Bus-stop cost €200 grand!

Cookie_Monster

How on earth can it possibly cost 200k to upgrade a busstop?!?

Even with the explanation below it's insane money for so little...
100k as a standard cost to upgrade a stop, what do they do with the money?

Link

A NEW bus shelter in north Dublin ended up costing the price of a small house after it was upgraded for disabled users.

The cost of adapting the bus stop outside Dublin City University on Collins Avenue for wheelchair users came to an astonishing €200,000 -- twice the usual budget for adapting bus stops.

Dublin City Council spent €170,000 on the project with Bus Eireann providing the shelter, which is understood to have cost in the region of €30,000.

The costs are believed to have soared because of unforeseen difficulties with the bus stop's location.

The cost of upgrading the bus stop was €100,000. In addition, the local authority had to spend an extra €70,000 on "co-incidental" works -- laying 200 metres of new footpaths in front of DCU, re-planting grassy areas in front of the college and installing new public lights.

Dublin City Council said the €70,000 cost was "exceptional" because of the site's location.

"Ordinarily, a more typical cost for such a bus stop upgrade would be €100,000.

"Conventional bus-stop upgrades (without wheelchair-parking accommodation) typically range from €20,000 to €25,000 (including VAT)."

The remaining €100,000 was spent on re-laying electricity cables, uprooting seven trees and planting replacement trees in a new location, and moving an existing bus stop to make room for dedicated car-parking spaces for wheelchair users. In addition, a new low wall had to be built to hold in earth that was disturbed behind the shelter.

The cost will ultimately be paid by the taxpayer, as the cost will be reimbursed to the Dublin City Council by the Department of Transport.

The bus-stop site was chosen by Bus Eireann as part of its policy to make its entire city fleet wheelchair accessible.

"In order to facilitate the roll-out of further accessible coach services, Bus Eireann was asked by the Department of Transport to nominate existing bus stops that might be converted to fully accessible stops by local authorities.

"One of those stops nominated by Bus Eireann was an existing Dublin Bus stop at DCU so as to facilitate an accessible coach service on Bus Eireann's 109A service covering DCU-Dublin Airport-Navan," said a company spokesman.

Bluetonic

Not justifying the cost but it's a lazy story.

It's a large bus bay suitable for a number of buses. The road in this location had to be excavated along a large stretch to facilitate the work which took a few months and obviously a few more in planning.

Hungerford

From my reading of it, they had to relocate the old bus stop, install several wheelchair accessible parking spaces and carefully relocate a shedload of cabling relating to DCU, which presumably would be crippled if its link to HEAnet was broken.

If it's the stop I am thinking of, it it badly needed upgrading work as the old stop wasn't sufficiently far back from the road for the sort of heavy usage it was getting. Which presumably is why they had to push back the earth and erect a wall to hold it.

KenHy

Walk by it every day, stupid cost and very unnecessary, basicly they have put in a number of disabled parking spaces beside the bus stop. I have yet to see it used. I cant see the point, the only bus that stops there is the 109A to Navan. I'd expect that it's largely a one way route with people going from home to college and back, I dont see why it gets singled out for disabled parking, particularly when it is literally reaching distance to DCU's multi story car park.

RATM

Its called latent demand- build it and they will come. And incidentially the 104 passes by on that route. And if I remember correctly the 104 service connects Cappagh Hospital to Beaumont Hospital before moving onwards to Clontarf (and the DART?). So when you think about it then its not that inconcievable that a wheelchair user might use the spot there to park and ride to one of the hospitals.
IMO it'd be pretty sh1t to be confined to a wheelchair in this city, especially when there are hundreds of no-go places for you. If this makes one shred of difference to wheelchair users then it will have been worth it.

I'd still question the 200,000 price tag, it should've been closer to 125-150k but this really is a non-story. Just yet another piece of lazy journalism from the Sindo.

KenHy

If you have a car and wanted to go to a hospital, why would you park a mile away from it and take the bus? There are plenty of parking spaces in the area already, the money could definitely have been better spent somewhere it was actually needed and would be useful.

Cookie_Monster

follow up piece today.

I don't get what the lined off square with the Wheelchair symbol on the footpath right beside the stop is supposed to be, surely its not a car park space? It doesn't look big enough for a start and would block clear views of the stop.

COUNCILLORS last night said they were "flabbergasted" to discover €170,000 was spent on a new bus stop and shelter, more than the cost of a two-bed apartment in Dublin.

The "crazy" spending by cash-strapped Dublin City Council took place despite massive cuts imposed by the council in recent months.

The bill for the stop outside Dublin City University (DCU), on Collins Avenue, came to €100,000, including the "upgrading" of the stop for wheelchair use. But the cost swelled by a further €70,000 because of "coincidental" works, said officials.

