Employer withdraws AFTER the contract is signed

_NY_

We've got a major shock today and are looking for advice

My partner is currently employed and had some 5-6 months left on his contract when he was approached by another company and got a good offer which was negotiated for around 6 weeks as he wanted to be sure that he covered everything. Then he's got a signed contract by mail that he signed and returned, he gave a termination notice at his current place and had to start next week and just today morning he was approached by a recruiter who was a middleman in this situation stating that they decided that don't need him as their project will be postponed for another 6-12 months. That they can take him for 3 months as compensation (contract was for 12 months).

It was all so unexpected and ... weird!
Is it legal to do this way? I guess my partner has to back off from the deal and stick with his current employer but this is just .. sick.

Any advice would be appreciated

Welease

He needs to check the terms of his contract.. I would imagine there is a notice period/contract termination clause which they can probably just enforce that..

It the nature of contracting, look at it the other way.. he had 6 months left on the contract with his current company and decided not to fullfill his complete obligations and used a termination/notice period clause to opt out.. His potential new employer is just doing the same.. .

_NY_

Well I do understand that it is the nature of contracting but is it not irresponsible to make an offer, discuss it fiercely, persuade a person that he is needed and when he gives notice at his current place just to pass him back to recruiter with "not longer needed" notice?

It was such a surrealistic situation...

goat2

you say he gave a termination notice at his current job,
which means he will be starting all over again, i suspect
and his current employer does not have to reverse that termination, as he should be thinking that your partner would be gone in the morning if he got a better offer
there would be a bit of uncertainty in that

Ace2007

So he was going to walk out on his job for another job and leave his current employer in a pickle?? hope the current job has found someone else and he ends up out of pocket cause he deserves it.

eire2009

Depending on the expressed terms of the contract, will depend on the foreseeable losses that the employer is liable for .. Although in contract law the contract was signed and confirmed on their side before it was posted to you and they would be liable for their side of the contract as would be my opinion ..

If they terminated the contract after it was signed I would argue that they are liable for their end as "no sum of a lesser amount can be judged as the same of the amount owed regardless if it was agreed or not..

Therefore take the 3 months and then take them to court for the other 9...

I'm presuming you just signed the contract without receiving a copy nor will they easily hand you one over ..

Post this in the law forum ...

Have a look at contract law on the employers side and look at a few case studies before you go to a solicitor .. I can send you some notes Via email if you wish although there easily found online..

Good luck

_NY_

goat2 wrote: »

his current employer does not have to reverse that termination, as he should be thinking that your partner would be gone in the morning if he got a better offer
there would be a bit of uncertainty in that

Luckily they reversed it. But sure there is so much uncertainty around him now

_NY_

Ace2007 wrote: »

So he was going to walk out on his job for another job and leave his current employer in a pickle?? hope the current job has found someone else and he ends up out of pocket cause he deserves it.

Thank you for kind words

He is not a key figure at his current place and there would be close to none impact on the project in case he left 'cause they are expanding the team and getting new people every week or so. It's a big multinational, so don't think employer was any what in a pickle

_NY_

eire2009 wrote: »

I'm presuming you just signed the contract without receiving a copy nor will they easily hand you one over ..

Oh, yes we DO have a signed copy of the contract that's why he gave his termination notice, we were pretty much sure that there was no way back.

Thank you for assistance, I'll do a search for sure but don't think we'll go to courts with that ... Though that would be pretty much a lesson for them.

Ace2007

_NY_ wrote: »

Thank you for kind words

He is not a key figure at his current place and there would be close to none impact on the project in case he left 'cause they are expanding the team and getting new people every week or so. It's a big multinational, so don't think employer was any what in a pickle

ah well then he'll be no loss, and end up out of job, and won't get the dole cause he left his job:)

_NY_

Ace2007 wrote: »

ah well then he'll be no loss, and end up out of job, and won't get the dole cause he left his job:)

Thanks for support .. anyway

Bullseye1

Ace2007 wrote: »

ah well then he'll be no loss, and end up out of job, and won't get the dole cause he left his job:)

So much for charity.

Welease

_NY_ wrote: »

Oh, yes we DO have a signed copy of the contract that's why he gave his termination notice, we were pretty much sure that there was no way back.

Thank you for assistance, I'll do a search for sure but don't think we'll go to courts with that ... Though that would be pretty much a lesson for them.

