No bicycles on Luas and Metro, against Government policy

monument

What do people here think of this? The RPA are going directly against the National Cycle Policy, which is Government policy:

Safety concerns were given by the state agency as the reason for only allowing folding bicycles on its trams.

“[RPA] policy is to allow only fold-up cycles on Luas due primarily to safety concerns from emergency braking incidents and minor contact with non-foldable cycles,” said RPA spokesman Tom Manning. “The current design for Metro North will not cater for the carriage of bikes.”

Full article here.

As mentioned on here before Irish Rail are to do trials on Commuter rail services, but no news of bikes on the Dart yet. Bikes on buses is only mentioned in the cycle policy under a pilot project.

This is what the cycle policy says:

Bicycles and Sub-Urban Rail
We will permit the carriage of bikes on DART and other suburban rail services at off-peak times and on counter peak services at peak hour, following a more detailed study which will recommend suitable devices / facilities for the proper restraining of bikes on the trains. This will include all future Metro plans in Dublin (or anywhere else they may be planned).

Bicycles and LUAS
We will provide for the carriage of bikes on LUAS when services are of a frequency and at a capacity that allows for it. i.e. when it is considered possible to carry bikes on carriages when they do not interfere with the capacity for pedestrians.

Bicycles on Urban Bus Services
We will support the development of a pilot project for the carriage
of bikes on urban bus services comparable to what is currently
used on buses in Canada and US

(my underlining)

Captain Havoc

I'll try not to go on an abusive tangent against public transport in Ireland but how fúcking hard is it to put up six hooks like they have on Swiss trains? I used to go all over Switzerland with my bike. Even the mainline trains have managed to put two bike places where there could be six. I was on the RER in Paris, you just hold onto your bike, it's not complicated, anyone who has a bike is generally fit enough to hold onto it. Joke, it's a joke, they're pointing their fingers at us and laughing.

Lumen

"The current design for Metro North will not cater for the carriage of bikes"

What I think can be expressed only in asterisks.

tomasrojo

The SI that mandates the use of Cycle Tracks is still in place, there will be almost no carriage of bikes on trains, and this apparently is the blueprint for cycling provison in Galway now:


Does anyone actually listen to the Department of Transport? Can all these jokers just be fired and we all start again?

Blowfish

Personally I think it's overly optimistic to presume that the national cycle policy will ever be implemented in it's entirety given the governments history. It's pretty much inevitable that they wont live up to what they promise.

At this point it's more an issue of just being happy when they implement any of it at all, rather than expecting them to implement it all and being disapointed when they don't.

tomasrojo

"Safety concerns" seems to be the catch-all term for discriminating against people wo use bicycles. Because bicycles kill 250+ people every year.

tomasrojo

Blowfish wrote: »

Personally I think it's overly optimistic to presume that the national cycle policy will ever be implemented in it's entirety given the governments history. It's pretty much inevitable that they wont live up to what they promise.

At this point it's more an issue of just being happy when they implement any of it at all, rather than expecting them to implement it all and being disapointed when they don't.

That might be a healthier attitude, but I can't think of one thing they've implemented yet.

tomasrojo

However, after objections from cyclists groups in Manchester, the city’s transport authority is now reviewing its decision to ban bicycles from trams. Campaigners in the city protested using ironing boards to highlight larger items still allowed onboard the Manchester trams.

http://dublinobserver.com/2010/07/quango-goes-against-cycling-plan-on-safety-concerns/

Might be worth doing.

tomasrojo

This article is really very interesting.

Dublin Bus spokeswoman, Cliodhna Ni Fhatharta, said: “We have no provision on our current vehicles for the carriage of bikes unless they are fold up and can be carried or left in the luggage area. We did not purchase any new buses in 2009 and will not purchase any new buses in 2010. However we will keep the proposals set out in the National Cycle Policy under review.”

And yet I was thrown off a Dublin Bus for bringing on a compact folding bike. And when I looked for clarification from Dublin Bus that the driver was wrong to do so, they said he had discretion to do so. On "safety" grounds, of course!

So, you can bring on a folding bike, according to Cliodhna Ni Fhatharta, but obviously the driver can then throw you off and refuse to refund you the fare.

mcgratheoin

tomasrojo wrote: »

http://dublinobserver.com/2010/07/quango-goes-against-cycling-plan-on-safety-concerns/

Might be worth doing.

How about getting a bike shop to give us a load of boxes off bikes - they'd be exactly the same size as a bike would be and we could get a bunch of people together to carry them. I'd definitely be up for a Luas trip with a big unwieldy box.

My "wish it was here" story is about the T-Bahn in Oslo - one of the lines runs up around a hill with trails on it. You can take your bike (or sledge in the winter) up on the train - hammer down a trail in the forest, and get the train back up again - all for less than a tenner for a 24hr ticket on public transport.

tomasrojo

That T-Bahn sounds great!

Not sure about using bike boxes, since it would seem to vindicate their stance that bikes get in the way.

