New Induction for NQTs

Miss Lockhart

Just saw this in the Independent today:

Irish Independent wrote:

NEWLY qualified teachers at both primary and post-primary levels will have to undergo a new induction and probationary programme.


The reform, which will be announced today by Education Minister Mary Coughlan, is to be phased in from September.


Aimed at improving teacher quality, it will involve more rigorous assessment and inspection in the nation's classrooms.


Ms Coughlan will outline details of the new programme at the MacGill Summer School in Glenties, Co Donegal.


She believes that Ireland has significant weaknesses in helping newly qualified teachers to take charge of a classroom.


Ms Coughlan says that a teacher's first months and year in a post are critical.


She says that at the moment, induction support for teachers at primary level is limited.

Probation
And, with a small number of exceptions, induction support at post-primary level is virtually non-existent.


The minister says the probationary process for teachers is "also well below the optimum".


At primary level, it excludes any meaningful involvement of school management; while at post-primary, it involves, in most cases, the sign-off of a principal teacher without any observation of the teacher's work in the classroom.


The Teaching Council will be empowered to take responsibility for the reforms from 2012, but it is being phased in from September with an induction programme.


All primary teachers qualifying from September of this year will undergo induction immediately and all new post-primary teachers by the end of December.
- Katherine Donnelly

What does everyone think? Does the bolded section at the end mean secondary teachers who qualified in 2010 will be included? What do you think it will entail?

I think a good, supportive induction could be good for everone. There are no details about what will actually be involved though, and unfortunately, I do not have much faith that the DES will come up with something worthwhile.

spurious

You would wonder (again) what the point of the TC is if the DES still override them.

TheDriver

i would say some form of induction is very important and not all schools provide it so I would welcome something that would ensure new teachers are probated properly and also that the necessary resources are put at their disposal. Just hope its not some old clowns doing the probating!

Toto Wolfcastle

I went on an induction course for NQTs in my first year of teaching a couple of years ago. It was run by UCD I think. It ran over 5 days as far as I can remember. I found it rubbish, but that was down to the person who was running it more than anything else. I think it has been going for a few years now.

Miss Lockhart

County Dublin VEC run an ongoing thing for new and beginning teachers. It involves some evening conferences/seminars and also each school should have a senior teacher responsible for induction of the new teachers, with meetings held about once a month following initial introductory meetings. I've already been through this for 1 and a half years when I started there.

Some of the evening seminars were useful - on classroom management and general VEC policies. Even for just getting a chance to chat with other new teachers within the VEC they were good. Other meetings were useless.

I suppose the meetings in your school will depend on the school/teacher involved, but I found my school's programme really helpful and supportive.

implausible

janeybabe wrote: »

I went on an induction course for NQTs in my first year of teaching a couple of years ago. It was run by UCD I think. It ran over 5 days as far as I can remember. I found it rubbish, but that was down to the person who was running it more than anything else. I think it has been going for a few years now.

I did this too, even though I had been teaching 7 years:rolleyes: I was sent on it due to being new to the school. It was a pile of sh*te. A lot of it was stuff from the HDip or that should have been on the Dip (e.g. they gave us a presentation on dyslexia), it was unstructured, vague and largely irrelevant.

Any induction programme has to be well structured and is only going to be as good as the person delivering it.

byhookorbycrook

We have a pilot induction programme in our primary school. NQTs get to observe classes, including learning support. They get a folder on the school,with all curricular plans and policies as well as info on things like supervision, breaktimes etc. etc.
http://www.spd.dcu.ie/hosted/nppti/Pages/FAQs.html

This is seperate from the dip.

Toto Wolfcastle

That's the name of the one I did too, but for secondary. I didn't observe classes, although I could have, and I already had all the information on the school. It was mainly just talking to other NQTs.

spurious

The CDVEC run one too, but from what I hear it's more about making your way through claim forms and employee benefits than classroom oriented.
Our school informally assigns new people a 'minder' who helps them out re school-specific things.

gaeilgegrinds1

I'm wondering am I just uber cynical here or does this scream of someone trying to make jobs for people already doing nothing! I did a two-day course when I started, they person giving it was reasonably ok but the content was so watery, it was as though they did not cop we were all finished BECOMING teachers, not that we were thinking about it!

