When do we stand up against the corruption/lies and undemocratic Ireland?

ninebeanrows

We have for the last 2 years limped towards a pathetic future. A government struggling to patch over the horrible mistake of its past, a nation too proud to protray it's distaste.

The question arises, when do we take a stand?

Vorsprung

Loads of people have asked this - here and on the politics forum.

Loads of people are doing the typical Irish thing of moaning but don't take the time to write to TDs, protest etc. Then when the election comes round, they see the local FF TF at a funeral and go "ah sure he's a nice man I'll give him a vote".

Everyone's outraged, the question is what have you done?

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Leave it till tomorrow, even the lord rested on the sabbath.
Cos he was hungover as f*ck

Mister men

Nothing will ever be done againest our government. I went to two seperate anti government protests couple of months back and there was'nt even 2000 people at either protest out of a population of 4.5 million. What really get's to me is where was the 450,000 unemployed,the people losing their homes,the people losing there vital services. We as a nation are lazy beyond belief. The Greeks are right unfortunatly we just take it up the ass.

PaddyBomb

Effort of standing up.

Sparticle

Vote them out in the next election if you're not happy with them. Running around breaking things and shouting never fixes anything. If people really want to help they can write letters to TDs and participate in rational discussion.

omahaid

Enzo Tinkling Linebacker wrote: »

Leave it till tomorrow, even the lord rested on the sabbath.
Cos he was hungover as f*ck

Me and the lord have something in common

galwayrush

Apparently it's all the negative media's fault....................:pac::pac::pac:

Drumpot

Depends on your definition of "Standing up to them" means.

There is only one people to blame for the collapse of our country. The electorate. .

And you know what, voting out FF does'nt solve the problem. I think politics in general in Ireland sucks. Some people excuse this by saying its pretty much the same everywhere else. Ah yes, the old, "well if it goes on in other countries, we cant expect any better" arguement.

Until we start looking for a better politician and a better political structure, we will never see true change . .

Voting in Labour or FG because you hate FF and dont trust them is just asking for trouble. If I had three people on front of me and had to decide which one would be taking care of my child while I was away, I wouldnt simply pick the one who I least dislike (or the one I like the look of) . I would do more research and make sure i get the safest, best candidate for that role. . Ireland liked the look of Bertie (of course nobody on boards.ie voted FF ) and look at what happened . .Perhaps if the electorate voted for politicians the same way they made decisions on things that were important to them we would have a better country . .

Sparticle

Drumpot wrote: »

Depends on your definition of "Standing up to them" means.

There is only one people to blame for the collapse of our country. The electorate. .

And you know what, voting out FF does'nt solve the problem. I think politics in general in Ireland sucks. Some people excuse this by saying its pretty much the same everywhere else. Ah yes, the old, "well if it goes on in other countries, we cant expect any better" arguement.

Until we start looking for a better politician and a better political structure, we will never see change . .

I agree, we need politicians who aren't petty point scoring knobheads.
In other words we need politicians who aren't politicians.

rovert

Weathercheck wrote: »

We have for the last 2 years limped towards a pathetic future. A government struggling to patch over the horrible mistake of its past, a nation too proud to protray it's distaste.

The question arises, when do we take a stand?

It is Sunday and overcast go back to bed.

Abrasax

I'm in, OP.

What's the plan?

Drumpot

Sparticle wrote: »

I agree, we need politicians who aren't petty point scoring knobheads.
In other words we need politicians who aren't politicians.

Its funny cause when I make "outside the box" suggestions to those in politics or those who are passionate about politics they look at me as though I have just lost my marbles.

"Politicians that make the right decision for the country at the expense of their popularity, are you mad!".

"Rival Parties agreeing with projects/proposals that would benefit the country, why would they do that"

"Long term, National strategies that the current government may not get the credit for, are you mad!"

"Proper accountability in the entire public service and for all in politics, sure they would never go for that"

I could go on but I think you get the jist. . Its all about a popularity contest and who are the people who have to be convinced ? Yes, you've guessed it, its us, the stupid electorate that lap up anything populist or rhetoric that sounds nice. .

That movie "idiocracy" is not that far from the truth . .

