Landmark Education - help

anonymous1984

Hi,

I'm new to boards.ie but joined on the account that a close friend of mine has become indoctrinated by this group. She has been a member for quite some time already and little by little my suspicions about it's activities, motives and treatment of its members, has grown. It has now gotten to the point where every second things she says is taken directly from LE "teachings" and has become a more self-absorbed and selfish individual e.g. people's feelings don't matter because everything is "only a perception" or "is what it is". Her parents and friends are extremely worried about her but truth be told, several of the former have become so annoyed with her as a result of her landmark-influenced actions, they have alreday cut ties.

If anyone has any experience of this or has a friend involved with their programmes, please respond.

Thanks

David Matthew

Hi Anonymous1984,

I don't know anyone personally connected to that group, but I can sympathize with your position. I know what it's like when somebody close to you becomes completely taken over by a group resembling a sect or cult.

Sometimes life itself is the only thing that has any chance of shaking them out of this parroting/proselytizing approach; for instance, the person I knew who was effectively brainwashed for a time slowly emerged out of it once the 'leader' receded from the scene (having suffered a stroke of some kind). I realize this is no solution, however!

Some people, unfortunately, have a strong need to feel like they have finally 'cracked' life, that they belong to an elect, enlightened few; and all this, to avoid the potential anguish and suffering that results from living in an honest search for truth. I don't mean to say that anyone who does 'crack' life is by that token 'cracked' themselves, if you will; that would itself be a dogmatic position. But it does seem as though your friend has taken a lazy way out, and that the only thing she is really showing other people is that she is excessively self-centred and possesses scant ability to think for herself. Any cult's dream candidate, I'm sure.

Apologies if I'm being overly harsh - I obviously don't know this person you're talking about. I don't know if it would help to confront her with the self-defeating nature of her arguments? If everything is 'just a perception' for instance, so to is her 'perception' of LE (and everything else); her thinking she has 'found the way' is very much 'just a perception', by her own admission. And if hurting people can be brushed off with a 'it is what it is' approach, so to could things like murder. The example is extreme, but surely it's only a difference of degree; what you're basically asking is, 'Do you give a **** about people or not?'

These sorts of tactics can often prove fruitless however. Confrontations with fanatical people often create the very opposite effect of what was initially intended. Chasms may further stretch and yawn till there's little hope of bridging the divide. But then again... it all depends on how you do it. Perhaps there is still a trace of philosophical authenticity in her yet?

roosh

the name vaguely rings a bell. I think I came across someone who said they had done a course with them before. If it was the same course, then the person I met wasn't too adversely affected.

The following represents my opinion only, and is not based on any formal training or experience in these situations.

You've probably already done this, but Here are the google results for Landmark Education, and here are the google results for "Landmark Education cult".

I would say, that as far as you can, without putting yourself in adverse situation, accept your frineds decision and be there for him/her. Find out as much as you can about the organisation, and be open to the possibility that your own perception is not entirely accurate, and that LE is not as bad as you may think. Often times when people make changes in their life, which are better for themselves, and which are not part of the "norm", frineds and family can become suspicious. That is not to say, that they are wrong about their observations, but sometimes a change in the person they "know" and love, can be met with fear and resistance. The best thing, I would imagine, is to keep close to your friend, so that if they start to get too deep into something, and the direction they are taking seems more dangerous, then you will be in a better position to talk to them, than someone who cuts off contact.

It might be worth showing an interest in what they are doing, so that you can get a better understanding of it. Obviously they seem to be getting something from it, which makes them feel better (if only falsely so), so telling them that what they are doing is wrong, and that they should go back to their old way of life, will not be an option for them. If you can figure out what exactly it is that they are getting from this organisation, you might be in a better position to suggest alternatives.


From what you have said, it sounds like your friend is being treated to spirituality, without the spirituality, in that they are being taught the basic principles of it, potentially from people who have seen the potential to exploit the benefits. The course might help them develop a superficial understanding, which they apply for the betterment of themselves, as opposed to everyone.

From the website, it sounds like what they are doing is a course, which will have a set duration. If you can find out how long it will last, this might ease your worries, if you think they are getting into a lifelong cult.

The key thing, I would think is, don't ostracise them.

xyzjmt

The website of Dialogue Ireland has some background information on Landmark Education and might possibly be able to provide some kind of support.