Tigerandahalf

I'd be very worried about this whole development. When I hear the words Teaching Council it scares me.
The Gov is intent on reducing costs and it seems it is targeting reducing the inspectorate involved in the Dip. If this is the case who is going to take up the slack..existing teachers in schools..I doubt it very much. It looks like the Teaching Council will be given the job and they will pass the cost onto the NQT. This is scary stuff.
Everyone would be for a proper induction as everyone knows the current dip especially at primary is a joke...paperpushing with no support.
NQTs look like they are going to be scr**ed left right and centre between lesser pensions, no jobs and this new development now. It's a bloody bad time to become a teacher.

Rosita

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

I'm wondering am I just uber cynical here or does this scream of someone trying to make jobs for people already doing nothing! I did a two-day course when I started, they person giving it was reasonably ok but the content was so watery, it was as though they did not cop we were all finished BECOMING teachers, not that we were thinking about it!

Yes, it seems like they are (a) trying to find job for people, and/or (b) trying to find a role for the Teaching Council other than simply collecting registration money (which woul dnot be a bad idea except that the role should have prompted the founding of the organisation rather than the othere way around) and/or (c) trying to be seen by the public to be "investing in education" without actually having to do so in a meaningful way.

There are already training courses for teachers such as the PDGE for second-level teachers and if they feel these are inadequate then they should engage with the colleges to deal with the shortfall.

TheDriver

This is not teacher training but rather induction and probation. In my experience, you think you know it all after college and the Dip yet when you actually start working and encounter situations etc, this is when most questions and on the job training becomes more applicable. However, it concerns me that the TC is involved as its a role for the inspectorate and also concerned as to the level of the courses. Having been involved in delivering inservice to teachers, it needs to be planned carefully and constructively and delivered by people who don't waffle, teachers are about the hardest people to teach.

Rosita

TheDriver wrote: »

This is not teacher training but rather induction and probation. In my experience, you think you know it all after college and the Dip yet when you actually start working and encounter situations etc, this is when most questions and on the job training becomes more applicable. However, it concerns me that the TC is involved as its a role for the inspectorate and also concerned as to the level of the courses. Having been involved in delivering inservice to teachers, it needs to be planned carefully and constructively and delivered by people who don't waffle, teachers are about the hardest people to teach.

"This is not teacher training but rather induction."

I fail to understand the clear difference in this context. If as the Minister says "Ireland has significant weaknesses in helping newly qualified teachers to take charge of a classroom" then I would say that's an implied criticism of the quality of training. People can call it induction or probation or whatever else but it goes back to the same thing as I see it - inadequate training. Perhaps the Dip should be a two-year course in order to cover the necessary elements? And surely there is something seriously wrong with Primary training if after three years teacher are unable "to take charge of a classroom"?

Not sure about you in your case but I certainly don't think I know it all after college and the Dip. In fact I know little or nothing about the ins and outs of the procedures in the school I'll be working in come September - and I have bags of stuff to get to grips with in relation to the syllabi. It will be a serious learning process for me.

But I expect that I'll be doing that learning that within the actual school and not from some government quango which will pile together one-size-fits-all induction courses.

TheDriver

Indeed you hit it on the head Rosita, the Dip needs to be radically overhauled. e.g. MaryI and St. Pats have totally different curriculum to do the same job. HDip in some places is terrible, in others its great. There is no standard. Some lecturers are awful, some are great. Some supervisors are battleaxes, some are great. When you do the year Dip for Primary once you start teaching, some inspectors expect unreasonable things, others are great.
You are rare, in my experience as is the case with my colleagues, people straight out usually seem to think they know it all and I was like that myself at the time. I even see it from evening teacher inservice whereby people in their 1st year out think they know it all and we always joke when reading the feedback forms that you can spot the people doing their Dip.
Some schools don't provide support within their own ranks, others are great at it. Again, its all too varied for my liking. Hence why a one size fits all is somewhat better at the moment than hoping every school does it.
And I must say, and I think most teachers would agree, experience in the classroom is the best learning for classroom management and dealing with students. All the college in the world and hearing about theories is lovely but its when you make all the mistakes, you learn for the next troubled child

implausible

TheDriver wrote: »

Having been involved in delivering inservice to teachers, it needs to be planned carefully and constructively and delivered by people who don't waffle, teachers are about the hardest people to teach.

