Dublin buildings height restrictions proposal to be heard tonight

syklops

Hi,

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in Infrastructure. I think it is relative to both.

This is from Breaking news:

A new height restriction that would see new buildings in Dublin capped at four stories is being proposed at a Council meeting this evening.

However the Construction Industry Federation has warned that the restriction would act as a disincentive to multinationals seeking to set up here.

The CIF's Martin Whelan said reducing height beyond what is already catered for in the existing development plan "will be a problem and should be avoided".

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-buildings-height-restriction-proposal-to-be-heard-tonight-466788.html#ixzz0ulnZlycq

I was just wondering what other peoples views on this was. Personally, I think it is madness. The CIF have pointed out that it could be a disincentive for multinationals. which is a very good point. As an example the Microsoft HQ in Sandyford is about 8 stories. The BT building on Grand Canal Dock is at least 8, and I don't know what the IFSC is, but it looks more than that.

Imagine a multi-national thinking of moving its corporate headquarters to Dublin, where it wants to build a 10-storey building to cater for the 500+ people it will be employing in the area. Are we really going to paint ourselves into a corner, and say no you cant. You will have to build 2 or 3 smaller buildings of 4 stories each.

Another point that springs to mind is the preservation of our environment. Now I am not your standard environmentalist. In fact I would not consider my self an environmentalist at all, but I am getting increasingly worried about how much of our green island is getting concrete laid over it. They should be putting restrictions on the boundary of Dublin city, and limit the area it is going to grow from now on. Not limiting vertical expansion and incentivising further expansion of the city into the country side.

I understand the argument that the various historical buildings of Dublin should not be over shadowed by modern new buildings, but there are ways around that. There is already a clause that permission can be denied if it is not in keeping with surrounding buildings. That could be used if an application was made near a building of historical importance. Many parts of Dublin have few buildings or sites of historical or cultural importance. There are plenty of places where tall buildings could be built with out affecting or casting a shadow on our important heritage sites.

Does anyone agree with me?

dan_d

When you look at dublin from a height within the city - ie from a rooftop, or a top floor of a building, it is essentially quite a low city.

However 4 stories is a bit ludicrous. There are plenty of 5-8 story buildings in the city centre, particularly around the docklands, and they don't stand out. Surprisingly so. It should also be kept in mind that Dublin is in a basin, therefore there are a surprising number of hills circling the city centre, meaning that the heights of buildings balance out. I would be in favour of restricting building heights around the outskirts of the capital, not including insustrial estates - maybe to 5 stories or so - as they will stand out more there. However restricting heights in the city centre to 4 stories is not a good idea.

seamus

Liberty hall seems like a reasonable height without going to insane levels. 4 stories is a joke. I'm sitting on the fifth floor of a building right now, surrounded by 6-storey buildings and it still all seems very low.

Especially when compared to Croke Park which I can see in the distance.

ei.sdraob

People you are all missing the "real" reason for this proposal

if the building heights reduced

then any future building would be on brownsites and/or spreading the capital even wider onto new green fields

Fields that some developers cunningly bought, passed few brown envelopes around, and are now waiting to build on

This restriction if it comes in effect would make the city spread out making someone somewhere richer

astrofool

This seems an absolutely stupid thing to do.

So no surprise to see us (Ireland) do it.

Cookie_Monster

4 storey limit is just mad, 40 would be more like it

Tabnabs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

People you are all missing the "real" reason for this proposal

if the building heights reduced

then any future building would be on brownsites and/or spreading the capital even wider onto new green fields

Fields that some developers cunningly bought, passed few brown envelopes around, and are now waiting to build on

This restriction if it comes in effect would make the city spread out making someone somewhere richer

I thought the same thing. This limit would only apply to Dublin City Council and leave the way for the other three Dublin councils to develop a "decentralised" approach to business, technology, residential etc. developments.

Of course the other side of the coin is if DCC fail to ratify the proposal, then it paves the way for high rise development in their jurisdiction.

(TBH I can see a case for this from the IGB site out to Pigeon House.)

Sulmac

What a stupid idea, there should be no "limit" and applications should all be treated separately based on their location and purpose (among other things).

We need to build up, not out.

Laminations

This height restriction is typical Irish ninkinpoopery. You'd swear London/Rome/Berlin etc had no heritage or historical buildings to protect what with them building upwards - my god are they mad, what if a building was in shadow for part of the day, we just couldn't have that. Planners here seem to greatly underappreciate the beauty of an interesting non-uniform skyline dotted with landmark buildings

daithicarr

this seems utter madness, each building should be assesed on its own merits, with proper planning a lot of taller buildings could be incorporated in to the city without damaging the citys heritage. they do it all over the world.

we need higher density, it allows better public transport and other infrastructure and services.
This would be a massive disensentive to companys to set up here, building up saves money on hugely expensive city sites.

it does seem that it is to help develop all these empty sites bought at massive prices during the boom. there really should be some independant body which can investigate political corruption. maybe a branch of the Gardai, we have a large traffic corps, political corruption is far more serious.

yoshytoshy

I don't think we have great buildings in Dublin ,apart from a few. Can't see the inspiration for anyone building a mole hill ,we need taller buildings around dublin and also architecturally inspiring work.