It is somewhat unfair (don't get me wrong), we all need to be employed, and no one would want to be in this position...

But I don't understand why you believe that it's acceptable for your OH to walk out on an agreed contract, but when others do the same it's shocking and they need to be tought a lesson.. After all, this situation would not have arisen if your OH had not been willing to break his contract first (although he is of course entitled to do so, as was his prospective employer)...

As for the uncertainty around him now, that is of his making and noone else can be blamed for that... if things had gone to plan there would be no uncertainty, he would have walked out

Magenta

Ace2007 wrote: »

So he was going to walk out on his job for another job and leave his current employer in a pickle?? hope the current job has found someone else and he ends up out of pocket cause he deserves it.

Right, so nobody should ever leave their jobs in case it leaves their employer "in a pickle"? Think of all the available jobs in this country vs the number of unemployed. I'll give you a clue- the employers are at a massive advantage.

Ace2007 wrote: »

ah well then he'll be no loss, and end up out of job, and won't get the dole cause he left his job:)

Actually, you are wrong, he will be entitled to it after 9 weeks.

Ace2007

Magenta wrote: »

Right, so nobody should ever leave their jobs in case it leaves their employer "in a pickle"? Think of all the available jobs in this country vs the number of unemployed. I'll give you a clue- the employers are at a massive advantage.



Actually, you are wrong, he will be entitled to it after 9 weeks.

He has a contract and is breaking it, surely the company he is with should be able to force him to work it or stop him going to a different company - is that fair on the company, answer is no.

if you leave a company yourself - your not entitled - gl tryin to tell the SW office any different.

Welease

Magenta wrote: »

Right, so nobody should ever leave their jobs in case it leaves their employer "in a pickle"? Think of all the available jobs in this country vs the number of unemployed. I'll give you a clue- the employers are at a massive advantage.

I think you need to put this in the context of the OP's original complaint.. They were annoyed that while walking out on a contract they signed, the company they were moving to decided to walk out on that contract.

It happens, that's why contracts are structured to allow for this.. but it's hard to feel sympathy for one person being impacted by the very action they decided to take which initiated the sequence..

Welease

Welease wrote: »

I think you need to put this in the context of the OP's original complaint.. They were annoyed that while walking out on a contract they signed, the company they were moving to decided to walk out on that contract.

It happens, that's why contracts are structured to allow for this.. but it's hard to feel sympathy for one person being impacted by the very action they decided to take which initiated the sequence..

Yeah, but the whole point is, it's most likely not difficult at all for the company to find someone else. It's highly doubtful they are 'in a pickle.'

And it just isn't the same situation at all. He gave notice to the employer. That's perfectly acceptable. He didn't walk out one day leaving them in the lurch. It is not the same in any way, shape or form as a company offering someone a job and then withdrawing the offer after the contract is signed and before the job has even started! I'm not even sure that's legal.

Welease

Royal Fat Ritual wrote: »

Yeah, but the whole point is, it's most likely not difficult at all for the company to find someone else. It's highly doubtful they are 'in a pickle.'

And it just isn't the same situation at all. He gave notice to the employer. That's perfectly acceptable. He didn't walk out one day leaving them in the lurch. It is not the same in any way, shape or form as a company offering someone a job and then withdrawing the offer after the contract is signed and before the job has even started! I'm not even sure that's legal.

A) It can be legal given the terms and conditions of the agreement
b) Someone who walks out on a contracting job willfully is hardly "in a pickle".. they were employed (and given they were headhunted).. in good employment..

seamus

Ace2007 wrote: »

He has a contract and is breaking it, surely the company he is with should be able to force him to work it or stop him going to a different company - is that fair on the company, answer is no.

He wasn't breaking his contract, he was ending the contract within the terms defined in that contract, as he is perfectly entitled to do and as his employer would be perfectly entitled to do on their side.

There's nothing wrong with leaving a job ffs.

_NY_

Welease, I can see your point but I think that you are a bit wrong.
If it was individual-individual-individual situation you will be perfectly correct, but it is company-individual-company situation.
When you sign a contract with a company you expect that a contract will at least start.
Can you imagine companies around you would start just refusing following the contracts they signed? Not just employment but services (landline, mobile, electricity etc), It is something that you just don't expect to happen.

And thank you seamus for support. I've already started thinking that changing employer is a crime in this country

Royal Fat Ritual, thank you for support as well. I'm pretty much interested at the point of legality of this situation. If we don't take this to court we will at least be aware of what lines to add to future employment contracts to avoid such situations.