This was my big issue with the Pilot induction I attended and I didn't waste any time indicating this on the feedback form.

In my opinion, induction should focus on the day-to-day issues in the profession. Personally, I had no idea of what an A-post or B-post was and how the school management was structured when I started. New teachers often don't know what to say at a parent-teacher meeting, how to deal with a belligerent parent, how to effectively differentiate in the classroom, how to deal with special needs students, how to interact with a SNA and they usually lack information on legal issues e.g.child protection.

Now, I know I learned that stuff through actually teaching, but only because I took an interest and made if my business to find out. We can't rely on the informal helping hand given by other teachers in the staffroom because people fall through the cracks and often teachers simply don't have the time.

Proper induction would result in more confident and competent teachers.

Rosita

TheDriver wrote: »

And I must say, and I think most teachers would agree, experience in the classroom is the best learning for classroom management and dealing with students. All the college in the world and hearing about theories is lovely but its when you make all the mistakes, you learn for the next troubled child

Of course most teachers would agree that you ultimately learn more about the classroom in the classroom than anywhere else - that stands to reason. But I don't understand how some induction course is going to simulate the classroom experience any better than the workshops during the Dip could manage.

TheDriver

because during the Dip, you generally have a 1st year class and spend all your time getting loads of lesson plans ready for them etc. Then in your 1st year teaching, you get a full timetable, lots of different levels and actually deal with classes that may be disruptive/horrible/underhanded etc. Generally your 1st year Dip class has been warned by the year head. Thats my view of the difference.

spurious

During the Dip., most schools shield the Dippers from the true horror of some classes. I know in our place, they would get the better able classes with very few children on IEPs. In fairness, it's not that hard to teach Mary who has all her homework done, loves school and wants to do well.

It's a bit of an eye opener if only having dealt with classes of Marys you suddenly get an Ann who has no bag, no books, a hangover, is only in school because the JLO says she has to be and spends the day texting, fixing her make-up and listening to her mp3s.

Some days it's like a Gertrude Stein poem.

OK, has everyone got their books out?
Tracy? Can you get your books?
FOR WHA'?
Come on Tracy, we're all waiting.
Oh, wouldja RELAX!
Have you got your folder Paul?
Did anyone see United last night?
ARE YOU FOR REAL???
Have ya got a lend of a pen?
He's SLAGGIN' ME MA!!
Can I have a sup of me water? I'm parched.
I HATE this school, they never let you do nothing. I'm going to (insert random neighbouring school here), it's well better than this kip.
He robbed me pen!
I need to go me tile-eh!
Is this the last class?

Rosita

TheDriver wrote: »

because during the Dip, you generally have a 1st year class and spend all your time getting loads of lesson plans ready for them etc. Then in your 1st year teaching, you get a full timetable, lots of different levels and actually deal with classes that may be disruptive/horrible/underhanded etc. Generally your 1st year Dip class has been warned by the year head. Thats my view of the difference.

I think some people here are under-estimating what some Dip students have to put up with during their Dip year (judging from what I heard in tutorials and workshops anyway) but notwithstanding what schools do for people during the Dip, means of dealing with disruptive behaviour is in fact well covered in workshops/lectures during the Dip year.

Yes, this can be dismissed as theoretical and detached from reality etc. which of necessity it is, but as I have already said what I fail to see is how an induction course will simulate reality any better.

