Landmark Education - HELP

anonymous1984

Hi,

I'm new to boards.ie but joined on the account that a close friend of mine has become indoctrinated by this group. She has been a member for quite some time already and little by little my suspicions about it's activities, motives and treatment of its members, has grown. It has now gotten to the point where every second things she says is taken directly from LE "teachings" and has become a more self-absorbed and selfish individual e.g. people's feelings don't matter because everything is "only a perception" or "is what it is". Her parents and friends are extremely worried about her but truth be told, several of the former have become so annoyed with her as a result of her landmark-influenced actions, they have alreday cut ties.

If anyone has any experience of this or has a friend involved with their programmes, please respond.

Thanks

Gibs

Landmark Education are a cult. They have been banned in several countries and have a small presence in Ireland afaik. They are all about getting money from vulnerable people. To progress in the organisation, you have to get others to join and attend meetings.

Here's a video about them - its a French tabloid TV investigative show from afew years ago, but it gives a very clear idea of how the organisation works. (There are subtitles on the video in English)

Like any cult, your friend is at significant risk of being manipulated and essentially having her life and decision-making controlled by a nefarious organisation. I don't know anyone who has been directly involved but you could try contacting Dialogue Ireland who appear to have some expertise on cults in Ireland

Here's another good link that gives a good overview of the power of the organisation to stamp on critics

hotspur

I have been reading Acceptance and Commitment Therapy literature recently and Steve Hayes used to be involved with EST years ago. Landmark Education use the EST training. So if you can't find good stuff on Landmark Education you are sure to find stuff on EST. Here is an interesting description of what their training looked like:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/est/estpt1.html

Actually whole lot of info on landmark here:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html

JuliusCaesar

Skeptics are always a good resource for information on stuff like this.

Is that true about Steven 'ACT' Hayes? Any more info, Hotspur?

hotspur

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Skeptics are always a good resource for information on stuff like this.

Is that true about Steven 'ACT' Hayes? Any more info, Hotspur?

Well I probably should have phrased it more carefully (I would have done if it had been a thread about Hayes), but he went to a couple of EST training seminars back in the day. But then so too did several hundred thousand other Americans. I came across it in this interesting Time piece on him:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1156613-1,00.html

chivuna

Through doing Landmark I managed to say everything I ever wanted to say to my mother before she died and gave her the gift she most wanted of being reunited with my sister. I am now much more free with my family and no longer judge them. I got to love the job I do in a new way. I don't do victim any more and instead enjoy life with my friends and family

*Simone*

Gibs - I just watched that documentary video you posted - shocking. But it's only part 1, do you know where I could watch the second half? I was really getting into it.

It's sad that they explicitly look for vulnerable people to exploit their fragility and naivity. I really hope OP that your friend get's out of this before they go too deep.

Gibs

*Simone* wrote: »

Gibs - I just watched that documentary video you posted - shocking. But it's only part 1, do you know where I could watch the second half? I was really getting into it.

It's sad that they explicitly look for vulnerable people to exploit their fragility and naivity. I really hope OP that your friend get's out of this before they go too deep.

Sorry, I don't know where the rest of it can be seen. Apparently the organisation went to significant legal lengths to have that documentary banned.

Valmont

At what point can criminal proceedings or a ban of sorts be initiated against a cult? It seems like a very difficult area to police because in one sense, people have the right of association which is quite difficult interfere with- unless there is some solid evidence of criminality, of course. I suppose education and awareness is the best weapon against such groups.

Shinbreaker

I know this is an old tread but I just put 'Landmark Education' in the search engine. My cousin has just done this course this weekend and is now trying to get people to come to their graduation. I think it sounds really dodgy and after reading this page and doing a few searches on the internet I am more concerned.

What happened to your friend who was involved? I am afraid if I say too much it will push my cousin away.

Torakx

God not another cult.Strange i hadnt heard of this one before.
Its a very very hard thing to deal with.
I guess you couldsay i wa sin a cult myself.More of a religion that is legal here but i consider it borderline cult as they do control your thinking and your are scared to even look at any material that is going against the belief system on pain of being called an apostate and ridiculed or expelled and lose eternal life bla bla etc etc.

All i can say is your right not to push.Infact it might be good for you to appear supportive if possible obviously without encouraging but just showing that your not ressting.
Maybe askign questions is ok because people come to conclusions by themselves that way and the ego is less bruised.