Ace2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

So he was going to walk out on his job for another job and leave his current employer in a pickle?? hope the current job has found someone else and he ends up out of pocket cause he deserves it.

Most folks in a job left a job to get there :rolleyes:
It's not marraige it's a job / contract whatever. Once you give the required notice I don't see the problem.

John_Mc

Ace2007 wrote: »

So he was going to walk out on his job for another job and leave his current employer in a pickle?? hope the current job has found someone else and he ends up out of pocket cause he deserves it.

Ace2007 wrote: »

ah well then he'll be no loss, and end up out of job, and won't get the dole cause he left his job:)

You're a real nice person aren't ya :rolleyes:

Ace2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

ah well then he'll be no loss, and end up out of job, and won't get the dole cause he left his job:)

Most contractors don't get the dole when out of work. As a contractor I have had projects cancelled before they start, I have also had my rate adjusted (downwards) mid contract, I have never left a contract mid way through but I wouldn't frown on anyone for doing so. Anyone who does I suggest ye get real.

OP, sorry to hear this, two options, avail of the 3 months in the new place or come clean with the current crowd.

edanto

From how you've described it - it does seem like the new company were well within their rights to terminate the contract - but you will have to look at the 'termination' clause in the contract and see what it says. If it says that it can be terminated by either side with one month's notice, as most do, then unfortunately he is stuck.

It's not like they are discriminating against him in any way, it's just that the planned project isn't starting, so a lot of people are being affected.

The agency are already trying to make things sweet by offering 3 months salary - you might get them to give another month or two of salary in compensation.

However, the best route would be to go cap in hand to the current employer and try to get his existing job back. They will probably be glad to keep him on, it normally takes a few months for a new employee to get up to speed, so it's better value for them to keep him on.

Good luck to him!

---

For reference, here's a standard termination clause from a contract:

On leaving the Company, written notice should be submitted to your manager. The minimum required period of notice, other than as outlined in 3 above, is one month. In the interests of your colleagues at work, it is important that full notice is given.

The Company many terminate your employment, other than as outlined in 3 above, on the giving of a month’s notice. The Company reserves the right to give pay in lieu of notice, and also reserves the right to require you to remain away from the work place during the course of all or part of your notice period.

On termination, any property of any nature belonging to the Company should be returned to the Company, any copy documentation of any nature howsoever maintained, whether electronic or otherwise must be returned and no copies retained.

_NY_

RoverJames wrote: »

As a contractor I have had projects cancelled before they start, I have also had my rate adjusted (downwards) mid contract

:eek: OMG, seems that we are just poorly informed on a contractor ways. Thanks for sharing this

OP, sorry to hear this, two options, avail of the 3 months in the new place

Thank you. There is no point in taking 3 months to just sit there doing nothing ... while was promised to have an interesting and challenging project to step in.

_NY_

edanto, thanks for the input.
The termination clause is pretty much the same stated by you.
Is there any point in going to agency(employer) for any compensation taking in consideration that he was able to reverse his termination at current place?

_NY_

_NY_ wrote: »

Thank you. There is no point in taking 3 months to just sit there doing nothing ... while was promised to have an interesting and challenging project to step in.

Well for a start it's 3 months wages which is a good bit better than sitting at home (been there done that myself). Secondly they will no doubt get him working on something which may lead to an extension.

edanto

_NY_ wrote: »

Is there any point in going to agency(employer) for any compensation taking in consideration that he was able to reverse his termination at current place?

I'm afraid I don't quite understand that question - could you give a little more detail...

- what is the status at his current job? Is he working there now? Has he had a frank discussion with the HR department?

- will they keep him on?

_NY_

_NY_ wrote: »

Is there any point in going to agency(employer) for any compensation taking in consideration that he was able to reverse his termination at current place?

Compensation for what ? It seems he has reversed the termination, he doesn't need to be compensated. Contracting is a tough ole game, take the experience from this and move on.

Welease

_NY_ wrote: »

Welease, I can see your point but I think that you are a bit wrong.
If it was individual-individual-individual situation you will be perfectly correct, but it is company-individual-company situation.
When you sign a contract with a company you expect that a contract will at least start.
Can you imagine companies around you would start just refusing following the contracts they signed? Not just employment but services (landline, mobile, electricity etc), It is something that you just don't expect to happen.
.

