irish banks screwing us

dean21

:mad:
Can anybody answer me this?
Why are Irish people saving their money in Irish banks at low rate that in turn use that money to screw Irish people?
Look what they have done with mortgage rates last week
is it not time that Irish people took their money from those banks, put it in the credit union or post office and force those bank to fall or go to Europe for money at higher costs.
We have the power to teach those banks a lesson if we would just unite as one force

P. Breathnach

Are you familiar with the expression "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

Scarab80

dean21 wrote: »

:mad:
Can anybody answer me this?
Why are Irish people saving their money in Irish banks at low rate that in turn use that money to screw Irish people?
Look what they have done with mortgage rates last week
is it not time that Irish people took their money from those banks, put it in the credit union or post office and force those bank to fall or go to Europe for money at higher costs.
We have the power to teach those banks a lesson if we would just unite as one force

You do realise that your money is not in the bank, it is tied up in developer loans and peoples mortgages. And not just any long term savings accounts you have with your bank, even your current account has been loaned out.

Because depositers are guaranteed by the state, if all irish depositers took their money from the banks the state would have to cover these withdrawals with state investment. You are probably looking at a figure of 2 or 3 hundred billion.

ei.sdraob

Unfortunately the Credit Unions bank with the same banks

Put your money abroad into any of the larger and more stable EU banks, The EU should really work harder to make it easier for anyone from an EU state to bank with a bank in another, also an FDIC style EU wide insurance scheme would be useful

As for cutting nose to spite face comment above
32 billion left Irish deposits in first 6 months of 2009 alone
Vote with your wallet since you cant vote at the booth for another few years

I would not gamble and trust my money with the current bunch of banks, and FF actions dont inspire much confidence
Their Guarantee is fud designed to inspire confidence in suckers, since if the **** came to shove i would be interested to see how an insolvent state would try to pay out these deposits it guaranteed.

changes

I'm with the EBS and they have raised rates 1.2% in 3 months.

At least one good thing came out of this whole mess, people need no longer look in awe, admiration or deference at these great money making bankers. They've proven themselves to be incompetent and clueless.

Head The Wall

dean21 wrote: »

:mad:
Can anybody answer me this?
Why are Irish people saving their money in Irish banks at low rate that in turn use that money to screw Irish people?
Look what they have done with mortgage rates last week
is it not time that Irish people took their money from those banks, put it in the credit union or post office and force those bank to fall or go to Europe for money at higher costs.
We have the power to teach those banks a lesson if we would just unite as one force

Banks are not screwing me, I don't owe them anything and they actually provide me with free banking!!

changes wrote: »

I'm with the EBS and they have raised rates 1.2% in 3 months.

It's called a Variable Rate Mortgage, were you not aware of what that was when you took it out and the implications of it going up and down.

funnyname

are banks increasing the savings rate as they put up the rate on mortgages?

changes

Head The Wall wrote: »

It's called a Variable Rate Mortgage, were you not aware of what that was when you took it out and the implications of it going up and down.

Thanks Head the Wall for explaining how it works i wasn't aware of that when i signed up for all that money!

Its hard to argue with that point of view, they can raise them all they like legally but they should try and ease it on after taking a bail out from us and not landing another 0.6% barely a wet week after the first.

Head The Wall

Saving rates have been pretty good as the Banks needed all the hard cash they could get but I reckon they will probably start to drop it as they start to get capitalised and get their books in better order.

We may have to go back to property to get a better return on our savings soon - just kidding




If banks don't get money in someway well then the taxpayers will just end up having to recapitalise them more. Personally I think people that don't have mortgages shouldn't be on the hook for the banks mistakes, I know we are all contributing through our taxes etc but it's obviously still not enough. Customers (mortgage and other forms of credit holders) of the banks are being hit through interest rate hikes to make up the shortfall and at the moment variable rate holders are subsidising tracker holders as well.

changes

And did you see that FG are calling for the big 2 banks to not increase their rates

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0724/banks.html

Colonel Sanders

At a recent presentation to the Society of Actuaries in Ireland it was claimed that the economic lending rate for mortgages was 4.28% (page 19 here) and this is before the effect of subsidising highly unprofitable trackers is taken into consideration

You also have a case in the UK where the average SVR is over 4.5% (and their base rate is 50bps lower than the ECB).