The ego is a big part i think with cults and mind control.
Once they got a hold of that they can inflate it and tell them they have the true knowledge or way and everyone else probably in this cults reasoning is an asshole because they need the same traning to be fixed like them.
I have to say though the longer they are in the harder to get out.Because alot of the worst cults including the religion i was in(which still have a hold on my mother and two sisters) promotes seperation from the rest of the world,bad association and all that.Whatever gets them away from all those thngs that might take them out and see sense.
This is very disturbing for me,especially coming from the inside of one and trying to adjust to a world i have learned to be skeptical of and not trust.
What i remember from my past is that i would defend it to the end because i was instilled for so long and it was integrated into my ego.I wanted to help othes and show them the "truth" to save them also.

Just watch the ego that is the key to not triggering a lashback and possible seperation or distrust and distancing.Be there for them and always positive,but also it could be good to show a general natural innocent interest in what they learn and teach(by askign questions that makes them think instead of easily paroting a learned phrase,complicate the question so they have to use logic and reason to answer it so you "understand").It may cause them to later on rethink those conversations and unconscious id hope those doubt would nag away until reason wins.
I wouldnt advise doing a few classes it might be NLP type stuff and could be quite intense if they are fast workers which im guessing they are(reminds me of the scientology book i read a few weeks back called The complex).
Best of luck to all involved and i would really appreciate any updates.
One of my main interests in psychology is the very experiences i went through and how i can learn to help others like myself.

just to repeat. always positive natural questions that appear to be genuine interst.any suspicious ones that sound leading(or make them suspect you want them to stop) could prick the ego.

Oh another thought but riskier.
Imagine you were in a cult and somebody who didnt know you but somehow met you and was talking lent you an interesting book on a different cult..maybe scientology.Reading such a book about those crazy cults might cause some similarities to click and it wouldnt have been anyone telling them they are wrong.Just some stranger who lent them a book who didnt even know about this LE group.
when i was in my religion/cult we were not discouraged from learning about orther religions.Infact they had cleverly brought out a book to disprove all the rest of them one at a time lol
My point is a scientology book(maybe not too much with the word cult in it) might be acceptable reading from a random source.

chivuna

Cults typically take people away from their family, are similar to a religion and have 1 person at the top making lots of money! Landmark is an educational company and deals with how we be as humans. The current method of marketing is via word of mouth. Its called ontology and goes back to the ancient Greeks. I am educated, 'a good Irish Catholic girl', great relationship with my family most of whom have chosen to not do the course. Of course I can see the benefits for them but don't we always see what's good for others rather than look at ourselves? Yes my family were scared at first as they saw my attitudes shift. People prefer the status quo even though things may not be so great, the devil you know etc. Over time they have gotten many benefits from how I now relate to them. I say, trust yourself and how you personally experience your cousin rather than trawling through the garbage that is written. I don't know the 'paper never refused ink' saying for what is written on the internet. If you want to live a fulfilled life go for it and see what happens.

Torakx

We should indeed keep open minded
That is is actually one of my scrooples i had with my old religion,is that i was being prevented from using my critical thinking in a way that is maybe unexplainable for me right now.
All i can say is i remember being happy because i had the truth and i could see all the problems in the world and peoples attitudes were wrong.People hurting themselves,doing drugs,sex before marriage and broken families!
My goals in one respect have never changed, in that i have always and will always be seeking to help others to improve their personal experience of life.
I had thought the only way to do this was not to focus on the empowerment and knowledge of the inner self as it should be but instead my solution was try my best to share this knowledge i had.
It was a caring thing when i would try to preach.Out of love for fellow man.

Since then i have left and after a mental breakdown that was caused by this leaving and some other things physically, i have gone out and experienced as you suggested here all these things i would preach against.
Its hard for outsiders looking in to understand what it is like to decide to leave your old life behind(including all friends and contacts apart from close family) and everything that was ingrained in my personality from such a long period of what i now have studied and learned was mind control in the most subtle and decieving way.
This landmark Education i cannot comment on directly as i have as you say no experience with it! your totally justified in my mind with that opinion for this reason.

I met an old nigerian "friend" just last night when walking in town who was still in it(its been over 7 years now ^^).And i nearly kept walking only his mouth dropped when he recognised me and i stopped and was greatfull to chat to him.
What i experienced was sureal because i was looking at what i was like but from the outside!
I of course expected to be preached to and also knew i would be asked to rejoin.But not to the exent that he did.
I wanted to know how he was doing as a person and had a genuine love for him because he was always a nice man, always shaking hands and giving words of support.
What dawned on me was that the whole time we chatted and it was maybe an hour standing on the street, was the amount of times the bible and god kept coming back as the reason for this and that and how it can help me and it was put forth with a good heart not deceit.I heard one lovely(but oh too familiar ) example of this guy who was a punk and scary to look at who had tattoos on both arms etc had changed his life and that he was in a book they had and he was telling me there wa sa before and after picture and it was great that god had helped him to become what he is.Im sure that punk rocker was "happy" as i was with his new found truth.