Suzy sue

I do hope you don't mind a newbie getting involved in your discussion here but i would love to add in my view here to give a slightly more balanced view of Landmark - seeing out of the few of us on this thread i am the only one who has actually done some of the programmes, at the Euston branch in London. PS do read through to the end but no cheating as i'll give you as balanced a view as i can of Landmark - warts (sadly not many) and all!

My initial reaction:

When i first heard about Landmark i too was sceptical and read the reviews and didn't want to know anymore, then 5 years later a friend had done it and i saw she just radiated something i hadn't seen in anyone before, so i said ok i'll look into it - again i read a few bits on the net that made it sound terrible (written by people who either hadn't done it or had done a bit without getting full picture or just didn't get the landmark way of educating - abit like going into an operating theatre and seeing blood everywhere, making a judgement like we do - we're human, when in fact you should be looking at the skill of the surgeons masterfulness in keeping the patient alive! Many of us are like the living dead and aren't in optimum action!), but somehow i knew i had to try it and OMG it is THE most powerful set of self-development programmes i have ever attended and as a life coach i've attended a few courses (which are the same old stuff regurgitated with different labels).

Who attends?

Indeed i know a lot of top Life coaches have also done the landmark programme, along with many olympic athletes, along with many well known actors, along with every other Tom, Dick and Harry and Harriet who wants to do it etc. Over 1 million people around the globe have done it. Indeed i have done numerous courses where people were getting the train every week down from Yorkshire or Cornwall to do various courses and Slovakians were flying in by the planeful to do the courses! It was amazing how far people travelled to get what they wanted.

Why is this Education so unique?

It is a programme of courses that are worth more than a sum of its parts and cheap at the price - with hindsight i would have willingly paid double for what i've gained from it. Landmark is different and absolutely amazing from what i had encountered previously. The journey isn't designed to be fluffy and soft, it is hardcore and confronting in places - confronting as in we confront ourselves with now dealing with our issues that up till now we haven't dealt with or dealt with unsatisfactorily, but that is why its great, as in life we get confronted by stuff all the time and half the time we don't know that that is the case, so we bail out of or keep messing up jobs, relationships, and indeed all other areas of our lives just believing that that isn't our thing rather than simply having a conversation with someone to clarify differences of opinion or having more integrity around our own actions. Where as Landmark gets you to face stuff head on (and you are 100% control of this and believe me students will duck and dive doing their homework! and so consequently it will take them longer to sort out their issues as they avoiding being responsible etc) and deal with it, be responsible for our actions rather than running away as we might have done. I could write so much about what i've learnt and once i get started i can't stop, so good are the courses. Anyway i don't know any of you but i do hope that one day you might just do the courses - i promise you you won't be disappointed and it will open up so much for you.

So what types of areas does Landmark cover?

I started going there in 2007 and each year since then i do another course to keep myself in check - as i am a stubborn creature who by nature hates being told what to do and yet i know and trust Landmark implicitly to give me the proverbial kick up the backside. So far i have done the Landmark Forum - which gives you the basics of the education and key elements of the coaching technology (absoluting fascinating and i promise you these elements are life changing in a positive and empowering way), the Advanced Forum - where you learn what your 'act' is and we each have got one (mine is 'i know best and i'll do what i want to do and when i want to do it'!) and how our act actually doesn't do us any real favours and how to live with your act once you've identified it as it doesn't go away and at least now you can go for damage limitation! lol and setting a 'possibility' for our future ( a 'possibility' is a type of future vision that we haven't attained as yet) - i set mine as 'i am an amazing actress who helps heal the world' - see way down below as to how this is now starting to manifest itself. Then i did the 'self-expression and leadership programme' where you do a 'community' project, then i did the 'relationship seminar series', then the 'sex and intimacy seminar series' (yep that got your attention!), the 'money seminar series' and now i'm doing the 'health seminar series' (must of the seminar series are approx 10 weeks of 3 hour sessions). In each one it isn't a 'how to guide' but 'who you are being' around each of these areas and most of us our 'jerks' including me if i'm honest! Hence these areas don't go to plan (unless you are lucky to be perfect!). If you like psychologically sussing out people and yourself then do the landmark forum, as you find out so much about why we are driven to do certain things in certain ways, identifying our bad habits and where and why we resist to change etc. The courses are incredibly powerful and when you hear about people's breakthroughs in their resistences etc it is highly inspiring! There are loads more courses too that i haven't yet done...

What has Landmark done for me?

Since doing Landmark my motto is 'Making a difference, making it happen and everything is possible' this empowers me - indeed i have a camera crew from BBC1 coming over a week on Monday to do a piece on something i complained about that should help prevent a large number of other people making same mistake! Landmark gave me the confidence to do this.