The sad reality is that if banks carry on loss making operations the tax payer exposure to further losses will be increased.

johnnyskeleton

changes wrote: »

Its hard to argue with that point of view, they can raise them all they like legally but they should try and ease it on after taking a bail out from us and not landing another 0.6% barely a wet week after the first.

The big problem, and I'm amazed that there has been so little publicity on this point, is that it is simply not profitable for a bank to write new mortgages at current mortgage interest rates.

The supply of money at 1% from the ECB is set to dry up, and because savers are shopping around for the best rate, there are a lot less people keeping money in current accounts and in low interest accounts.

Therefore, the banks are still relying on money from interbank loans etc to pay for mortgages. The current rates for these loans is in the region of 4-5%.

Banks also incur a lot of administration charges and other charges when they give out a new loan.

Bottom line is that unless variable rates rise to 6-7% or higher, there is no profit in new mortgages and thus no new mortgages are made. PTSB are in the market for new mortgages, which is why they have had to increase their rates.

The argument that because we bailed out the banks they shouldn't increase interest rates is an attractive argument for people with mortgages, but unfortunately they are not the only ones who are paying taxes to pay for the bailouts. Another group of people are those wanting to buy, but who cannot get a mortgage, and those who wish to sell, but cannot find a buyer who can get a mortgage. Thus there are two options, we either let the market stall where it is so that those with existing mortgages are not badly treated, or we accept that rates must increase as one of the only ways that the property market will start to move again.

changes

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The big problem, and I'm amazed that there has been so little publicity on this point, is that it is simply not profitable for a bank to write new mortgages at current mortgage interest rates.

The supply of money at 1% from the ECB is set to dry up, and because savers are shopping around for the best rate, there are a lot less people keeping money in current accounts and in low interest accounts.

Therefore, the banks are still relying on money from interbank loans etc to pay for mortgages. The current rates for these loans is in the region of 4-5%.

Banks also incur a lot of administration charges and other charges when they give out a new loan.

Bottom line is that unless variable rates rise to 6-7% or higher, there is no profit in new mortgages and thus no new mortgages are made. PTSB are in the market for new mortgages, which is why they have had to increase their rates.

The argument that because we bailed out the banks they shouldn't increase interest rates is an attractive argument for people with mortgages, but unfortunately they are not the only ones who are paying taxes to pay for the bailouts. Another group of people are those wanting to buy, but who cannot get a mortgage, and those who wish to sell, but cannot find a buyer who can get a mortgage. Thus there are two options, we either let the market stall where it is so that those with existing mortgages are not badly treated, or we accept that rates must increase as one of the only ways that the property market will start to move again.

Good point and well made, i think alot of people are just venting and are worried. I completely understand that banks are going to up their rates.

When i signed up for my mortgage with the EBS in early 07 the rate was 5.65% or 5.88% (can't rem which), today its much lower, even with the 1.2% increase. But the money goin into my bank account each week is lower that it was in 07. This can be directly related to the carry on of the banks and the need of the government to gather money to pay for the fallout... this is where my anger lies.

7% is a worry though.

Welease

changes wrote: »

Good point and well made, i think alot of people are just venting and are worried. I completely understand that banks are going to up their rates.

When i signed up for my mortgage with the EBS in early 07 the rate was 5.65% or 5.88% (can't rem which), today its much lower, even with the 1.2% increase. But the money goin into my bank account each week is lower that it was in 07. This can be directly related to the carry on of the banks and the need of the government to gather money to pay for the fallout... this is where my anger lies.

7% is a worry though.

Was the a second mortgage or something?