The actual bus shelter itself was provided by Bus Eireann, at a cost of around €30,000, but the taxpayer did not have to pay this sum as it was financed by advertising revenue.

The mammoth spend comes despite stringent cutbacks by the council. Last year it introduced €30m in spending cuts -- a move which included a 5pc cut across many services.

But last night independent Dublin councillor Cieran Perry called for an investigation into the cost of the bus stop.

"I am flabbergasted and stunned at the crazy amount spent on this project," he said.

"There should be an immediate investigation launched into this to ensure the money was legitimately spent."

Dublin city manager John Tierney recently admitted income looked like it would fall further next year and it is understood the council is facing into a potential €25m deficit for 2011.

In a bid to save €1m, plans were drawn up this year for the controversial closure of swimming pools at Sean McDermott Street, Crumlin and Coolock in June.

Difficulties

However, following an intense campaign by locals, €300,000 was found to keep them open until the end of the year -- but their future is uncertain.

Figures released by the council show that €100,000 of the bus stop bill was spent on re-laying electrical cables, uprooting seven trees, planting replacement trees in a new location and moving an existing bus stop to make room for dedicated car-parking spaces for wheelchair users. A low wall had to be built to hold in earth that was disturbed behind the shelter, while the existing bus stop was upgraded with a new surface, pole and sign.

The €70,000 spend included the laying of 200 metres of footpaths in front of DCU, re-planting grassy areas in front of the college and installing public lights.

The costs are believed to have soared because of unforeseen difficulties with the bus stop's location.

The bill will ultimately be paid by the taxpayer, as the cost will be reimbursed to Dublin City Council by the Department of Transport.

Last night, a spokeswoman for Dublin City Council refused to comment on calls for an investigation into the upgrade.

The Department of Transport also refused to comment on the revelations.

Bluetonic

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

follow up piece today.

I don't get what the lined off square with the Wheelchair symbol on the footpath right beside the stop is supposed to be, surely its not a car park space? It doesn't look big enough for a start and would block clear views of the stop.

When passing it I presumed it was a place for wheelchair users to wait. The Bus Eireann double decker uses that stop and that spot would be aligned with the middle door (if they have them??) which would allow wheelchair access. It's boxed off to ensure it's never blocked by anything, either people or someone leaving something there I'd say. Same would apply to Dublin buses?

KenHy

Thats not where the bulk of the work was done, if you look behind that, you can see the indented area that appear to be disabled parking spaces. I'll have a look later to see if they are big enough for parking or not. If they aren't than I'd be completely bamboozled. It would be even more pointless than I already thought it was.

robbie_998

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

follow up piece today.

I don't get what the lined off square with the Wheelchair symbol on the footpath right beside the stop is supposed to be, surely its not a car park space? It doesn't look big enough for a start and would block clear views of the stop.

i'm gonna give it my best guess.

bus eireann bus's have the wheel chair lifts about half way down the bus.... maybe that space is for where the wheel chair users wait so they'll be in the right spot ?

*above may very well be wrong.... anyone ?

JHMEG

Presumably all the work was done on Sundays when everyone's on triple time?

foggy_lad

robbie_998 wrote: »

i'm gonna give it my best guess.

bus eireann bus's have the wheel chair lifts about half way down the bus.... maybe that space is for where the wheel chair users wait so they'll be in the right spot ?

*above may very well be wrong.... anyone ?

that is exactly it! this space should be kept clear for the wheelchair ramp if there is one on the busses that stop here.

Cookie_Monster

but the same is not needed at DB stop for the bus, just cos the ramp is at the front?!?

its a bit needless to say the least

Bluetonic

robbie_998 wrote: »

i'm gonna give it my best guess.

bus eireann bus's have the wheel chair lifts about half way down the bus.... maybe that space is for where the wheel chair users wait so they'll be in the right spot ?

*above may very well be wrong.... anyone ?

See my 9am post!

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but the same is not needed at DB stop for the bus, just cos the ramp is at the front?!?

its a bit needless to say the least

I couldn't agree with you more. It kind of makes you think what the cost will be to upgrade the bus stops across the network to have those AVLC maps and the GPS installed. Going by the job in question, I'd say about €30M at least. While I'm on the subject, I haven't seen any sign of this. When is this going to take place? At the end of the day, a bus stop like the one shown in the picture looks dirt cheap to make and install. Unless those who were performing the upgrade deliberately took their time to keep themselves employed. However, even a cynic like myself would like to think that this was not the case. Ignorance is bliss, I guess!:D

Guy:Incognito

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Even with the explanation below it's insane money for so little...
100k as a standard cost to upgrade a stop, what do they do with the money?
]

100k would hav ebeen the cost without the extras not the cost of a normal bus stop. It's right there in the article:

"Conventional bus-stop upgrades (without wheelchair-parking accommodation) typically range from €20,000 to €25,000 (including VAT)."

