, his tenure has not been perfect...
But as a politician in Colombia, he is clean as you can get.
Before Uribe, Colombia was the worlds most dangerous country, and Medellin was joint kidnap/murder capital of the world. Now it is more like #10 on the list

Before him, roads were just not safe to drive without convoy. You would be kidnapped robbed, murdered or all three on any long journey. Now it is safe, more or less in most of the country.

He is one of only about 5 politicos here who are not tainted in some way.
Uribe was never involved with the coke exporters, "not even when it was the popular thing to do", as he says himself.

Pablo Escobar never "provided" him with a chopper. In Colombia, back then, choppers were not common. If memory serves, there was some link to Escobar and that chopper, but that it was sold on to civillians years before Uribe touched it.

Uribes father was murdered during a failed kidnapping attempt by paras. To say that it was because of a "connection with the narcotic traffickers" is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

DAS (the colombian FBI) are a pack of loose cannons. They run wild with anything they can get... There is no proof that the wiretapping scandal was directly related to Uribe.

Just like when the army kills a bunch of innocent villagers, and later dresses them up as Guerillas for the photo OP. Its called falsos positivos. The blame lies not with Uribe, but with the man who made the order. In the case of the falsos positivos, that would be the minister for defence, the head of the military forces, Juan Manuel Santos. He will be the next president of Colombia, and believe me... He will be MUCH worse than Uribe in these respects. If you want to get a juicy CT out of this, have a look at the future. Santos is a much nastier, much less public, dirtier guy than Uribe. He will for sure make the Venezuela situation worse, not better.
It was Santos who made the call to "invade" Ecuador in 08. This was when the Colombian military made an excursion into Ecuador to raid a FARC camp, to secure some high level coke guys and some important intel.
Intel, like (if you believe the DAS and military) emails between FARC #2 and Correa, and between FARC #2 in command and a top Venezuelan general.
You want a CT, have a closer look at those stories. The Uribe-escobar-Ochoa coke connection has been debunked a thousand times.

Anyways what is the point of calling Uribe dirty, then defending Chavez? Chavez, Correa, Morales are dirty, those guys are so filthy that I need to shower after seeing them speak on the TV.
I'm not saying that Colombia is safe or perfect... I have seen people die on the street, I've seen people get shot.
I've seen teenage hookers working on the street and people actually living inside sewers.
I've been threatened at gunpoint, fought with my fists against homeless crack heads armed with knives.
I've bribed people from high ranking military down to the guy who cuts off the electricity for not paying the bill.

But I would still rather live here than live in Venezuela. At least here the press is free, the people are friendly and life is good.

Yitzhak Rabin

Thanks for all the info el judio. Didn't expect to get someone who lives in Colombia!

But I suppose the CT I'm looking at is more that Uribe, is acting as a pawn for US foreign policy. I think in this latest instance its particularly obvious. There has been no evidence whatsoever of Venezuela supporting the rebels.

Uribe criticizes Venezuela for not controlling the guerrillas on the border, when no one for the last 20 years has been able to police the 2,000km border including the Colombians themselves. I think it appears that in return for the 6 Bn in funding he gets from the US, he has to to stir up tensions in the region.

Thats what the CT is. Its that the US is using Colombia as a platform to invade Venezuela to secure their oil needs.

Jeboa Safari

Most countries act in their own best interests

pablo_escobar

el judio

can you give me examples of press censorship in venezuela?

specifically, provide examples where the "press" were not linked to cia / us government.

can you do that please? i'd be impressed considering that even a corrupt organization such as the RWB argues columbia have more restrictions on the press than venezuela do...go figure that out too seeing as RWB are a vocal critic of chavez.

thanks, el judio.

Gone West

pablo_escobar wrote: »

el judio

can you give me examples of press censorship in venezuela?

specifically, provide examples where the "press" were not linked to cia / us government.

can you do that please? i'd be impressed considering that even a corrupt organization such as the RWB argues columbia have more restrictions on the press than venezuela do...go figure that out too seeing as RWB are a vocal critic of chavez.

thanks, el judio.