So what else did i get out of Landmark? Well before my Father died of cancer two years ago i got complete with him that i loved him and am so glad i had that conversation as it made his passing easier for me to deal with. I had festering issues with ex-boyfriends and phoned them and apologised for my behaviour and my participation in the 'issues'. I am now an Actress and want to go into comedy acting with a view to being in my own sitcom one day thats gets aired around the globe, makes people laugh and helps heal people through the laughter (as well as me sending the planet Reiki healing). So I have now courageously signed up to do a stand up comedy course (elsewhere obviously). Finally (for now) I now recognise where my issues are and that i am responsible for dealing with those issues and not blaming other people and so on.

Why is a landmark not a cult?

1) the doors are open and you can leave at any time and probably 1-2 out of 200 people at any of Landmark Forums will walk out. That is not any different to any other development course incidentally - may even be better than average! and strange as it may be to believe as you think we are a cult, but some do actually come back again of their own free will and are so pleased that they finally made the right decision and indeed some have gone onto to become amazing Seminar Leaders who have overcome their confronting issues.
2) we have homework each week e.g. i am doing the Health seminar series at the moment and one week the homework was to count the calories in our food for 5 days - simple task and yet a number of people got confronted by it and didn't do it. But that's life - look at any work place or even at your home or in your relationships with friends etc - how many times is someone supposed to do something and they don't - they couldn't be bothered or allow themselves to get confronted and not deal with it and thats how they live their life!
3) we are educated to be 100% responsible and accountable for our lives and to have integrity i.e. say what we're going to do and do it. And yet a percent of students still continue messing up their lives even doing the course. That's their choice to carry on living like that if thats what they want!
4) We are encouraged to share about ourselves and be open and have very honest conversations that wouldn't have normally happen with your nearest and dearest and also complete strangers.
5) The course will not change you but it will help you deal and lose some, if not all, of your emotional baggage (that's if you want to lose it and you do the course properly) hallelujah - whats wrong with that! I for sure am damn glad i got rid of various festering things that were whirling around my head for the last few years. My mind now feels clearer and i can think straight again at long last!

So tell me how it is a cult if that is what you chose to believe?

I am not flawless but i am doing something about 'who i am' around the parts of my life that aren't working properly.

Now before you think i'm part of the cult let me explain a little more. Some people do the course full out - maybe like your friend (in the first post), some people half play full out (do the bits they like) and some people just skim through all the courses. I will admit i'm probably in the latter two groups (naughty old me!)! Now let me be honest with you I find 'some' and i repeat 'some' students are a little 'intense' especially in their early days and this can be worked on with your sharing back to your friend as to how they come across but don't make them wrong - they do mean well i can assure you. It is part of their learning to know how to come across effectively, so help them, they they can request coaching from landmark coaches to tweak their communication skills.

Also i will share this with you i don't like people who are intense either! Each time i attend Landmark sessions i hope i sit next to someone like me who is in the latter two groups who hopefully won't pick me up of my shortfalls or notice my resistence to dealing with my issues! But guess what these intense people always seem to sit next to me and i don't like it but guess what i learn a damn sight more from them not letting me off my little hook till i have had a breakthrough in my understandings and i am wholly grateful to them! So i can only but encourage you to change your listening to your friend who did landmark and really hear what she/he really has to say, as i will tell you again it is the best self-development programme i have ever done - i by the way get nothing out of your going/not going.

What is all this sharing about?

Finally there is also an emphasis on sharing yourself with others when you do Landmark and that is what your friend is doing and in essence all they are doing i suspect is requesting that you at least pop into an introduction evening or session and decide if it is your thing or not. Landmark do not advertise their programmes as part of their philosphy is about students sharing themselves with others because we as humans are actually not good at sharing or having proper wholesome conversations, so by sharing -and i can assure you that the friend who shared with you was probably confronted about sharing with you but plucked up the courage to do so none the less. But by sharing and plucking up courage this friend will now be able to pluck up courage and share herself elsewhere in her life. She'll have greater confidence in e.g. requesting a payrise, asking someone out, requesting anything else that is hard to request. So this sharing and asking you to possibly attend an induction evening is a powerful and life changing multi-facted element of Landmarks education philosophy and not there just to get bums on seats. All you do then do is attend an induction session if you want to - see with your own eyes what its all about and then make a decision - yes or no.