Labour/FG/Any other party - "FF have led this country to the brink of destruction" . .

or "FF have been in bed with the developers and bankers too long" etc

Electorate: "Wow, thats exactly what I think, I dont need to know anything else, I would feel confident voting for them" .

Wicklowrider

I heard recently that one of the bankers at the centre of he economic collapse was seated in a local restaurant with a party of friends. The owner of the restaurant approached him and informed him that the regular customers objected to his company. The regulars said that if the banker didn't leave they would - and they wouldn't be back. Banker and friends had to leave. Now that had to get to him, ordinary joes dictating when and where he could socialise. I thought it was a great protest, dignified and productive without causing damage to property or injury to anyone.

It makes you think, in the country that gave the world the word boycott, isn't there more ways we could employ this method of objection to what these people have done? All of them, politicians, bankers and developers have to shop, go for meals or a drink, get their cars maintained etc - what if joe ordinary just refused to serve them in any shape or form?

Sparticle

Drumpot wrote: »

Its funny cause when I make "outside the box" suggestions to those in politics or those who are passionate about politics they look at me as though I have just lost my marbles.

"Politicians that make the right decision for the country at the expense of their popularity, are you mad!".

"Rival Parties agreeing with projects/proposals that would benefit the country, why would they do that"

"Long term, National strategies that the current government may not get the credit for, are you mad!"

"Proper accountability in the entire public service and for all in politics, sure they would never go for that"

I could go on but I think you get the jist. .

This would all be solved in the form of a benign dictatorship headed by a very wise koala bear. He would make the hard unpopular decisions and no one could hate him because he is a koala.

sligopark

Drumpot wrote: »

There is only one people to blame for the collapse of our country. The electorate. .

And you know what, voting out FF does'nt solve the problem. I think politics in general in Ireland sucks. Some people excuse this by saying its pretty much the same everywhere else. Ah yes, the old, "well if it goes on in other countries, we cant expect any better" arguement.

Until we start looking for a better politician and a better political structure, we will never see true change . .

Voting in Labour or FG because you hate FF and dont trust them is just asking for trouble. If I had three people on front of me and had to decide which one would be taking care of my child while I was away, I wouldnt simply pick the one who I least dislike (or the one I like the look of) . I would do more research and make sure i get the safest, best candidate for that role. . Ireland liked the look of Bertie (of course nobody on boards.ie voted FF ) and look at what happened . .Perhaps if the electorate voted for politicians the same way they made decisions on things that were important to them we would have a better country . .

Agree for the most part but can't blame the electorate really. Given that if you are at least of average intelligence then there is at least half the country that much stupider than you and in many cases alot more stupid, so they can in some way be excused.

The other half would be smarter. And amongst them there is a proportional number who realise the % of sheep and manipulate the system past those who would have it for the betterment of society, and use it instead toward their select enrichment.

It is not so much the political parties and trite workers unions that are to blame (FF Gombeens, FG Wanna be gombeens, Greens pseudo religious do gooder wanna bes, Labour liberal do gooder wanna bes without a plan, SinnFein post ceasefire wanna be guerillas),

it is those with enough intelligence to realise they are being manipulated and robbed of their future wealth and sovereign independence for whom the choice is laid bare.

Rebellion, revolution and re-instatement of democracy.

The question arises then - will be it be armed and then in some levels reliant upon illegal tie in and so have the potential for corruption (as happened with the IRA) or will it come from those good people alienated, robbed and pushed to the side by todays society and described as intolerant fanatics and who were aptly represented by Declan Ganley

until of course his vote was robbed from underneath them in the second re-run of the Lisbon Treaty which they were all set to reject a second time and usher in new politics into this country

Biggins

According to a lot:

If I raise my voice I'm a "moaner",
If I say nothing I'm "lazy",
If I take to the street I must be a "marxist radical ...or something",
If I write to a TD, I must be "a fool for wasting time!"
If I join an alternative organisation "Well they're all a waste to time too!"

Well you know what - those that are saying the above - stuff you!
I won't go quietly into the night and just become a placid sheep to be herded.
Which is why I'm presently working/constructing www.Unitedpeople.ie

...I'm outa here! I got stuff to do and TD's to annoy!

mikemac

Are you going to be a candidate in the next elections Biggins?