But what i asked my nigerian friend was "When you look at those two pictures,which one of those guys is truly himself?" a crucial thing for me now since i have only discovered myself at 30 because of my troubled past.
In that moment i could see in his eyes that he knew the answer but it was conflicting with his preaching and i could see on him and remember in myself that when i was preaching to work mates or whatever,looking back it now feels like it was someone elses words coming out of my mouth.
I have not yet discovered a way to show a person what its like to view themselves from the outside when in that situation and i knew not even to bother tryng to say that to him.Eventually he got the message that i had such a strong conviction in my heart, now that my life for the first time in 30 years felt like it was actually mine.
In that religion i saw alcoholics and heroin addicts join and totally change their lives.I believe now the addictions and habits had become a part of their personality through continued use along with all its problems and the religion helped them to not be themselves.
The persons these people ussually became were amazing to see!motivated,apparently happy(ofc they gave up a sh1t lifestyle) and ussually very enthusiastic preachers.

Ive since went down the route of sex and drugs and suffered things from those too(and learned from it with a positive view).I was lucky to have personally studied psychology and nlp and was somehow able to apply it to my life,mostly i learned it was that i had never forgiven or respected myself truly and could only see it now i was doing it at 30! so thats 30 years of disrespecting/betraying my true self.
I realise i kow nothing of this group you may have joined and if you are not strong enough to help yourself i believe some people actually do need religion or something like that to take control of their lives as they were unable to learn how to do so themselves.
What i would say is that if this landmark education is truly a help to people,those people will be able to leave that enviornment after a certain time with good feelings from the group and in themselves about it and continue to function hopefully better in life afterwards.
I thought i had the truth until i left and suffered a post cult syndrome as i think its known as in psychology.So obviously in my case it took years to even aknowledge and then forgive etc.

All il say in relation to people trying ANY group is to remember and cherish your individuality and also to test yourself by seeing what happens when you seperate.
If you recieve negative feelings/responses for doing things outside of that or find the rules wthin are enforced at the price of exclusion from the group then its worth considering my story and questioning if this is the ONLY way for you to do things.
I found a way that suited me better and yet still think those addicts who have no power over themselves maybe need to give their power to someone else.
The choice is ours in the end with each individual and
nobody can tell you how to live your life! You must choose to live it or have a method live it for you.

I share this now in truly a heart felt way(unlike in my past).I dont have an ideology or one way i think something has to be done or fixed.
I went against it and really what i have done is show myself a kind of power within to have left such strong subtle control that had a grip on my life since a child.I have one friend who followed me out and all the rest are inside still dealing with issues they cannot fix but cover over with a manufactured personality.

Anyway to a those in or thinking of joining a group with a common purpose no matter what.Dont ever forget who your are and what you want from life.Because a group can suck your individuality even one with no purpose if you let it.
I just feel people need to simply find themselves like i have done and i have quit drugs,smoking and some other natural unhealthy things like sugar and tea(with relative ease!) and all with my own new found power not from god or a method or group, but simply by forgiving myself! and allowing myself to move on.
The motivation to now further improve my life has followed because of this and i could never have done this while in a group like i was in.

Best wishes to all who read this story and do not take it to heart.
It truly is the key to changing your life.Give yourself to someone and let them do it or give yourself fully to yourself.
That choice can only be made by the individual.Respect it because as i have seen it could be the last individual choice you will make until you are buried in the ground.Im now living MY life i hope you do too no matter what group your with.

Sorry again to also appear to make presumptions about a group i dont know,.I was talking before about cults and more generally groups.Its just a label to generally describe something for handyness in my view and realise everything is certainly not all black and white.My old religion didnt officailly break up families its just what happened because of it in some scenarios.Rules and ideologies can be bent to truths and praticalities.

hotspur

chivuna wrote: »

The current method of marketing is via word of mouth. Its called ontology and goes back to the ancient Greeks.

I don't think you know what the term ontology means.

josealdo

chivuna wrote: »

Landmark is an educational company and deals with how we be as humans. ........ Its called ontology and goes back to the ancient Greeks.

hotspur ..... chivuna's statement is accurate when read in context .

JuliusCaesar

There's no point replying to a THREE year old thread. It died, and should not be revived. This is why it is known as a ZOMBIE thread...

josealdo

Landmark is a money racket , the information isn't anything new , save your money






What's not to understand? :puzzled: Please read some posts, not just the headline! JC

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

There's no point replying to a THREE year old thread. It died, and should not be revived. This is why it is known as a ZOMBIE thread...