Why do we share about Landmark - its because those of us who have done the programme know how great it is - i don't know anyone out of the thousands i have met who has any regrets in attending and all we want is for you to get the same out of it as us, it may seem like there is a pressure on you but it comes with 'love' from your friend but you have a completely free will to say no and leave. Personally i would do the programme -its made my life so much simpler as now i can deal with stuff that gets in my way so much more easily know i know how to deal with it! You can simply chose not to do the programme and carry on living the life your currently have. I know i have chosen to do it and have no regrets. I get confronted by myself when i go but i chose to go as i need a kick up the backside. Remember that I am as stubborn as a mule and yet i know ultimately that this course is good for me.

Anyway i'll shut up now as have been typing this reply for well over an hour! lol and its now 5.33am! Why because i'm passionate about Landmark! There is no other reason, no conspiracy, no cult, i promise.

The End

Cheers
Suzy Sue x

David Matthew

Hi Suzy Sue,

There are positive points in your post; we appreciate you sharing your experience.

Suzy sue wrote: »

you find out so much about why we are driven to do certain things in certain ways, identifying our bad habits and where and why we resist to change etc. The courses are incredibly powerful and when you hear about people's breakthroughs in their resistences etc it is highly inspiring!

Most people would agree, without hesitation, that personal stories of triumph, breakthroughs and overcoming resistance are indeed inspiring. And congratulations on your acting prospects. You sound very motivated and I wish you well.

However, what I would like to point out here is that this thread is more about helping an individual communicate and empathize with those close to her; those who have been close to her all her life, perhaps. It is not necessarily about defending the LE camp. It is incidental that LE are involved; people can become overly influenced by anything that comes their way. It is about vulnerability, susceptibility and (I’m sure in a lot of cases) timing.

Suzy sue wrote: »

Now let me be honest with you I find 'some' and i repeat 'some' students are a little 'intense' especially in their early days and this can be worked on with your sharing back to your friend as to how they come across but don't make them wrong - they do mean well i can assure you... Also i will share this with you i don't like people who are intense either!

The issue is not intensity; it is empathy. The OP is not professing a dislike of intense people, so feeling you share this aversion in common is, I think, missing the point.

Suzy sue wrote: »

So i can only but encourage you to change your listening to your friend who did landmark and really hear what she/he really has to say, as i will tell you again it is the best self-development programme i have ever done…

Your advice seems to boil down to ‘actually’ listening to the OP’s friend. I don’t think this represents a balanced view. And your explicit patronage of LE will be off-putting to most people who take the time to read your post. I would encourage you to analyze the post again, and see the traces of exclusivity and, I feel, condescension betrayed therein.

Suzy sue wrote: »

Many of us are like the living dead and aren't in optimum action!… we as humans are actually not good at sharing or having proper wholesome conversations… I am not flawless but i am doing something about 'who i am' around the parts of my life that aren't working properly… those of us who have done the programme know how great it is... it may seem like there is a pressure on you but it comes with 'love'... You can simply chose not to do the programme and carry on living the life your currently have.

Forgive me for thinking that this ‘us-and-them’ attitude is anything but helpful, and will only foster further division among people. In your post, there is a strong sense of either belonging to the LE way, or the ‘rest’ of humanity. In my opinion, life itself is the great teacher; we don’t all require Seminar Leaders. I’m sure you don’t think so either, but I’m just pointing out what could be some communicative shortfalls on your part. I do get a ‘fanatical’ feel from the post. The following are cases in point:

Suzy sue wrote: »

somehow i knew i had to try it and OMG it is THE most powerful set of self-development programmes
It is a programme of courses that are worth more than a sum of its parts and cheap at the price - with hindsight i would have willingly paid double for what i've gained from it. Landmark is different and absolutely amazing from what i had encountered previously. The journey isn't designed to be fluffy and soft, it is hardcore and confronting...

Suzy sue wrote: »

So tell me how it is a cult if that is what you chose to believe?

I don’t know much about LE at all, so I’m not going to argue as to whether it should be classed as a cult or not. I think we should get back to helping the OP communicate with his/her friend.