Interesting Username, strange to pick the name of a mass murderer as your handle.
BTW it is spelt Colombia. ("thanks")

Its impossible for me to show you proof that any media outlet in Venezuela is not linked to the US Government/CIA/black helicopters/cigarette smoking man... What sort of secret proof of independence do you think that I have?

Can you show me proof that RTE isn't secretly controlled by Gay Byrne's dead cats ghost?

RWB ranks Colombia worse than Venezuela not because of the Colombian governments actions. Reporters Without Borders calculates those numbers based on several other factors. A powerful variable is the # of journalists murdered every year. Cartels, Mafias, the FARC, various paramilitaries and lone capos frequently have journalists murdered in Colombia.

If a journalist is investigating something, and they find out, they will either have them killed or force them to leave the country. Hundreds of examples available online, as recently as 2 weeks ago.
This is not a government action, but it DOES contribute to the "press freedom index" of RWB.
Venezuela is high on that list because the government jails people who are vocal critics of the regime(and more), not because of non-governmental actions.

Reading a list (what,where,when) is all well and good.
But actually UNDERSTANDING the "why" is probably more important.

pablo_escobar

El Judio wrote:

Venezuela is high on that list because the government jails people who are vocal critics of the regime(and more), not because of non-governmental actions.

I'm simply looking for tangible evidence Chavez censors the media in Venezuela and it's problematic getting answers.

Unfortunately for the world, truth manifests through a TV screen and reality is conspiracy.

Many people claiming to express an independent view of politics, base their misinformed opinions on the collective non-sensical thoughts of the corrupt American media empire and US government officials.

These so-called "officials" are lobbyists on behalf of various industries who work dilligently to undermine any "regime" or "dictactor" who doesn't welcome his country and electorate being unfairly exploited for profit.

The US are quite happy to work and praise real proven dictators in various sub-saharan/african and asian nations, not to mention sponsering terrorist activities throughout the world...but of course we're led to believe Chavez is the real dictator, aren't we?

Venezuela are the problem, apparently or so Obama would love us to believe.

Let's be clear, Chavez isn't popular with the US elite for 1 reason and it's obvious to any intelligent person who commits themselves to 5 minutes of online research.

Ever since Chavez nationalized the oil industry in Venezuela, there has been a concerted effort to demonize his character and remove him from power, starting with the coup of 2002.

The US will likely succeed in their ambitions ousting Chavez and the Chavez-hating retards will rejoice with their rhetorical slogans about "freedom" and "democracy" prevailing.

uprising2

Where have I been......missed this thread, havent been online in a couple of days, but must say I'm well impressed with you shakey!.

Think your sliding this way little by little:D, we're getting to you, must read all your posts, only skipped through it, but certainly something to watch.

I have always viewed Columbia as a US puppet and supplier of best quality cocaine to the CIA, Chavez I admire, he's a good man, physically fights for his beliefs, he's no war monger, but won't be pushed around too easy, he's a strong willed individual and will never bow down to US demands, something the US hate and falsely accuse him of various this and thats, he harbours terrorists now

Here's a news story from a few hours ago (CNN I KNOW!!)

Chavez says Venezuela sending troops to Colombian border
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/07/31/venezuela.colombia.troops/#fbid=sGhM9PaThif

let's wait and see, but the war drums are certainly beating.

andrewire

Oh, Hugo Chavez. Have you ever been to Venezuela and seen the revolution by yourself? I have and frankly, Chavez is the biggest c*nt on Earth.

Gone West

andrewire wrote: »

Oh, Hugo Chavez. Have you ever been to Venezuela and seen the revolution by yourself? I have and frankly, Chavez is the biggest c*nt on Earth.