That campaign in Manchester used items that the railway authorities allowed on without question. Ironing boards was one, but there were plenty of others that I can't recall right now.

monument

tomasrojo wrote: »

That T-Bahn sounds great!

Not sure about using bike boxes, since it would seem to vindicate their stance that bikes get in the way.

That campaign in Manchester used items that the railway authorities allowed on without question. Ironing boards was one, but there were plenty of others that I can't recall right now.

It's worth noting that bicycles are not banned in the bylaws. It's at the discretion of the RPA as well as Veolia staff (the staff of whoever is operating the Luas or Metro services for the RPA).

They could as easily say that you're not allow to bring a big box on board.

blorg

monument wrote: »

It's worth noting that bicycles are not banned in the bylaws. It's at the discretion of the RPA as well as Veolia staff (the staff of whoever is operating the Luas or Metro services for the RPA).

They could as easily say that you're not allow to bring a big box on board.

That is interesting- are you sure? I have brought a packed bike in a bike suitcase (very large!) on the LUAS no problem. I had presumed that naked bikes were banned.

monument

blorg wrote: »

That is interesting- are you sure? I have brought a packed bike in a bike suitcase (very large!) on the LUAS no problem. I had presumed that naked bikes were banned.

Bicycles are banned, but banned by discretion. Bicycles are not mentioned in the bylaws. It's just a policy to ban them.

(I should have said 'Veolia', not 'Veolia staff')

kenmc

If you were to take off the wheels and carry them seperate to the frame how would they react I wonder. I mean you can legitimately say "This is not a bike, it's a bike frame". "Oh no those wheels are not for this bike, this is a campy setup and they're shimano wheels, ". Especially if it was in a black bin bag. "This is a duvet." or "This is a doohickey - it's a specialty tool for my job. I'm obliged to keep it on my person at all times, the security of the state relies on it."
Must be able to fight rediculous with rediculous

tomasrojo

kenmc wrote: »

If you were to take off the wheels and carry them seperate to the frame how would they react I wonder. I mean you can legitimately say "This is not a bike, it's a bike frame". "Oh no those wheels are not for this bike, this is a campy setup and they're shimano wheels, ". Especially if it was in a black bin bag.

I don't think there would be any objections if you partially dismantled the bike and put it in a black bin bag. Only because no-one would know it was a bike, and the objection to bikes isn't really for any safety reason, but because certain people don't like cyclists.

I now put the compact folder in a bin bag, not only for getting on buses, but even getting on the Dart or Luas. Just because I usually have time to do it while waiting for the train, and I really don't feel like being thrown off any more public transport. It's embarrassing and really puts a dent in your day.

It also means that I don't have to have a conversation about Bromptons with strangers on every journey.

kumate_champ07

I'm not sure why anyone would want to bring a bike onto a Luas tram in the first place, it would be much handier and possibly quicker to stay on the bike and cycle it!

tomasrojo

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I'm not sure why anyone would want to bring a bike onto a Luas tram in the first place, it would be much handier and possibly quicker to stay on the bike and cycle it!

Normally, yes. But sometimes you're coming down with an illness, for example, and don't have the strength. Some people can't fix punctures, and rely on someone at home to do them. Also, Howth to Bray is a lot faster on the Dart.

mcgratheoin

tomasrojo wrote: »

Also, Howth to Bray is a lot faster on the Dart.

Aha! A challenge

p

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I'm not sure why anyone would want to bring a bike onto a Luas tram in the first place, it would be much handier and possibly quicker to stay on the bike and cycle it!

There are a thousand different reasons why this is desirable. Put 20 seconds of thought into it and you can see how it'd be useful to cyclists.

kumate_champ07

tomasrojo wrote: »

Normally, yes. But sometimes you're coming down with an illness, for example, and don't have the strength. Some people can't fix punctures, and rely on someone at home to do them. Also, Howth to Bray is a lot faster on the Dart.

I'm talking about the Luas

you are describing emergency situations which is just bad luck

I bring my bike on the train from Dublin to Newbridge some evenings because I dont fancy cycling in the dark and also I have no shops to stop at for food/drinks on a big part of the journey

RoundTower

given all of this why do people here still insist that cyclists should stick to the letter of the law regarding red lights, cycle lanes, etc?

Victor

I got a bike on a Luas recently, unfortunately, it falls under my emergency reason to have a bike on public transport - I had a puncture.

The driver was cool about it and said the reasoning was glass. The CSO wasn't so cool about it, so I started quoting the bye-laws to her.

RoundTower wrote: »

given all of this why do people here still insist that cyclists should stick to the letter of the law regarding red lights, cycle lanes, etc?

We want to change the law, not break the law. Because if we break the law, motorists will break the law and that will kill people.

-Chris-

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I'm talking about the Luas

I live beyond the Sandyford end (at Cherrywood basically). I'd like to have the freedom to cycle around town.