I picked up a mortgage from AIB in Nov 2007, and we are only paying .6% tracker above ECB.. so 1.6% in total at present.

murphaph

dean21 wrote: »

:mad:
Can anybody answer me this?
Why are Irish people saving their money in Irish banks at low rate that in turn use that money to screw Irish people?
Look what they have done with mortgage rates last week
is it not time that Irish people took their money from those banks, put it in the credit union or post office and force those bank to fall or go to Europe for money at higher costs.
We have the power to teach those banks a lesson if we would just unite as one force

Can you not act independently and just move your money to the most attractive location yourself? Why do you need to act "collectively"?

ei.sdraob

changes wrote: »

And did you see that FG are calling for the big 2 banks to not increase their rates

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0724/banks.html

Its nothing more that dickwaving

The banks are still private (despite us paying more than enough for them to be nationalised by now) and can ignore any political pressure if they want whether from current government or opposition

Welease wrote: »

Was the a second mortgage or something?

I picked up a mortgage from AIB in Nov 2007, and we are only paying .6% tracker above ECB.. so 1.6% in total at present.

could have been a subprime loan?

changes

No it wasn't a sub prime, i applied for in in late 06 approved in early 07. It was the home builders mortgage from EBS. I had a look to see if i still had the letter. I rem it was 5.something. 5.88 or 5.65 or 5.35 possibly.

Any other first time buyers here remember taking out mortgage around that time.

Cookie_Monster

If you are unhappy with the banks move your money elsewhere.

I have no issue with my bank, provide me with plenty of service and a loan at what I think is a reasonable rate. I've changed banks 5 times over the last 8-10 years to get what I want. Its like any other industry, shop around.

or if you want higher returns invest somewhere

saol alainn

changes wrote: »

No it wasn't a sub prime, i applied for in in late 06 approved in early 07. It was the home builders mortgage from EBS. I had a look to see if i still had the letter. I rem it was 5.something. 5.88 or 5.65 or 5.35 possibly.

Any other first time buyers here remember taking out mortgage around that time.

We took our mortgage out around April/May '07, with EBS as well, at 4.75%. It wasn't the home builders package, though, just the ordinary repayment mortgage.

The_Thing

Put your money abroad into any of the larger and more stable EU banks...

How would the ordinary man in the street go about doing that? Any info \ links?

Thanks.

ei.sdraob

The_Thing wrote: »

How would the ordinary man in the street go about doing that? Any info \ links?

Thanks.

Well if you don't feel like going to another country with all documents and opening an account

There are safer banks here in Ireland like Rabo for example, Hell even Ulster Bank being part of RBS is probably safer than the Irish lot (and less fees). Tho in hopefully unlikely event of Ireland dropping/being kicked out of euro there might be a chance the the money in these might be changed over (quoting a Rabo rep here)

Some let you open by sending all required documents over mail, like HSBC > http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/
the above accounts are handy if you travel alot or work from country to country, and HSBC came out as one of the least scratched banks in the last 2-3 years.

You of course will have to pay DIRT on any interests earned (EU banks would declare it for you as part of the savings directive anyways)

go thru this list and see which ones offer accounts to nonresidents

thebman

The_Thing wrote: »

How would the ordinary man in the street go about doing that? Any info \ links?

Thanks.

Well on Rabo's site they are bragging that they have a triple A rating.

dean21

murphaph wrote: »

Can you not act independently and just move your money to the most attractive location yourself? Why do you need to act "collectively"?

I have done that
And they are not screwing me as i am on the gold dust tracker ecb +.5% so i am screwing them
But it make my blood boil when they keep screwing people

Head The Wall

dean21 wrote: »

I have done that
And they are not screwing me as i am on the gold dust tracker ecb +.5% so i am screwing them
But it make my blood boil when they keep screwing people

How much will you have paid them in interest over the life of the mortgage though, less than most maybe but probably still 100-200K or more

dean21

Head The Wall wrote: »

How much will you have paid them in interest over the life of the mortgage though, less than most maybe but probably still 100-200K or more

Dont know but in your lifetime very few people get a chance to screw the banks but thank god those on trackers are at the moment

Head The Wall

I have been saving all these years and will be getting around a 40% mortgage. Prices for land are also ridiculously cheap at the moment and so are building costs. So who is going to be better off. Me or you?