Agreed. I have spent a considerable amount of time there. He is hated by most people... Oliver Stones movie about Chavez grossed 22,000$ (or something) in venezuela. The people don't want to hear about how great he is. Because they have "real life" knowledge, rather than "internet knowledge" as some of those above have demonstrated that that is all that they posses.

Yitzhak Rabin

el judìo wrote: »

Agreed. I have spent a considerable amount of time there. He is hated by most people... Oliver Stones movie about Chavez grossed 22,000$ (or something) in venezuela. The people don't want to hear about how great he is. Because they have "real life" knowledge, rather than "internet knowledge" as some of those above have demonstrated that that is all that they posses.

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

I'll openly admit I'm no expert when it comes to south american politics, but my reading of this current situation seems very much like Colombia/US are the aggressors. The premise for the attack is ludicrous. Neither country are able to control the border, so the US and Colombia chastising Venezuela for not being able to control it is ridiculous.

It seems like a transparent attempt by the US to get a "regime change" puppet in place who will roll back on Chavez's decision to nationalise the oil industry.

Gone West

Good thread and good debate.

yekahs wrote: »

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

I'll openly admit I'm no expert when it comes to south american politics, but my reading of this current situation seems very much like Colombia/US are the aggressors. The premise for the attack is ludicrous. Neither country are able to control the border, so the US and Colombia chastising Venezuela for not being able to control it is ridiculous.

Examples of what, sorry I don't follow you fully. Those saying that Chavez is a great guy, who stands up for his principles and that Colombia is a US terror state.... its a ridiculous thing to say. Only a true crazy, or one who reads what other crazies read online would say something like that.
What attack are you talking about? Colombia will never attack Venezuela.
Colombia is becoming a modern, vibrant country with massive internal investment. They want stability and growth. Invading a country/starting a war will retard that growth, and they will simply not instigate anything with Venezuela.

It seems like a transparent attempt by the US to get a "regime change" puppet in place who will roll back on Chavez's decision to nationalise the oil industry.

Colombia has no intention whatsoever of invading Venezuela... Why would they. The country has the strongest currency in the world. It is growing up from the dark days. Venezuela is still stuck there.
(Chevez spent 6 billion USD this year alone spent on Russian military gear, while the people go without basic services... less than the USA gave Colombia in 10 years)

What aggression is there? The states HAVE stepped up their military presence here, but no actual actions have been taken against Venezuela.
Venezuela is the only country beating war drums, and the only country sending tens of thousands of troops to a border.

I do agree that the USA will try to change the regime again, but next time they will be a little more subtle. Some of the stuff that the USA is into is sneaky, dirty, horrible, murderous nasty sh1t. But they don't secretly control Colombia and they aren't covertly trying to start a war.

IMO this is all just a Chavez smokescreen for his failed country, nothing more.
I do agree, "plan Colombia" is all about having a USA presence in South America for its own nefarious purposes, and for sure Uribe has been manipulated for PR reasons by DC. But there is not going to be a war... The military here is not even on medium alert status.

Its all good to be a left winger and all, but everything in moderation and please don't support every socialist government in the world just because they fit on your political compass. Lots of the lefties are just as nuts and just as bad as the right wingnuts. The lefties have their own conspiracies too, and there is little point trying to hide the fact that Chavez has a handful of dirty secrets and conspiracies he is taking care of himself. Its not all about the USA being the bad guys, the world is big enough now that other countries are into it too.

pablo_escobar

I am not a "left winger", el judio.

andrewire calling Chavez a "c*nt" doesn't really convince me there is censorship of the media in Venezuela.

Would he call GW Bush a "c*nt" for being indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq / Afghanistan?

How many countries have Venezuela invaded under the so-called "regime" of Chavez?

Now look at the history of the US with their constant interference in South America and other continents around the world.

How can anyone compare Chavez with some of the despotic leaders we have in power around the world today?

It just amazes me how so many people could say Chavez is a terrible leader when all he's trying to do is stop the US from exploiting the people of Venezuela and their raw materials.