Cookie_Monster

anyone know the outcome?

Lloyd Xmas

This is the kind of news that confirms that this town is run by utter morons bereft of ideas, and unable to think beyond today.

We already have people making two hour commutes to and from work, so to solve this problem, we decide to make it a four hour commute instead.

Jesus wept! Dublin, with the exception of Georgian buildings, is utterly bereft of quality. The argument against building upwards usually goes down the path of protecting the Georgian facades.
The is no reason however that periods couldn't stand alongside, and even complement each other.

If it wasn't for the English influence we wouldn't have the Georgian buildings and we'd probably have an entire city looking like Camden St or Dorset St.

I'd would have been fantastic to have seen a few skyscrapers around the IFSC, almost like a statement of Irelands intent. (Our intent to destroy our economy :rolleyes:)

As someone stated previously though, it all boils down the brown envelopes and brown nosing society in which we live.

silverharp

I must say An Taisce are getting on my tits, they had someone on the radio this morning saying that Dublin should be like a European city, not like
Frankfurt

I was in Dortmund last week and while most people live in 4 or 5 storey buildings there are 20 to 40 storey office buildings scattered around the city and its not even a major city. Does it affect the quality of life of anybody there, not a bit, does it free up space for recreation etc, sure does

Laminations

silverharp wrote: »

Does it affect the quality of life of anybody there, not a bit, does it free up space for recreation etc, sure does

So it does affect quality of life, it improves it

These planning boards would be the first quangos I'd overhaul if I had the chance, they failed dismally during the boom years to plan responsibly and are failing now to recognise projects of merit (actually they have always failed to do this, being the conservative bunch they are), they slowtrain everything wrapping it in so much red tape

daithicarr

i think one major problem is the poor training of the planners, by and large they have no architectural, engineering or other relevant backround. Better training is needed so that they understand not only the asthetics of a building but also of a urban area as a whole and how it functions as a unit rather than a collection of individual (and generaly poorly designed ) buildings.

Macha

Looks like the restriction was adopted. Oh dear...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0728/1224275614559.html

syklops

taconnol wrote: »

Looks like the restriction was adopted. Oh dear...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0728/1224275614559.html

Idiots.

thebman

The only possible reason I can think for this is more land zoned = more dodgy planning decisions (ie. kickbacks for irregular, improper zoning decisions).

Cookie_Monster

taconnol wrote: »

Looks like the restriction was adopted. Oh dear...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0728/1224275614559.html

what planet are those ****ing morons on?

How can they possibly justify building out rather than up given the mess of a city already.

Is Sandyford within this remit or is that SDCC or DLRCoCo, this is likely to be the heart of Irelands "sky scrapers" anyway IMO

Overature

yeah thats a stupid idea, if they cap them at 4 storeys then people will end up building out wards, like into the suburbs. the city should go up instead of out, im surprised we dont have any sky scrapers

daithicarr

i imagine this idiotic decision will go largely un noticed. it seems that those with the power over these matters have little or no vision and ability in regards to urban planning , which in turn has a impact on the quality of lives of the citizens of dublin. very disappointing

syklops

daithicarr wrote: »

i imagine this idiotic decision will go largely un noticed. it seems that those with the power over these matters have little or no vision and ability in regards to urban planning , which in turn has a impact on the quality of lives of the citizens of dublin. very disappointing

I am going to write to Minister Gormley, and to the Fine gael Environment spokesman Phil Hogan about this. This has long term, real world environmental implications. If I get no or a dis-satisfactory responses I will go to Labour.

This is either incompetence or corruption of the highest order. Neither can I stand.

Macha

You might try writing to your local councillor:

http://www.dublincity.ie/YourCouncil/Councillors/YourLocalCouncillors/Pages/FindYourLocalCouncillorsHome.aspx

No official documents on the decision that I can find.

Lloyd Xmas

Absolute disgrace - Sh*t like this is absolutely infuriating :mad:

Its always "counsillors" have recommended....
Which counsillors? Put a name to the eejits making these decisions so that anyone with an ounce of sense can express their dissatisfaction and demand a bloody reply requesting reasons as to why such decisions are made.

As someone said, this will go without so much as a whisper.
Its nearly at the stage now where the gang from Apres Match are making better calls than the clowns they're taking the mick out off.
When is this lunacy ever going to end at all.

mecanoman

So they don't want people building upwards, no to urban sprawl.

That leaves underground, Nation of Mole people!

djpbarry

Just when you thought you were running out of reasons to emigrate.

syklops wrote: »

I am going to write to Minister Gormley, and to the Fine gael Environment spokesman Phil Hogan about this.

Might I also suggest that everyone in Dublin City contacts their local councillors and asks them to explain the rationale behind this bizarre decision. The cynic in me is inclined to agree with syklops and view this as an arseways attempt to resuscitate the construction industry. I cannot decide if this is well-intentioned incompetence or out-and-out pandering to property developers (or builders, as they used to be known).