OMD

Head The Wall wrote: »

I have been saving all these years and will be getting around a 40% mortgage. Prices for land are also ridiculously cheap at the moment and so are building costs. So who is going to be better off. Me or you?

Well, on the mortgage, almost certainly dean21. He is paying 1.5% interest rate. You can expect to pay 4.5% or 3 times as much.
Per €100,000 borrowed he will pay €400 a month with a 25 year mortgage. You will have to pay €550 per month. Indeed if he chose to pay off €550 a month (ie the same as you) he would have his mortgage paid off 9 years before you.

Obviously you may save money on the cost of the property but that is a different issue.

danbohan

Head The Wall wrote: »

I have been saving all these years and will be getting around a 40% mortgage. Prices for land are also ridiculously cheap at the moment and so are building costs. So who is going to be better off. Me or you?

depends on your defination of ridiculously cheap ? labour costs are cheaper but materials eg wood are more expensive than in boom , why dont you save for few more years and dont bother with a mortgage at all then you will really be in a postion to gloat at the poor suckers paying all that intrest any you will be even happier!

Head The Wall

OMD wrote: »

Well, on the mortgage, almost certainly dean21. He is paying 1.5% interest rate. You can expect to pay 4.5% or 3 times as much.
Per €100,000 borrowed he will pay €400 a month with a 25 year mortgage. You will have to pay €550 per month. Indeed if he chose to pay off €550 a month (ie the same as you) he would have his mortgage paid off 9 years before you.

Obviously you may save money on the cost of the property but that is a different issue.

I have been receiving interest while saving my money all these years and would be expecting to get a mortgage for no more than 80K. I fail to see how anyone who currently has a mortgage that was got in an overpriced market would be better off. My mortgage will be smaller and paid of in less time, going on the calculators I am looking at as a rough guide

He will also more than likely have spent a lot more on a property than I will be doing and the quality, design and the build won't be up to a par as to what I will be getting. Making a presumption here but a big majority of people bought houses/condos in estates.

Even one off houses in the country that are 4-5000 Sq Feet still have the same dreary layout of the majority of Irish houses.

OMD

Head The Wall wrote: »

I have been receiving interest while saving my money all these years and would be expecting to get a mortgage for no more than 80K. I fail to see how anyone who currently has a mortgage that was got in an overpriced market would be better off. My mortgage will be smaller and paid of in less time, going on the calculators I am looking at as a rough guide

He will also more than likely have spent a lot more on a property than I will be doing and the quality, design and the build won't be up to a par as to what I will be getting. Making a presumption here but a big majority of people bought houses/condos in estates.

Even one off houses in the country that are 4-5000 Sq Feet still have the same dreary layout of the majority of Irish houses.

But that is all guess work. You have no idea when dean21 bought his property, for how much, with what LTV ratio or over what period. Also your savings "all these years" would really only be the difference between your rent and his mortgage. Of course you don't know what his mortgage is so you cannot say how much the savings are.

From my own point of view, if I had rented my current house rather than buy it, I would, so far, have paid out much more in rent than mortgage.

Head The Wall

danbohan wrote: »

depends on your defination of ridiculously cheap ? labour costs are cheaper but materials eg wood are more expensive than in boom , why dont you save for few more years and dont bother with a mortgage at all then you will really be in a postion to gloat at the poor suckers paying all that intrest any you will be even happier!

I've enough time spent renting now and saving ability is reducing so it's time to take the plunge. It is a good time to have money


There's plenty of sites around with PP running out and it will be difficult to receive it again with the new planning laws. Will be approaching these owners with around 6 months of pp left. Buy it cheap with PP, Log cabin build, (no blocklayers) etc. Not going OTT with it

Head The Wall

OMD wrote: »

But that is all guess work. You have no idea when dean21 bought his property, for how much, with what LTV ratio or over what period. Also your savings "all these years" would really only be the difference between your rent and his mortgage. Of course you don't know what his mortgage is so you cannot say how much the savings are.