I doubt many have disabled parking attached.

AlekSmart

I doubt many have disabled parking attached.

Too true Stekelly,this is the forst one which I`ve come across.

The route 109A originally operated from the Ballymun Road side of DCU before being relocated to the Griffith Avenue side.

Interestingly there was quite a bit of interest being displayed by Dublin Bus passengers as to the ability to link with the BE service at the original stop...but perhaps that was a ste(o)p too far for those who plan such things here.

Just to illustrate the type of vehicle which BE would mainly use on this route......

http://www.irishbuses.com/Route109.html

There are so many other Bus Stops which would have benefitted greatly from this form of modification....beginning with Dublin`s O Connell St......but I suppose we should`nt complain..It`s work for somebody

Del2005

Bluetonic wrote: »

What's the legality of a bus pulling across the solid white cycle lane line to access this stop?

What I can't understand is why someone who has a disability that requires a wheelchair yet they can still drive would park in middle of nowhere when they have free parking in all carparks with their badge

antoinolachtnai

There is a general issue that these upgrades are very expensive, but there is no evidence whatsoever that these upgrades encourage more people to actually use public transport. The only benefit is that the aluminium shelters are a bit more attractive looking than the old brown ones.

The waste is extraordinary. In the example above, and in most Irish installations, the kassel kerbs are installed for a 10m length. This is simply wasteful. Buses in Ireland only load at the front, so you only need a 3m length at most. Even if you had buses with middle doors, you would still only need a 5m length.

These are extraordinary amounts of money to be spending on what are essentially vanity projects.

To put the cost in context, you could extend the Swords Express (or any bus route really) into a late-night or even 24 hour service for around 200,000 euros a year. Alternatively, you could pay taxi or motoring expenses for 50 wheelchair users.

KC61

I don't disagree with that Antoin one bit.

However, bizarrely the converse applies on D'Olier Street where the kassel kerbed area is too short!!

Large numbers of buses serve this street and can pull in behind one another to allow passengers on and off. However, where this happens,due to the short kassel kerbed area if you are on a second bus that has pulled in behind another one, there is a drop to the kerb.

On Nassau Street they got it right by putting the kassel kerbing along the entire bus stop area from the first to the last stops.

antoinolachtnai

Yes for sure, at Dolier St. and Nassau St., because it is a very special place, bus-stop-wise. City centre bus stops, which are about 1 percent of the total by my reckoning are quite a special case.

The problems in the city centre are quite different. I am sorry to say this but in many places it is quite chaotic. It would be worthwhile reengineering these stops, because each one is used by a few thousand people per day. It would be worth investing millions of euros there if it were going to make any difference to efficiency, safety and passenger comfort.

KC61

Surely not a hint of sarcasm there?

Guy:Incognito

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The waste is extraordinary. In the example above, and in most Irish installations, the kassel kerbs are installed for a 10m length. This is simply wasteful. Buses in Ireland only load at the front, so you only need a 3m length at most. Even if you had buses with middle doors, you would still only need a 5m length.
.

We moan when stuff is done with no foresight then money is spent redoing them, then we moan that it's done too well and too much money is being spent. :rolleyes:

antoinolachtnai

No, I am actually quite serious. It would be well worth spending money if it made these stops work better. If 5,000 people and 300 bus services a day use D'Olier St. (as an example) to get a bus, it is surely worth investing to make the stop as comfortable, safe and efficient as possible? It is a once-off capital expenditure, obviously.

I think that it would also be worth upgrading at Nassau St. This would involve taking some airspace back from TCD and putting in a cantilever to allow the pavement to be widened and provide shelters, but I really think it would be worth it because it would improve the lives of thousands of people and improve the experience of public transport. That could help convince a lot of middle class people, including civil servants, who are the main group served by the Nassau St bus stops, to use public transport more. That would produce a fantastic, nearly immediate benefit.

markpb

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

No, I am actually quite serious. It would be well worth spending money if it made these stops work better. If 5,000 people and 300 bus services a day use D'Olier St. (as an example) to get a bus, it is surely worth investing to make the stop as comfortable, safe and efficient as possible? It is a once-off capital expenditure, obviously

I agree (and have said this before). Whether we like it or not, Westmoreland and D'Olier streets have become de-facto bus stations but we want to deny it. Multiple diagonal parallel bus bays could allow 10+ (DB and private) buses to load and unload simultaneously while also allowing the buses to pull fully up to the kerb instead of forcing people to run between two buses to get onto a third which is sitting in traffic.