Suzy sue

Hi David

A genuine thank you so much for pointing out my shortcomings in my response. I suppose when i came across this thread my reaction was four-fold:

a) try and give some context as to what Landmark was all about so that 'Anonymous1984' could see where his friend was coming from - and we will have to wait and see if anything i have said sits comfortably with him or helps him gain a better understanding.
b) Others were adding their thoughts in, again without knowing anything or much about Landmark and i guess i went on the defensive.
c) I am very passionate (rather than fanatical - sorry if that came across like that) about Landmark, as i have nothing to say except praise for everything its done for me and hundreds of others i've met and i could talk about my and their expereinces for ever and a day! lol
d) I get 'offended' when Landmark is 'slagged off' or certain words are used like 'indoctrinated', 'cult' etc as it just isn't like that - the trouble is those who make the negative comments are often those who haven't done the programme or not done it as it is intended or have encountered one individual who they have deemed as being representative of the whole programme (and apologies again if i've unwittingly done that myself - i just get so enthused!), when that may not be the case and consequently a lot of damage is done that puts people off attending the programmes, when i've seen how fantastically people have turned their lives around as a result of attending and i believe that these people who don't go would benefit hugely in attending.

I have just quickly skimmed over one of your paragraphs and you said "Some people, unfortunately, have a strong need to feel like they have finally 'cracked' life, that they belong to an elect, enlightened few; and all this, to avoid the potential anguish and suffering that results from living in an honest search for truth. I don't mean to say that anyone who does 'crack' life is by that token 'cracked' themselves, if you will; that would itself be a dogmatic position. But it does seem as though your friend has taken a lazy way out, and that the only thing she is really showing other people is that she is excessively self-centred and possesses scant ability to think for herself. Any cult's dream candidate, I'm sure."

Just some points to mention here about what you said - the 'cracking of life' - well i hate to say it but it has certainly helped me 'crack' life as i know it so far and given me a phenomenal understanding of why we behave the way we do and thank goodness for that! I definitely don't think we think we are elite or elect above others. I do however feel hugely enlightened but then thats my path spiritually anyway and yes i still have lots to learn. I am not 'cracked' myself nor indeed is anyone else on the programme (i don't think you were implying that but just clarfying that point to anyone else reading this) - indeed anyone with serious mental health issues would not be permitted to do the programme. I take 'issue' with you saying this friend has taken the easy way out - Landmark is not easy option, trust me! In fact not doing landmark is the easy option IMHO... i know as i have been on both sides of this 'coin'. We can't really comment on this friend of 'Anonymous' by saying she is 'self-centred' if all she is trying to do is pass on how good the course is or whatever message shes trying to get over. Doing Landmark doesn't stop 'life occuring around you' but it does give you the tools to use to help you deal with life's issues as long as you use them. and again the use of emotive words like 'cult' when it just isn't.


So anyway once again sorry if what i wrote didn't sit comfortably with you or anyone else and sorry again if i got on the defensive again here. I meant well and I always write from my heart.

In fact i just read Mangaroosh's response and totally agree with him.

As in any relationship both parties must take 100% responsibility for their actions for the relationship to work effectively. So I think it would be good if Anonymous could just speak to his friend and have an open conversation about how her behaviour has impacted on him, without making her wrong in the process. This change in behavoiur as I believe someone said previously, can happen when people have attended any manner of things be it church, life coaching and sometimes relationships can breakdown (temporarily or even permanently) during this transitionary process - that's not to say the relationships can't expereince breakthroughs at a later date. But i just think open conversation between Anonymous and his friend would help if it hasn't already been done. Maybe she could request further landmark coaching to help her be more effective in her communications and in these relationships around her. Also sometimes people who are overly-enthused, may gradually settle back down.

I'm sure you'll have more to say (lol) and thanks again for engaging in this conversation.

Thanks again
Suzy sue

David Matthew

Hi Suzy Sue,

You certainly show yourself to be a very reasonable individual, and have taken aboard any criticisms I had of your initial post in an exceptionally mature manner. I was a little anxious to read your reply, as I felt I had been a little blunt in places, but thanks for taking what I had to say in such good spirit.

Just to clear something up; when I said above that the OP's friend seemed to have taken an easy way out, I didn't mean that anybody who enrols in an LE course is thereby doing the same. As I haven't any direct/pertinent experience of LE, I can't be the judge of that. What I meant was that she appeared to be adopting an attitude indicative of an 'easy way out' approach; in other words, she appeared to be using LE's teachings as a way of closing herself off, or desensitising herself to the feelings of others. From what you've said, this would appear to be in direct contradiction of LE's intent.

Just as the Muslim faith may have its bad apples (suicide-bombers are a good example), any creed/system of thought will inevitably bear the burden of those who have the potential to give it a bad name. Anything that becomes widely disseminated/popular is bound to suffer a similar fate. Perhaps LE belongs to this category.

I only hope that the OP and the individual in question find a way to communicate effectively. In this respect, we are in complete agreement.

All the best with your career,

David.