From my own point of view, if I had rented my current house rather than buy it, I would, so far, have paid out much more in rent than mortgage.

He has a tracker mortgage so it's recent enough and trackers weren't always this low a rate and they won't always stay low.

In my situation I'm better off doing it now than if I had a few years ago, the less you have to borrow the better off you are. There's no discounting that

danbohan

Head The Wall wrote: »

I have been receiving interest while saving my money all these years and would be expecting to get a mortgage for no more than 80K. I fail to see how anyone who currently has a mortgage that was got in an overpriced market would be better off. My mortgage will be smaller and paid of in less time, going on the calculators I am looking at as a rough guide

He will also more than likely have spent a lot more on a property than I will be doing and the quality, design and the build won't be up to a par as to what I will be getting. Making a presumption here but a big majority of people bought houses/condos in estates.

Even one off houses in the country that are 4-5000 Sq Feet still have the same dreary layout of the majority of Irish houses.

your going build a architect desighed home in the country of 5000 sq ft buy a site and have change out of 200k , yea sure you are even in thease ressionary times .

ei.sdraob

Head The Wall wrote: »

I have been receiving interest while saving my money all these years and would be expecting to get a mortgage for no more than 80K. I fail to see how anyone who currently has a mortgage that was got in an overpriced market would be better off. My mortgage will be smaller and paid of in less time, going on the calculators I am looking at as a rough guide

He will also more than likely have spent a lot more on a property than I will be doing and the quality, design and the build won't be up to a par as to what I will be getting. Making a presumption here but a big majority of people bought houses/condos in estates.

Even one off houses in the country that are 4-5000 Sq Feet still have the same dreary layout of the majority of Irish houses.

I could see you reasoning, and have been building for a while now, tho I took on no debt (well a small directors loan from own company to complete few bits and bobs, but theres no interest on that and no rush to pay back... )

Yes the labour costs are cheaper, much much cheaper, and alot more willing and professional builders about who are willing to put in the time for the quality finish.

Materials are overall cheaper, with exception of wood and insulation materials, but if you go for block build then not as much wood is needed...

Yes you can have the design you want (provided planners are happy...) and suprvise everything down to a brick, its a constant decision making process but yes at least you know what's going in unlike all the **** that was build in last 10 years which might not stand for too long and definitely would not pass any of the latest regulations, standards

So yeh, congrats and go for it and checkout the construction forum here its very informative

danbohan

Head The Wall wrote: »

I've enough time spent renting now and saving ability is reducing so it's time to take the plunge. It is a good time to have money


There's plenty of sites around with PP running out and it will be difficult to receive it again with the new planning laws. Will be approaching these owners with around 6 months of pp left. Buy it cheap with PP, Log cabin build, (no blocklayers) etc. Not going OTT with it

yes its good time to buy , dont underestimate costs people get carried away with labour costs materials are still expensive ,planning lasts 5 years and can be extended , yes there is bargains out there but a good site still sells for a good price

ei.sdraob

danbohan wrote: »

your going build a architect desighed home in the country of 5000 sq ft buy a site and have change out of 200k , yea sure you are even in thease ressionary times .

Yeh 5000sq ft for under 200K is unrealistic (and 5000sq ft is bloody huge!)

take the 100euro as square foot as guideline price to design, build and furnish to a relatively high standard

Could get to the builders finish stage for about 60-70 but things like kitchens, tiling, furniture etc have a tendency to add up

Then again alot of the newish houses sold were only done to a builders finish in last decade....

Head The Wall

danbohan wrote: »

your going build a architect desighed home in the country of 5000 sq ft buy a site and have change out of 200k , yea sure you are even in thease ressionary times .