You still haven't given any examples of journalists not linked to US interests who have been censored.

It's a well documented fact that lobbyists inside the US powerhouse are determined to remove Chavez because he cut them out of the oil industry.

That's the ONLY reason they don't like him.
It's the ONLY reason they want to get rid of him.

You honestly believe the US elite care about Venezuelan people? waken up!! they don't give a **** about anyone, not even their own people!!

It's been the same throughout history, the rich elite serve themselves and no one else.

Why in honour of God would the US be so interested in Chavez and Venezuela..is it not obvious?

Oil is the key here, nothing else.

Just look at Saudi Arabia...ffs, it's a royal family who haven't had elections for 40+ years and has the US media said a word of complaint?

i'm sittin here in disbelief in how naive people are.
there's truly no fckin hope...

pablo_escobar

El Judio wrote:

I do agree, "plan Colombia" is all about having a USA presence in South America for its own nefarious purposes, and for sure Uribe has been manipulated for PR reasons by DC. But there is not going to be a war... The military here is not even on medium alert status.

Thank you!

This presence is also about threatening Brazil.
Don't be surprised in the future if you hear the US lobbyists on Capitol hill complaining about "dictator" or "regime" in Brazil.

No doubt those lobbyists will use all their so-called "independent" institutions to criticize Brazil for it's human rights..etc

it's unlikely the US would invade Brazil, but they would certainly want some level of interference there.

the real smokescreen is the "war on drugs" in colombia when the UN have reported an increase in cocaine exports to the US.

Don't listen to everything the media in colombia or the US tell you.

Yitzhak Rabin

el judìo wrote: »

Good thread and good debate.

Yes, its good to have someone with decent 'on the ground' knowledge contributing, thanks!

Examples of what, sorry I don't follow you fully.

Examples of why Chavez is a bad leader, or some kind of despot, or a cúnt as the other poster said. My knowledge of him doesn't go beyond reading his wikipedia article, and tbh that paints a pretty good picture of him

What attack are you talking about? Colombia will never attack Venezuela.
Colombia is becoming a modern, vibrant country with massive internal investment. They want stability and growth. Invading a country/starting a war will retard that growth, and they will simply not instigate anything with Venezuela.

I hope you're right, but I'm not so sure. Maybe not a full scale war, but I think that they would adopt policies aimed at destabilizing their neighbours at the behest of the US insatiable need for secure energy sources.

(Chevez spent 6 billion USD this year alone spent on Russian military gear, while the people go without basic services... less than the USA gave Colombia in 10 years)

Well that is something which I completely disagree with. But I can understand it.

What aggression is there? The states HAVE stepped up their military presence here, but no actual actions have been taken against Venezuela.
Venezuela is the only country beating war drums, and the only country sending tens of thousands of troops to a border.

Venezuela sent 1000 extra troops to the border, as they were being accused of not policing the border correctly. Uribe as good as said that Colombia would have to take action due to the Venezuelans not dealing with the terrorists.

This is what Chavez said yesterday

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez called on all governments and organizations interested in supporting the cause of peace to help solve the Colombian conflict.

The Venezuelan president made his comments in a telephone interview with the TV channel Venezolana de Television.

Peace is needed not just for the Colombian people, but also for Venezuela's society and political system, which is being threatened by outgoing Colombian President Alvaro Uribe's attempts to internationalize the conflict.

Doesn't sound like drum beating to me. It sounds like someone who is genuinely worried that his country could be invaded, militarily, or more covertly as you mentioned.

Its all good to be a left winger and all, but everything in moderation and please don't support every socialist government in the world just because they fit on your political compass. Lots of the lefties are just as nuts and just as bad as the right wingnuts.

I'm far from a left winger. Probably more of a centrist or slightly right wing. I admire some of the goals of communists, but I think it is a deeply flawed system and unworkable. Though I don't think its an either or situation. There are lots of things deeply flawed with globalisation and capitalism as well.