But Unless I am very much mistaken there is no difference in the legality of a contract between individuals or individuals/companies.. Therefore it is the same situation irrespective.

As has been mentioned, the contract was not broken, it was ended under the terms available for ending the contract (we are assuming, as we havent seen the T&C's).. That in itself would make it legal, and was what your OH was doing with his contract (via a notice period).

I do support you on the point it's bad practice, and it would suck for it to happen.. absolutely, I just don't agree that you have a legal route for any form of compensation (unless the T&C's don't allow for the contract to be ended).

I (and i think others) would be interested to hear the outcome if you do manage to get "real" legal advice (as mine is obviously just an opinion)..

Ace2007

seamus wrote: »

He wasn't breaking his contract, he was ending the contract within the terms defined in that contract, as he is perfectly entitled to do and as his employer would be perfectly entitled to do on their side.

There's nothing wrong with leaving a job ffs.

First of all how do you know what the terms where, i know plenty of people in contracts that if they leave they can't go to a firm in the same industry.

Secondly as he was ending his contract, the company can just let him go or re-hire him at a less wage - yea?

The OP is moaning because a company he was going to work for decided to break the contract before he started, which is more or less what he is doin.

I do love the way on here that you can only be on the OP's side or else people go mad.

Ace2007

RoverJames wrote: »

Most folks in a job left a job to get there :rolleyes:
It's not marraige it's a job / contract whatever. Once you give the required notice I don't see the problem.

Most people in Contract jobs stay in them for the duration before moving on. I'd love to see a person gettin a reference from a company that they joined got fully trained with and walked out on to go to a rival company.

seamus

Ace2007 wrote: »

First of all how do you know what the terms where, i know plenty of people in contracts that if they leave they can't go to a firm in the same industry.

Such terms are illegal - they're unconstitutional.

And what makes you think that he was going to work for a competitor?

The OP is moaning because a company he was going to work for decided to break the contract before he started, which is more or less what he is doin.

No, that's entirely not what he was doing. He was leaving a job, like everyone has done at one point or another and are perfectly entitled to do.

Why do you think the OP should be punished for changing job?

Ace2007

seamus wrote: »

Such terms are illegal - they're unconstitutional.

And what makes you think that he was going to work for a competitor?
No, that's entirely not what he was doing. He was leaving a job, like everyone has done at one point or another and are perfectly entitled to do.

Why do you think the OP should be punished for changing job?

Trading firms all have it in their contract they you can't go to a rival for a period of time(years).

He handed in his notice to take another job that now he can only get for 3 months, so he just wants to stay in his current job and you think he should be allowed?

Stay where he is for 5/6 months after he's handed in his notice to walk out.
Or go to other job for 3 months - where he has signed a contract (we don't know the terms).

Magenta

Ace2007 wrote: »

He has a contract and is breaking it, surely the company he is with should be able to force him to work it or stop him going to a different company - is that fair on the company, answer is no.

What do you suggest, a ball and chain? :rolleyes:

Ace2007 wrote: »

if you leave a company yourself - your not entitled - gl tryin to tell the SW office any different.

www.welfare.ie wrote:

You may be disqualified from getting Jobseeker's Benefit for 9 weeks if you:

Left work voluntarily and without a reasonable cause

You are only not entitled for 9 weeks, as I said. And only if you don't have a reasonable cause.
Please try to have some idea of what you are talking about.

Ace2007

Magenta wrote: »

What do you suggest, a ball and chain? :rolleyes:





You are only not entitled for 9 weeks, as I said. And only if you don't have a reasonable cause.
Please try to have some idea of what you are talking about.

getting more money in another company is hardly a reasonable cause - is it?

seamus

Ace2007 wrote: »

Trading firms all have it in their contract they you can't go to a rival for a period of time(years).

That doesn't make it legal. After all, if I'm a GSM telecommunications engineer working for Vodafone, then there are only three other employers I can possibly work for, all of whom compete with mine. So such a clause is not legal.

He handed in his notice to take another job that now he can only get for 3 months, so he just wants to stay in his current job and you think he should be allowed?

Why not? He doesn't have a right to the job he left, of course not, but at the same time, assuming that he has otherwise been a fine employee, what kind of half-assed idiot employer would turn him down out of spite?

Again, why do you think the old employer should be punishing him? Why are you so dead set that this guy doesn't deserve to have a job at all?