Want to see just some of Fianna Fail failures listed?
Prepare to be shocked - click here.

This is what many parties do, look at how useless the other crowd are
But you don't have policies.?
Negative politics turns people off.
And the three stories on the main page aren't realy Irish issues.

If you are running then fair play, I wish you well and you are doing what thousands of others won't do as we sit back and do nothing
Doubt I'd vote for you but sure good luck with it

Biggins

feelingstressed wrote: »

Are you going to be a candidate in the next elections Biggins?

I hope to be.
As for the site, its in re-construction.
Policy section currently been drawn up. This will NOT be rushed as like many out there.
Its too easy to go the quick reaction route and there will be a lot less one minute sound-bites if I can help it!
ALL opinions as to how the site should be done are gratefully received.

(Front section at present is for all topics which Irish people might be interested in, but they don't have to be confined in topic just to within our borders.)

Einhard

Weathercheck wrote: »

We have for the last 2 years limped towards a pathetic future. A government struggling to patch over the horrible mistake of its past, a nation too proud to protray it's distaste.

The question arises, when do we take a stand?

We get the chance every 5 years or so. If we don't grasp it, we can't blame anyone but ourselves.

And bad governance/corruption doesn't equal undemocratic.

Einhard

Sparticle wrote: »

This would all be solved in the form of a benign dictatorship headed by a very wise koala bear. He would make the hard unpopular decisions and no one could hate him because he is a koala.

You've obviously never encountered a wild koala before.

http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.libbyhobday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/dropbear.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.libbyhobday.com/2008/02/22/beware-of-the-australian-drop-bears/&h=272&w=300&sz=11&tbnid=GW1eYZ2MCtnRWM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddrop%2Bbears&hl=en&usg=__deWWW4atYwYCqCNonLqvyOsBmpM=&sa=X&ei=hCdMTPCJDIWi0gSqydmECw&ved=0CCkQ9QEwBQ

:eek:

Donkey Oaty

Biggins wrote: »

IIts too easy to go the quick reaction route and there will be a lot less one minute sound-bites if I can help it!

A sound bit is usually about five seconds or thereabouts. You'd be lucky to get a minute!

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

...And bad governance/corruption doesn't equal undemocratic.

True, the rare exception being the likes of Mugabe/Zimbabwe.

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

A sound bit is usually about five seconds or thereabouts. You'd be lucky to get a minute!

Time to change that too. Time to talk to the people - not down to them in short tabloid-burst bites!

Donkey Oaty

Biggins wrote: »

Time to talk to the people - not down to them!

That is a soundbite - well done!

Biggins

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

That is a soundbite - well done!

:pac: Its a summary.

-Trek-

Einhard wrote: »

We get the chance every 5 years or so. If we don't grasp it, we can't blame anyone but ourselves.

Ya, we can elect a band of new p***ks that will have new ways of screwing us over. I really don't care any more who runs the show, its never going to change.

Biggins

Trekmad wrote: »

Ya, we can elect a band of new p***ks that will have new ways of screwing us over. I really don't care any more who runs the show, its never going to change.

...And thats why nothing changes! That attitude exactly.
One that is all too easy to come by given the actions of the current lot but an attitude that is also too quickly applied (already waiting for them) to those wanting to come in the future and make much needed change.

As regards those coming in the future, it used to be that a person was innocent till found guilty, a person was free from corruption till they were found to be involved with it.

Sadly some public has already decided that anyone that steps into public life in future and/or trying to make change in an area they feel they could approach - they must be already corrupt and evil to say the least!

...And with that attitude, people wonder why nothing changes?

bonerm

Wicklowrider wrote: »

I heard recently that one of the bankers at the centre of he economic collapse was seated in a local restaurant with a party of friends. The owner of the restaurant approached him and informed him that the regular customers objected to his company. The regulars said that if the banker didn't leave they would - and they wouldn't be back. Banker and friends had to leave. Now that had to get to him, ordinary joes dictating when and where he could socialise. I thought it was a great protest, dignified and productive without causing damage to property or injury to anyone.