I think we would all probably agree on the perceived limitations of the Dip but how is an induction course going to surmount the gap between theory and practice that the Dip suffers from? It seems to me that an induction course will still feature some fuddy duddy type who would not really convince you that they would handle Mary with the syringe and the AK-47 any better than you can talking about things in the abstract while expecting you to apply them in practice when you reach the classroom. And that sounds terribly like the Dip to me.

And somebody mentioned stuff like "how to effectively differentiate in the classroom, how to deal with special needs students....(and)......they usually lack information on legal issues e.g.child protection."

There is a series of lectures and an exam in the Dip on Special Needs. How is an induction course going to better this? Surely this is a case of applying what you know to your specific circumstances over the years in the classroom? To what extent is an induction course going to help in that respect? Are they really going to individualise every problem and turn up with you in the classroom to beat the issue into submission with a textbook?

As for legal issues such as child protection...........it is incumbent on school management to appraise people of this. The school I did the Dip in did so and it was one of the first things mentioned by the Principal of the school I will be working in.

At the risk of sounding like a spokesperson for the Dip. this area was also covered during that year and we were given a copy of the guidelines.

And in all fairness do we really need to take teachers out of school for a day to give them a course telling them what A and B posts are?

TheDriver

You are totally correct Rosita but you need to be aware that the Dip is different in all the colleges and taught differently. Not all colleges do special needs to the same degree, similar again to the differences in the primary teacher training colleges.
Unfortunately school management doesn't always let their new staff know what is happening which is wrong but happens.
I was under the impression these induction courses would be in the teacher's own time? But I would have the same fear, some old fuddy duddy would give them. If it was a proactive informative principal who made things interesting, then yes.

implausible

Rosita wrote: »

And somebody mentioned stuff like "how to effectively differentiate in the classroom, how to deal with special needs students....(and)......they usually lack information on legal issues e.g.child protection."

There is a series of lectures and an exam in the Dip on Special Needs.

As for legal issues such as child protection...........it is incumbent on school management to appraise people of this. The school I did the Dip in did so and it was one of the first things mentioned by the Principal of the school I will be working in.

And in all fairness do we really need to take teachers out of school for a day to give them a course telling them what A and B posts are?

Firstly, I'll have to admit that it has been a long time since I did my Dip and without a doubt, it was mostly rubbish. The one you've described is very different. I learned far more actually teaching, but there definitely is a need for this work-based learning to be standardised. A lot of what I suggested is based on the gaping holes in the knowledge of new teachers I've encountered in my school.

And you are right Rosita, it is "it is incumbent on school management to appraise people" of these legal issues, but again this strengthens the case for an induction. It just doesn't happen in every school, it should, but it doesn't and people fall through the gap. "Nobody told me" should not be an acceptable excuse for mistakes.

My point about the A and B posts was in reference to the fact that new teachers are very often unaware of the structure of the profession they are entering into. I have come across new teachers who took on the role of form teacher (only B-posters do this in our school) and another who ran to the VP with every single query she had as she was unaware that anyone else was in charge.

TheDriver wrote: »

... the Dip is different in all the colleges and taught differently. Not all colleges do special needs to the same degree, similar again to the differences in the primary teacher training colleges.
Unfortunately school management doesn't always let their new staff know what is happening which is wrong but happens.

There is obviously a need for standardisation here too. There is no reason why different colleges should have different curricula. If this was remedied, then there might be no need for induction.

Miss Lockhart

I have to agree with Rosita in that I don't see how an induction course can do any better than the PGDE at addressing the issues NQTs face when they begin teaching. I have also just completed the PGDE - in a different college than Rosita - and we covered SEN, classroom management, child protection and communicating with parents in great depth.

I had already taught in my TP school for 2 years before I did the course. I was definitely not shielded from the "true horror" (:P) of the classes! Also, I have also seen other Dip students come and go over the past 3 years and they were definitley given difficult students and difficult classes.

I definitely don't think I know it all - I know I have lots to learn and I really think experience is the only way I can learn and improve my skills. I am happy to have a supportive induction system in place though, where there is a designated person within my school to help and support me through any problems and issues I encounter.