The lefties have their own conspiracies too, and there is little point trying to hide the fact that Chavez has a handful of dirty secrets and conspiracies he is taking care of himself. Its not all about the USA being the bad guys, the world is big enough now that other countries are into it too.

Thats kind of what I was asking earlier. As I said, I know very little about the politics of the region. So can you give examples of this?

Brown Bomber

el judìo wrote: »

Agreed. I have spent a considerable amount of time there. He is hated by most people...

Strange that...in the 2006 democratic elections his party got 63% of the vote.

el judìo wrote: »

Oliver Stones movie about Chavez grossed 22,000$ (or something) in venezuela.

This is the kind of thing that gets to me.

Rupert Murdoch's WSJ picks up on an article by Variety and it goes mainstream.

The same WSJ which publish this anti-Chavez rhethoric last year
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB123172065020172341.html

In the 12 days after its June 4 debut, it grossed only $18,601 on 20 screens in Venezuela, U.S.-based Variety said on its website Saturday, citing figures from Global Rentrak. http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:BT-CO-20100619-701022.html

Rentrak, who's non-executive Chairman of the board a and "significant shareholder" a Paul A. Rosenbaum has strong ties to the US establishment.

He served in the Michigan Legislature from 1972 to 1978, during which time he chaired the House Judiciary Committee, was legal counsel to the Speaker of the House and wrote and sponsored the Michigan Administrative Procedures Act. http://www.rentrak.com/section/corporate/leadership/board.html

I have no idea if the figures for the documentary are true or not, but the $18,601 figure could easily have been plucked out of the air by Rentrak to serve an agenda and becomes a "fact" to the uncritical masses

Brown Bomber

pablo_escobar wrote: »

You honestly believe the US elite care about Venezuelan people? waken up!! they don't give a **** about anyone, not even their own people!!

Absolutely. It was only last week that the US (and other white friends) in a UN resolution brough forward by Bolivia abstained from voting in favour of declaring water as a fundamental right.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/29/in_historic_vote_un_declares_access

Sooner the world can wake up to US imperialism the better.

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Absolutely. It was only last week that the US (and other white friends) in a UN resolution brough forward by Bolivia abstained from voting in favour of declaring water as a fundamental right.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/29/in_historic_vote_un_declares_access

Sooner the world can wake up to US imperialism the better.

I am assuming that u mean no blacks, yellows, browns or other colored skin memebers didnt vote on this then????

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

I am assuming that u mean no blacks, yellows, browns or other colored skin memebers didnt vote on this then????

That is a confusing statement.

When you say "no blacks...didn't vote" do you mean that your assumption is non-white dominated states didn't abstain, ie voted yes?

Actually...You know what? Who gives a **** really?

The elites of this world don't want the poor to have clean drinking water unless it lines their pockets AND ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS A THROAWAY SENTENCE TO ARGUE SOME RIDICULOUS POINT?

Priorities.

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

That is a confusing statement.

When you say "no blacks...didn't vote" do you mean that your assumption is non-white dominated states didn't abstain, ie voted yes?

Actually...You know what? Who gives a **** really?

The elites of this world don't want the poor to have clean drinking water unless it lines their pockets AND ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS A THROAWAY SENTENCE TO ARGUE SOME RIDICULOUS POINT?

Priorities.

well you do actually... since you raised the racist comment the US and other white friends......

you said it, it was a racist comment purposely put in their by you, not a throw away comment. you need to sort your priorities if skin colour is an issue to you.

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

well you do actually... since you raised the racist comment the US and other white friends......

you said it, it was a racist comment purposely put in their by you, not a throw away comment. you need to sort your priorities if skin colour is an issue to you.

I don't know what your talking about but I think you should try to understand what is actually going on before you start crying racism.

ME: WHITE
WIFE: BROWN.

Skin colour an issue to me? Clearly not!!