Magenta

Ace2007 wrote: »

getting more money in another company is hardly a reasonable cause - is it?

Are you seriously suggesting that it's unreasonable to leave a company when you are offered a better paid job somewhere else?

Ace2007

seamus wrote: »

That doesn't make it legal. After all, if I'm a GSM telecommunications engineer working for Vodafone, then there are only three other employers I can possibly work for, all of whom compete with mine. So such a clause is not legal.
Why not? He doesn't have a right to the job he left, of course not, but at the same time, assuming that he has otherwise been a fine employee, what kind of half-assed idiot employer would turn him down out of spite?

Again, why do you think the old employer should be punishing him? Why are you so dead set that this guy doesn't deserve to have a job at all?

A person who walks out of their job clearly doesn't want it - look at the unemployed figures, They could easly find someone that will work for them.
Everyone knows that an employee that likes their job works harder than someone who doesn't want to be there.

Regardin the dole, he has a job and then left on his own accord, are you sayin that he is then entitled to sign on?

A GSM contract may not have that clause - i was just pointing out one sector that does have it.

Ace2007

Magenta wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that it's unreasonable to leave a company when you are offered a better paid job somewhere else?

nope but i was saying its not a reasonable reason to sign onto the dole if Company A decides not to give him his job back and he doesn't want to take Compnay B's job for 3 months

Magenta

Ace2007 wrote: »

Regardin the dole, he has a job and then left on his own accord, are you sayin that he is then entitled to sign on?

Yet again- yes, he is entitled to sign on. How many times do you have to be told the same thing before you are able to understand it?

Ace2007

Magenta wrote: »

Yet again- yes, he is entitled to sign on. How many times do you have to be told the same thing before you are able to understand it?

No wonder this Country is F**Ked

Agent_99

Nice to see so many people here that are still doing heir paper rounds for fear of terminating a contract , Every person employed is under a contract and as the world turns we are always looking to go onward and upward to better our selfs. why is everyone getting on to the OP because they were trying to better their career prospects. It is really bad form that the employer chose not to complete on the contract that they offered and then reneged I hope that his current employer allows him to continue in his present position. But it must be gut wrenching to have to withdraw his resignation.

Good Luck

Mrs OBumble

OP, I don't want to sound heartless, but if you partner was an employee (I'm not sure from what you've said if they're PAYE or a genuine contractor) then what happened is totally legal, and the three-months payout is in fact generous.

The sad fact of employment law in this country is that a new employee can be let go for no reason at all, and with very little notice, within the first twelve months.

I know of some folks who were taken on by a multi-national IT firm. They were given 12 month temporary-employee contracts through an agency 'cos "this is how we do it", but the expectation was that there would be more work after that. Some relocated here from other countries even, and moved their families too. Three months into the contract, there was a change of strategy, and they were given a months notice. All totally legal.

Ace2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

Most people in Contract jobs stay in them for the duration before moving on. I'd love to see a person gettin a reference from a company that they joined got fully trained with and walked out on to go to a rival company.

I finished up in a place after a 12 month contract, they wanted me to stay but they had been pr1cking around with the PO number etc so I got another contract. Guess who contacted me a year later asking me to come back ?

You come across as an awfully narrow minded, cautious, brainwashed company man who is seeing out their working life in one company praying that it will never close or tell you to f off.

Ace2007

RoverJames wrote: »

I finished up in a place after a 12 month contract, they wanted me to stay but they had been pr1cking around with the PO number etc so I got another contract. Guess who contacted me a year later asking me to come back ?

You come across as an awfully narrow minded, cautious, brainwashed company man who is seeing out their working life in one company praying that it will never close or tell you to f off.

No idea what a PO number is, but you said your finished up in a place after a 12 month contract, so you waited till the end, you didn't hand in your notice to leave and then ask to stay.

And no i'm not any of those things - far from it

Magenta

RoverJames wrote: »

I finished up in a place after a 12 month contract, they wanted me to stay but they had been pr1cking around with the PO number etc so I got another contract. Guess who contacted me a year later asking me to come back ?

You come across as an awfully narrow minded, cautious, brainwashed company man who is seeing out their working life in one company praying that it will never close or tell you to f off.

Wait til Ace2007 gets told his entire department is being moved to India so that it can be run for 1/4 of the cost. Then he'll learn what employer-employee loyalty is