I can cycle into town (prob 40 mins+), arrive all sweaty and then cycle around or I can get the 145 into town and use the DBs (man, I love DBs ).

I'd think a great 3rd option would be to cycle to Sandyford, get the Luas into town, and then continue to use my bike in town, freeing up DBs for other people.

It's win win!

tomasrojo

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I'm talking about the Luas

Well, Tallaght to The Point is probably faster on the Luas than cycling. For most people anyway.

It's very handy being able to bring a bike on public transport. I'd only do it occasionally myself, but I can imagine plenty of people getting good use of the option, especially for leisure.

RoundTower

Victor wrote: »

We want to change the law, not break the law. Because if we break the law, motorists will break the law and that will kill people.

no, if cyclists break the law, motorists will also break the law.

if cyclists don't break the law, motorists will still break the law.

The only thing that will stop motorists breaking the law is garda enforcement, not seeing cyclists stopping at red lights more often.

maninasia

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I'm talking about the Luas

you are describing emergency situations which is just bad luck

I bring my bike on the train from Dublin to Newbridge some evenings because I dont fancy cycling in the dark and also I have no shops to stop at for food/drinks on a big part of the journey

Let's see what reasons one would have to bring a bike on the Luas after .0002 seconds of criticial thinking ... RAIN.

Cabaal

Hang on now,
They won't allow folding bikes due to safety concerns but they'll allow prams and buggys?

tomasrojo

Cabaal wrote: »

Hang on now,
They won't allow folding bikes due to safety concerns but they'll allow prams and buggys?

In my case, I got a Brompton onto Dublin Buses about a dozen times before the time I got thrown off. The problem was that Dublin Bus wouldn't make it clear whether or not folding bikes were allowed. They said it was at the driver's discretion.

But you're right: most buggies are far bigger and less stable than a folded Brompton.

Cabaal

tomasrojo wrote: »

But you're right: most buggies are far bigger and less stable than a folded Brompton.

In addition you can have more control over a folded bike then some buggys when you are moving them about,

Bunnyhopper

I was in Pearse Station in Dublin today and saw a lot of these notices posted around the foyer and platforms.

cantalach

In Perth, Australia, you can bring your bike on the train so long as you avoid services towards the CBD in the morning rush hour and away from the CBD in the evening rush hour. There's a large floor area without seating inside each set of doors that is shared by cyclists and wheelchair users. This system has been in place for years. If it would strengthen the case here in Ireland, a request could be submitted to TransPerth under their freedom of information legislation to get statistics on the number of persons injured over the years by errant bicycles.

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

Well, Tallaght to The Point is probably faster on the Luas than cycling. For most people anyway.

As one of the slowest cyclist in history, I wish to dispute that statement.

tomasrojo

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

I was in Pearse Station in Dublin today and saw a lot of these notices posted around the foyer and platforms.

At least they have a policy on folding bikes, I suppose, though I really can't see why they can't make a start on implementing government policy on carrying bikes. As already said here, it's done in plenty of other countries.

By "packed folded bicycles" I presume they mean "covered folded bicycles", which is the usual way it's phrased. I mean, they can't actually want it in a box or something?

tomasrojo

CramCycle wrote: »

As one of the slowest cyclist in history, I wish to dispute that statement.

Fair point. I shouldn't assume.

http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/luas001/category/1087

That says the Luas takes 52 minutes. The distance seems to be about 13.5km. So that suggests an average speed of 15.6km/h. I'm not sure what sort of average travel speed that equates to for a bicycle, but maybe 20km/h? Less if you RLJ, I suppose.

It's not amazingly fast but to keep it up for 50 minutes or so is probably a stretch for a lot of people (as opposed to people who post here, who generally cycle a lot).

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

Fair point. I shouldn't assume.

http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/luas001/category/1087

That says the Luas takes 52 minutes. The distance seems to be about 13.5km. So that suggests an average speed of 15.6km/h. I'm not sure what sort of average travel speed that equates to for a bicycle, but maybe 20km/h? Less if you RLJ, I suppose.

It's not amazingly fast but to keep it up for 50 minutes or so is probably a stretch for a lot of people (as opposed to people who post here, who generally cycle a lot).

I cycle in and out from Tallaght quite alot. Going to Tallaght I don't think most would beat the LUAS but I think most would on the way into town. It always seems alot faster, as it seems to be a slight downhill most of the way (I could be wrong).

monkeypants

taking ironing boards and deckchairs – which are permitted – onto trams

That's a genius way to make a point. The people who come up with this kind of stuff should be asked for input more often.

Victor

CramCycle wrote: »

I cycle in and out from Tallaght quite alot. Going to Tallaght I don't think most would beat the LUAS but I think most would on the way into town. It always seems alot faster, as it seems to be a slight downhill most of the way (I could be wrong).

Tallaght is at about 110m above sea level (I think the Luas peak is about 117m). Between Spencer Dock and The Point, Luas drops to below high tide (but not low tide).