By White I meant as in WASP, basically english speaking countries.

So Chavez eh?

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I don't know what your talking about but I think you should try to understand what is actually going on before you start crying racism.

ME: WHITE
WIFE: BROWN.

Skin colour an issue to me? Clearly not!!

By White I meant as in WASP, basically english speaking countries.

So Chavez eh?

strange that, i am sure you said previously u where not white...

well your comment shows u are... grouping people as white...

i assume you can name the countries who followed the US and abstained????

Yitzhak Rabin

Here's an interview with Gregory Wilpirt an expert on Venezuelan and Colombian relations. It sums up what happened and how diplomatic relations have been re-established.

It is a fairly good analysis, imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84dInsHney0

If like me, you prefer to read it, here is the transcript.

August 28, 2010

RECESSION FORCING COLOMBIA VENEZUELA PEACE


Transcript

PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in New York City. Now joining us is Gregory Wilpert. He's the author of the book Changing Venezuela by Taking Power. He's now working with the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation in Venezuela. He's cofounder of the well-known website Venezuelanalysis. He is married to the Venezuelan consul general in New York City. Thanks for joining us.

GREGORY WILPERT, AUTHOR, EDITOR OF VENEZUELANALYSIS: Thanks for having me.

PAUL JAY: So let's talk a bit about Santos. The new president of Colombia and President Chávez met recently in Colombia and made up after a lot of Santos's election campaign, I've been told, was a pretty fervent get-tough-with-Venezuela position, but even more so, the rhetoric between the outgoing president, Uribe, and President Chávez had reached such a point that diplomatic relations were broken off by Chávez. Venezuela has accused Colombia of allowing the US to beef up their military bases in Colombia, which they say is being done as a threat to Venezuela. So how come all of a sudden we're hearing sounds of friendship?

WILPERT: I think the main reason that the two made up so quickly is that Santos actually represents the business interests in Colombia. That is, Colombia and Venezuela both suffered economically quite a bit due to the break-off of relations, which actually already started, at least on the economic side, last year when Uribe signed a military agreement with the United States to allow the US to use seven military bases in Colombia. And ever since then, trade between the two countries has declined something like 70 percent. And so now I think both want to recuperate that trade, and that's why they were waiting, basically, for Santos to come in, to provide an excuse to start over the relationship between the two countries. But there's another factor, too, that might be playing a role, which is the upcoming elections in Venezuela. I think Chávez wants to have a good relationship between the two country. After all, there are millions of Colombians living in Venezuela, and it hurts Venezuela to have—and not just on an economic level, but also on a personal level, to have a broken relation with Colombia.

JAY: What's the economic situation of Venezuela and Colombia? How much has the global crisis affected both countries?

WILPERT: Price of oil went down for a long time. It's recovered a little bit. But as a result, Venezuela cut back very significantly in its spending. And so that really pushed the country into a recession as a result, and it's only now recovering from that. And it had a pretty serious recession, actually, lost 3 percent of gross national product in 2009, and earlier this year, the first quarter of this year, was something like -5.8%. So it's been a pretty significant effect, and that's why I think having trade with Colombia would help overcome this recession, certainly.

JAY: The US rhetoric has been all about FARC and Venezuela, and Venezuela is the point for drugs to head north to the United States, and the Plan Colombia. Much of this rhetoric about the investment in Colombia has recently been about Venezuela. Now, Santos apparently withdrew the application or his request to the OAS to do an investigation whether FARC's in Venezuela, saying he's—I think he said, more or less, they're going to accept Venezuela's word on this. It seems a break not just with Uribe but also with the American rhetoric.

WILPERT: Colombian policy towards Venezuela has been inconsistent for—at least since Uribe came into office, for the past eight years, because there seems to be an internal tension within Colombia, that on the one hand they want the good economic relations, on the other hand they're often pushed, I think, by the United States to criticize Venezuela. And also, because they're politically on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum, they've often entered into conflict with each other. And the United States actually has been actually quite consistent in trying to foment discord between the two countries.