Names? Sources? Sounds like an urban myth to me.

For one thing I doubt these fat cats frequent any restaurant that has "ordinary joes" inside - least not doing anything other than serving the food & washing the dishes. Different world. If it is true however it's probably just his former peers throwing him "out of the club". Not real people.

As to the OPs issue? Hate the game not the player. There's a phalanx of fat disgusting pigs behind whoever your issue is with just dying to stick their snouts in the troff.

-Trek-

Biggins wrote: »

Sadly some public has already decided that anyone that steps into public life in future and/or trying to make change in an area they feel they could approach - they must be already corrupt and evil to say the least!

...And with that attitude, people wonder why nothing changes?

I apologise for my attitude but sadly allot of the time its true and I hope that one day a government will come along that will restore my faith.

My biggest gripe is that we cant get a government that will grab say the health service* by the balls and say there has to be changes no if, and or buts.

*I am not targeting the health department specifically but just using it as one example.

Biggins

Trekmad wrote: »

I apologise for my attitude but sadly allot of the time its true and I hope that one day a government will come along that will restore my faith.

My biggest gripe is that we cant get a government that will grab say the health service* by the balls and say there has to be changes no if, and or buts.

*I am not targeting the health department specifically but just using it as one example.

Firstly, please don't feel I'm just having a go at you. I'm not.
I can try and address what you have raised however.

The health service presently has many faults.
(I too mention the HSE ONLY because its a clear cut example - not selecting it because it might/might not be a main culprit)

At the top of it is at least some serious heads I'm assuming wanting genuine change. In the middle is the committees/quangos, individual boards of directors, upper management, etc, issuing daily/weekly/monthly edicts to the bottom level: the basic medical staff and clerical workers.

Between the top that says "Right we need cuts in A, B and C etc..." to what eventually gets to the bottom level of the service as a message, there is a bureaucratic nightmare of epic proportions and a massive communication problem to boot.

Somewhere in the translation of what should and should not be streamlined, there is the greasing of many a wheel by a middle level which doesn't want to see cuts in its own section.
Its an understandable wish that nothing be cut from within ones department to be fair but in a lot of cases, because of inaction in cutting out the bad, the good is having to more so be cut instead elsewhere and the staff and public is thus paying a heavier price.

Because many from a second level upwards are putting up their own roadblocks and/or fighting for what they see as their own department cause, they are not helping to a great extent.
Rather than work with those that are trying to be fair and make changes that can be evenly spread out, many are choosing to completely stifle movement at all.
...And that helps no one.

The above is just one example of many situations within any one section of government and its (too) many offshoot sections.
Long story short: the present system is a mess and needs sorting.

-Trek-

Biggins wrote: »

Firstly, please don't feel I'm just having a go at you. I'm not.
I can try and address what you have raised however.

The health service presently has many faults.
(I too mention the HSE ONLY because its a clear cut example - not selecting it because it might/might not be a main culprit)

At the top of it is at least some serious heads I'm assuming wanting genuine change. In the middle is the committees/quangos, individual boards of directors, upper management, etc, issuing daily/weekly/monthly edicts to the bottom level: the basic medical staff and clerical workers.

Between the top that says "Right we need cuts in A, B and C etc..." to what eventually gets to the bottom level of the service as a message, there is a bureaucratic nightmare of epic proportions and a massive communication problem to boot.

Somewhere in the translation of what should and should not be streamlined, there is the greasing of many a wheel by a middle level which doesn't want to see cuts in its own section.
Its an understandable wish that nothing be cut from within ones department to be fair but in a lot of cases, because of inaction in cutting out the bad, the good is having to more so be cut instead elsewhere and the staff and public is thus paying a heavier price.

Because many from a second level upwards are putting up their own roadblocks and/or fighting for what they see as their own department cause, they are not helping to a great extent.
Rather than work with those that are trying to be fair and make changes that can be evenly spread out, many are choosing to completely stifle movement at all.
...And that helps no one.

The above is just one example of many situations within any one section of government and its (too) many offshoot sections.
Long story short: the present system is a mess and needs sorting.

Totally agree, which is why I want to see government that will tell these people that if you don't like it then seek work elsewhere.