Lloyd Xmas

Surely there's some type of shenanigans here, I mean it beggers belief.
Guys like that punk from the "Irish Property Council" who was on the Frontline numerous times trying to drum up support for his members and get the property band wagon started up again are a danger to this society. A toxic little Me Feiner if ever there was one.

daithicarr

syklops wrote: »

I am going to write to Minister Gormley, and to the Fine gael Environment spokesman Phil Hogan about this. This has long term, real world environmental implications. If I get no or a dis-satisfactory responses I will go to Labour.

This is either incompetence or corruption of the highest order. Neither can I stand.

I think ill do the same, not sure if it will be of much good, but if we all sit around and do nothing they would think we are all happy with their incompetance/corruption.

Idbatterim

God what a pathetic "CITY" we live in!

galwayrush

This restriction would be a joke in our other vastly smaller cities and towns. Words fail to describe the stupidity of it in the already sprawling mess that is the Dublin urban area.

daithicarr

given our population is suposed to rise to 6.5 million in 20 years youd think they would have some sort of long term plan in place, with this sort of planning they will just have massive urban sprawl and low density living wich cant sustain a proper public transport network.

Id imagine given their lack of forsight most this growth will take place in dublin (its commuter towns) and to a much lesser extent in cork.

having lived in irelands three largest citys it is plain to see that there is little in the way of long term or even short term planning, dublin and cork and too a much greater degree Limerick is blighted by terrible planning which is leading to urban sprawl and development going to the suburbs, away from the city centers and in such low densitys that a car is the only option to travel.

We should be moving towards higher density citys not smaller. its just crazy. equally i dont know why all the apartments/flats have to be significantly smaller than the average house and often of even poorer quality. Building upwards should save on land costs a significant portion of the building cost (around 50% i beleive) which could easily be translated in to larger and better quality or at the very least sound proofed dwellings.

nesf

My esteem of local level politicians just dropped another notch*.







*More accurately, I had to go to the trouble of cutting another notch at the bottom of my esteem measuring stick to cater for them.

nesf

I would also like to note that this is a fine example of stupid ass gombeen politics of the lowest browed kind is not just confined to the rural constituencies out in the Sticks.

Guy:Incognito

syklops wrote: »

I am going to write to Minister Gormley, and to the Fine gael Environment spokesman Phil Hogan about this. This has long term, real world environmental implications. If I get no or a dis-satisfactory responses I will go to Labour.

This is either incompetence or corruption of the highest order. Neither can I stand.

Whats the point in writign to them? They all have members on the council, it's not a FF council so it was pretty much an all party decision.

silverharp

in reality though there will be sod all new buildings for a decade, and a lot of water will have gone under the bridge by then

zootroid

silverharp wrote: »

in reality though there will be sod all new buildings for a decade, and a lot of water will have gone under the bridge by then

That may be true, but shouldn't we be taking a more long term view than simply the next 10 years? It's that sort of short-sightedness from everyone who participated in the construction bubble (politicians, bankers, regulators, developers, planners etc) that helped create the mess we're in.

daithicarr

Stekelly wrote: »

Whats the point in writign to them? They all have members on the council, it's not a FF council so it was pretty much an all party decision.

Letters sent, expect to see in the news shortly that they have seen the error of their ways and reversed this idiotic restriction

syklops

daithicarr wrote: »

Letters sent, expect to see in the news shortly that they have seen the error of their ways and reversed this idiotic restriction

Posted mine this morning.

Gunmonkey

daithicarr wrote: »

We should be moving towards higher density citys not smaller. its just crazy. equally i dont know why all the apartments/flats have to be significantly smaller than the average house and often of even poorer quality. Building upwards should save on land costs a significant portion of the building cost (around 50% i beleive) which could easily be translated in to larger and better quality or at the very least sound proofed dwellings.

Simply put, if in the space you would fit 10 good sized flats you can cram in 20 tiny ones, you double your profits through rent (since you would charge the same for the 20 smalls as the 10 larges). Plus if you use half the money to build it shoddily its even more money earned. Hooray, capitalism at work :rolleyes:

This has to be one of the DUMBEST ideas ever passed by anyone in irish politics....and thats saying something. We try to pawn off our country as this beacon of economics and "knowledge economy" and all this bull yet still s**t like this gets passed each day. :mad:

djpbarry

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Simply put, if in the space you would fit 10 good sized flats you can cram in 20 tiny ones, you double your profits through rent (since you would charge the same for the 20 smalls as the 10 larges). Plus if you use half the money to build it shoddily its even more money earned.

Of course, this only works if you have people stupid enough to buy the badly-built shoeboxes.

daithicarr

and planners who alow them to build them

andrewire

4 stories is such a joke. Why not having a business district like La Défense in Paris, where buildings could be 40 or 60 stories high. Dublin is such a boring city compared to most European cities. Its architecture is so lame and uninspiring. Yes, I understand the centuries of misery behind but come on, most "new" buildings are monotonous. Even when you go to the country side, all the houses are plain gray. Why?

daithicarr

i blaim those who make the planning decisions if people are allowed put up crap they will.