JAY: Now, Venezuela recently, in the last year, did some big arms purchases, I think, particularly from Russia. How much of this was about Colombia?

WILPERT: Certainly there's—a lot of it, actually, had to do with Colombia, because a lot of the arms that Venezuela has been purchasing from Russia are things like helicopters and patrol ships, a lot of it designed, actually, specifically to combat drug trafficking.

JAY: I mean, that's the big charge from Colombia, and particularly the United States, that Venezuela's not doing enough about drug trafficking. And, you know, the US has directly said that Venezuela protects FARC in Venezuela, FARC being the—some people call left, some people call narco-guerrilla group. But at any rate, it's the one in war with the Colombian government. What do we know about FARC's presence in Venezuela?

WILPERT: Well, no, we don't know very much, but one can be almost certain that there is some FARC in Venezuela, because we're talking about a 1,200 mile border between the two countries that is practically uncontrollable. Venezuela has something like three times as many soldiers along the border as Colombia does. So it's actually controlling—just from a military point of view, it's controlling the border a hell of a lot better than Colombia is. But, still, it's impossible to control the entire border. And so it's pretty certain that there's infiltration not just of Colombian guerrillas, but also of paramilitary forces, and of course of drug traffickers of various kinds. And there have been fights between the Venezuelan military and those various armed groups. So, yeah, they cross the border, but that doesn't mean that Venezuela is actively supporting them, which is the actual main argument of Colombia. There's absolutely no proof that Venezuela is supporting them. As a matter of fact, Chávez now—in this recent agreement, said that Venezuela will not tolerate any Colombian camps, guerrilla camps in Venezuela and would do all it can to actually promise—he will do all he can to get rid of them if they are found by the Venezuelan military.

JAY: So is this rapprochement with Santos and Chávez something new in Colombian-Venezuelan relations? Because they used to have these rapprochements with Uribe as well, and you'd have this war of words, and then they'd make up and visit each other's cities, and then three months later they'd be back, you know, attacking each other—verbally, at least.

WILPERT: Well, it's certainly possible that relations will break apart again, because the up and down, I would say, between the two countries almost always comes or starts in Colombia; that is, at some point, somebody launches the allegation again that Chávez is supporting the FARC or is doing something against Colombia, and that's when the relations turn sour again. And that's almost always what had happened in the past.

JAY: Is there indication that Santos plans to be more part of this Latin American front, Lula and all the other countries that have been sort of more collaborative? Or still more of this US-Colombia axis?

WILPERT: Well, the US-Colombian axis was guaranteed to be maintained and to both—continue to be strong. And that's actually one of the factors in ruining the relationship towards Venezuela and towards the other neighbors of Colombia, that the US is constantly pushing Colombia to take a harder line against Chávez or against Correa. But I think Colombia, like I said, it's torn internally. It's also very interested in strengthening ties to the rest of Latin America. It's participating, actually, in UNASUR very actively and is very interested in being a member of that, and it's interested in also the possibility of creating a bank of the South. And so it's an internally divided country in many ways, and that's just one of them.

JAY: So the drumbeats we were hearing leading—some people said—to war have stopped for now.

WILPERT: Yes, I think definitely they have stopped for now. I think it's very unlikely at this point that any kind of invasion from Colombia would happen. Santos promised that there would be no border incursion, and like I said, Chávez promised to be opposed to any FARC presence in Venezuela.

JAY: Thanks for joining us.

WILPERT: My pleasure.

JAY: Thank you for joining us on The Real News Network.

End of Transcript

I think the US will not be happy with this re-establishment of relations between the two countries.

My prediction is, it won't be long before we start to hear reports of how FARC is being supported by Venezuelan elements and it is "destabilizing the region". Also how they will be pledging to give Colombia increased support as part of the war on drugs.