No I used the 4-5k house as an example of the crappy house design in Ireland. e.g 8 ensuite bedrooms, tiny living rooms etc

1600-1800 Sqf house will do me, sites with PP are cheaper than you think if you hold the upper hand which I have explained already. I don't want an architect designed house either, I'll be buying a site with PP, I'm not overly picky about the outside look of the house, it's inside where the difference will be visible e.g proper open plan, cathedral ceilings etc. All these are readily available in Log Cabin builds for reasonable money.

I have my research and costings done and know where I'm going with it.

danbohan

Head The Wall wrote: »

No I used the 4-5k house as an example of the crappy house design in Ireland. e.g 8 ensuite bedrooms, tiny living rooms etc

1600-1800 Sqf house will do me, sites with PP are cheaper than you think if you hold the upper hand which I have explained already. I don't want an architect designed house either, I'll be buying a site with PP, I'm not overly picky about the outside look of the house, it's inside where the difference will be visible e.g proper open plan, cathedral ceilings etc. All these are readily available in Log Cabin builds for reasonable money.

I have my research and costings done and know where I'm going with it.[/QUOTE

clever man , never could see why anybody needed 5000sq ft house my friend has one and its like a fridge in winter
should be intersting build , any probs with planning on the log cabins they can look very nice in right setting but there are some horrors too , good luck with it .

ei.sdraob

would the planners allow a log cabin build in Ireland? that's the big question

I know someone that refused one before because it would have been "out of character" blah blah

Head The Wall

danbohan wrote: »

Head The Wall wrote: »

No I used the 4-5k house as an example of the crappy house design in Ireland. e.g 8 ensuite bedrooms, tiny living rooms etc

1600-1800 Sqf house will do me, sites with PP are cheaper than you think if you hold the upper hand which I have explained already. I don't want an architect designed house either, I'll be buying a site with PP, I'm not overly picky about the outside look of the house, it's inside where the difference will be visible e.g proper open plan, cathedral ceilings etc. All these are readily available in Log Cabin builds for reasonable money.

I have my research and costings done and know where I'm going with it.[/QUOTE

clever man , never could see why anybody needed 5000sq ft house my friend has one and its like a fridge in winter
should be intersting build , any probs with planning on the log cabins they can look very nice in right setting but there are some horrors too , good luck with it .

The house will have to look like the PP on the site so the logs will be faced with cement board and rendered and also to keep the missus happy. Don't want to deal with Planning at all. Too many headaches and money and time to be lost. Cheers

Head The Wall

ei.sdraob wrote: »

would the planners allow a log cabin build in Ireland? that's the big question

I know someone that refused one before because it would have been "out of character" blah blah

http://www.scanhome.ie/ Plenty of them about

ZYX

Head The Wall wrote: »

http://www.scanhome.ie/ Plenty of them about

I know it is all about personal choice but they look seriously ugly and expensive for what you get.

Scarab80

ei.sdraob wrote: »

... (well a small directors loan from own company to complete few bits and bobs, but theres no interest on that and no rush to pay back... )

Talk to your accountant about this. There are BIK implications for you and there are possible withholding tax, surcharge and company law implications for the company.

ei.sdraob

Scarab80 wrote: »

Talk to your accountant about this. There are BIK implications for you and there are possible withholding tax, surcharge and company law implications for the company.

Thanks, yeh I did. From what I gathered, there's tax (20% or so) on that had to be paid around the end of company year, get this back when loan its re-paid. Not a large amount anyways since I had savings and ended up not needing as much as planned and Ill probably repay it before the year end.

Scarab80

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Thanks, yeh I did. From what I gathered, there's tax (20% or so) on that had to be paid around the end of company year, get this back when loan its re-paid. Not a large amount anyways since I had savings and ended up not needing as much as planned and Ill probably repay it before the year end.

There is also a 12.5% Preferential Interest Rate BIK due to be paid by the director, that is if no interest is repaid to the company by the director. In my experience revenue aren't very strict in applying this where the loan is repaid before the year end but there is still a liability there you should be aware of.