It would be nicer to use, be more obvious to passengers where to wait and because the bus bays would be spread out, timetable and fare information could be more easily provided for each route/operator. Crucially, it would allow slow loading or long-standing buses like Aircoach to take as much time as they like without blocking all the other buses.

paddyland

One of the most basic and fundamental issues regarding bus stops, bus lanes, and other bus infrastructure in Dublin, is that for the most part, it is designed by people who never sat behind the wheel of a bus in their life.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

No, I am actually quite serious. It would be well worth spending money if it made these stops work better. If 5,000 people and 300 bus services a day use D'Olier St. (as an example) to get a bus, it is surely worth investing to make the stop as comfortable, safe and efficient as possible? It is a once-off capital expenditure, obviously.

I think that it would also be worth upgrading at Nassau St. This would involve taking some airspace back from TCD and putting in a cantilever to allow the pavement to be widened and provide shelters, but I really think it would be worth it because it would improve the lives of thousands of people and improve the experience of public transport. That could help convince a lot of middle class people, including civil servants, who are the main group served by the Nassau St bus stops, to use public transport more. That would produce a fantastic, nearly immediate benefit.

Sorry for doubting you!!!

I do think that the city centre is the exception to the rule - there are some other busy stops that might require similar treatment, but by and large the rest could indeed get away with a small length of kassel kerbing.

AlekSmart

I think that it would also be worth upgrading at Nassau St. This would involve taking some airspace back from TCD and putting in a cantilever to allow the pavement to be widened and provide shelters, but I really think it would be worth it because it would improve the lives of thousands of people and improve the experience of public transport. That could help convince a lot of middle class people, including civil servants, who are the main group served by the Nassau St bus stops, to use public transport more. That would produce a fantastic, nearly immediate benefit.

Absolutely Spot-On Antoin,but without spending a penny there could be an immediate improvement on Nassau St merely by abolishing the Pay and Display on-street car parking along the off-side of the street.

Here we have approx 20 car spaces which impinge greatly upon the ability of general traffic to interact safely with Public Transport.

Some time back there was a quite sensible proposal floated locally and brought as far as Traffic Committee meeting whereby the two Dublin Bus route groupings would be divided with the Ballsbridge/Rock Road routes remaining on Nassau St whilst the Donnybrook/Stillorgan routes would utilise 3 new stops situated on Kildare St between the Alliance Francaise and the College of Physicians.
(The Poles are actually still standing)

This would have allowed buses a far more fluid routing through Nassau St with approx 40% reduction in vehicle movements to and from the kerb.
Routes 10,11,14,15,46A and 145 would have been able to position to the extreme right on Nassau St and continue unimpeded to their stops along Kildare St.

However the proposal simply upped and died with no further being hear on the topic.

It consistently baffles me as to why my suddenly Safety Obsessed employer continues to attempt to pour several quarts into a half-pint pot along this street and others in the City Centre whilst ignoring alternative suggestions from the cab....:rolleyes:

Sometimes the largest gains come from the simplest actions !!!

KC61

AlekSmart wrote: »

Sometimes the largest gains come from the simplest actions !!!

Too true Alek!

Heart

Speaking of bizarre kessel kerbing...

On the Howth Road inbound, there is a stop which was fitted with kessel kerbing. Then some months later one of the houses got a driveway put in and now a dished kerb exists in the middle of the kessel kerbing at the bus stop!

So you've got about 3 pieces of kerbing, a dished path, and another 4 pieces of kessel kerbing!!!

H

BenShermin

As far as I can remember over the last year using low floor buses in Brussels, London, Barcelona, Santander and Berlin I don't recall seeing any special kerbed bus stops in any of these cities. In London I've seen wheelchair passengers gain access to the bus both by themselves and with the help of fellow commuters without needing one of these special kerbs.

Can anybody enlighten me as to why we actually need these stops to meet low floor buses with kneeling ramps??

Cookie_Monster

BenShermin wrote: »

Can anybody enlighten me as to why we actually need these stops to meet low floor buses with kneeling ramps??

I've yet to find a reason for them either. Just another waste of money.
Of course the answer will be some made up H&S crap, as it usually is.

Does Cork or Galway or Limerick need have them for the BE local services?

antoinolachtnai

They elevate the pavement slightly and have some safety features. Most importantly they protect both the tyre of the bus and the pavement from damage as the bus moves as close as possible to the kerb.

Son of Stupido

Heads need to roll for this. It is truely unbelievable.

Where was the project management and cost control?

:mad::mad::mad::mad: