3.15 for Dublin

Runonewon

Hoping to run 3.15 in DCM.I've been monitoring the sub 3 hour thread with a view to getting some guidelines and adapting the program to my plans,but the pace required is beyond me at the moment,i ran 3.23 in 2008 and 3.30 in 2009.The best i have managed in trems of sustained running recently is 8.25 pace for 17 miles last Saturday.Milage wise i'm putting in the effort clocking between 55 and 65 per week.Hope there is someone in the same boat.

MaroonTam

Hey Runonewon,

I am also aiming for 3:15 - 3:20 for DCM this year (Its my first marathon, so I know this is a challenging target, but my recent races have been in the right area time wise)

I think some questions first:
Do you have a recent race time to use to gauge your progress? (McMillian calculator will give you a rough enough approximation to know if you are on target)
Are you running comfortably at 8:25/mile for 17 miles or is this a struggle?
Are you doing any of the Marathon specific speed sessions discussed in the Sub3 mentored thread?

To give you an idea, my typical week would be
Monday - recovery - @8:50 - 9:00 / mile
Tuesday - Track intervals (sometimes the odd 800's session but mostly 1k or 2k repeats @5k pace) - 6:15 - 6:25 /mile
Wednesday - Rest
Thursday - medium long - 12.5 miles @ 8:20 / mile
Friday - rest
Saturday - Steady tempo / pace - 6 miles @ Half marathon pace - 7:00 / mile (building milage weekly)
Sunday - LSR - 18 miles @ 8:40 / mile

(Total milage aprox 45)

This plan has been devised by our club coach and does vary from week to week, but I have confidence in the plan to date and I am seeing massive improvements.

Hopefully some of the more experienced marathon runners will be able to give you more of an insight...

Alan

Bloody Nipples

Are you doing intervals and tempo runs? To run faster you've got to get out there and practise running faster.

ronanmac

Hi Runonewon,
I'm aiming for 3:15 myself, hoping to follow the pace group. I'm a little bit nervous about it as it's a big jump from my last two times, 3:55 last year and 4:28 in 2008. An improvement in my running and race times suggest it's doable though. I'm not putting in as much mileage as you, though, as I'm doing the Furman FIRST 3 running days a week programme. For example, last week I ran 29 miles, with a long run of 17 miles at 7:56 pace. I'm training for a 3:10 finish, but intend to run at a 3:15 pace. I hope the extra pace helps me stay on and not fade near the end as I usually do.

What kind of plan are you following yourself? I'm with Bloody Nipples on interval and tempo runs, as they are chief reason for an improvement in my own times. As far as I can see, you're definitely not lacking in mileage but I would certainly not be an authority on these matters.

Krusty_Clown

Hi Runonewon, what kind of a training program are you following? Do you do any running at your planned marathon pace (i.e. 7:25/mile)?
If you cannot get up to your planned race pace (over shorter runs) perhaps it suggests that your running strategy or goal may be mis-directed and needs some review?

RAL3

Hi Krusty, are you pacing 3.15 at the DCM?

Great if you are, I'm not sure if it will be realistic for myself yet but training is going well.

Would you be able to give any indication for aspiring 3.15 runners what targets they should be hitting for the rest of the Adidas series races, i.e., 10m & HM?

Thanks

RAL3

Oisin11178

Ral the way i got under 3,15 was a midweek pmp run. i got this upto 15-18 miles and even under pmp. Hard starting off but they became comfortable over time. Also 20 miles lsr with 10 at pmp at the peak. Tempo runs of upto 10 miles.

RAL3

Thanks Oisin,

following P & D 18wk (55max), might start working that into midweek runs

RAL3

Oisin11178

I got p+d myself recently. Alot to take in, seat dietry and hydration advice in there. had a skim through the plans and they look great.

Krusty_Clown

I hope to pace the 3:15 group, but it's in the hands of the god mod and the race organizers (and of course staying injury free). I'm not entirely sure to be honest RAL3. I've never ran 3:15 before (but I did pace it in Limerick). I'd imagine you'd want to be hitting at least 1:35 for the half though, and around 70 minutes for the 10 mile (thanks to McMillan!). Maybe a little quicker for the half, as it's the final build-up towards the race.

That's a solid plan RAL3. Got me to 3:00 in Berlin last year.

Runonewon

I have no specific plan,as i'm piggybackig off a number of training schedules,eg Boards Sub 3, and experience i would have had from running a number of years ago at a decent level.An example of typical week is as follows

Mon AM 5 miles Easy,PM 2 miles Warm up/6 x 400m hills/1 mile cool down

Tues 8miles 8.10 Pace,

Wed AM 5 miles Easy PM 6 miles 4 at tempo 7.45 pace(this is where i'm in most need of improvement)

Thur 12 miles 8.20 pace.

Fri Rest /Xtrain/ Swim OR Cycle

Sat LSR 17 miles

Sun 4 miles Easy/Recovery Run

As i look thru this in written form,the obvious lack of high pace runs is apparent.Some more quality work is in the offing at the expense of some of the quanity.

Runonewon

I have no specific plan,as i'm piggybackig off a number of training schedules,eg Boards Sub 3, and experience i would have had from running a number of years ago at a decent level.An example of typical week is as follows

Mon AM 5 miles Easy,PM 2 miles Warm up/6 x 400m hills/1 mile cool down

Tues 8miles 8.10 Pace,

Wed AM 5 miles Easy PM 6 miles 4 at tempo 7.45 pace(this is where i'm in most need of improvement)

Thur 12 miles 8.20 pace.

Fri Rest /Xtrain/ Swim OR Cycle

Sat LSR 17 miles

Sun 4 miles Easy/Recovery Run

As i look thru this in written form,the obvious lack of high pace runs is apparent.Some more quality work is in the offing at the expense of some of the quanity.

jb-ski

hi, watching this thread with interest.

i'm planning (a slightly ambitious) 3.20, but secretly considering 3.15
if training goes to plan, also P&D, 55 m/p/week.

doing a lot of miles with WK and LC, so i'm training with the right guys,
but i'm on my own the day:)

i'm very happy to see KC possibly (probably?) pacing 3.15, that's a great incentive to commit to those 5 minutes quicker,

but it's much easier to write that than to run it, (if ye know what i mean)

Krusty_Clown

If you're hitting 55-65 miles per week this early in the plan, then you can definitely afford to drop a medium length session in favour of a PMP session. Maybe start with PMP intervals and build up eventually to more continuous PMP mileage (up to around 10 miles)?

Runonewon

Krusty
Is there a recommended percentage of your weekly milage that should ran at marathon pace?.

Krusty_Clown

jb-ski wrote: »

i'm very happy to see KC possibly (probably?) pacing 3.15, that's a great incentive to commit to those 5 minutes quicker,

I would've thought that it would be an incentive to move up to sub-3, or drop back to 3:30? Anything but the clown! :P

RAL3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I hope to pace the 3:15 group, but it's in the hands of the god mod and the race organizers (and of course staying injury free). I'm not entirely sure to be honest RAL3. I've never ran 3:15 before (but I did pace it in Limerick). I'd imagine you'd want to be hitting at least 1:35 for the half though, and around 70 minutes for the 10 mile (thanks to McMillan!). Maybe a little quicker for the half, as it's the final build-up towards the race.

That's a solid plan RAL3. Got me to 3:00 in Berlin last year.

Thanks Krusty, did'nt mean to put you on the spot there.

I actually hit those times last year and got in under 3.30, I reckoned I'd have to go better again in order to have a shot at a lower time.

Like a lot of others on the forum I found McMillan pretty realistic for target times up to & including 15m but not so much after that - hence the original query.

Krusty_Clown

RAL3 wrote: »

Thanks Krusty, did'nt mean to put you on the spot there.

I actually hit those times last year and got in under 3.30, I reckoned I'd have to go better again in order to have a shot at a lower time.

Like a lot of others on the forum I found McMillan pretty realistic for target times up to & including 15m but not so much after that - hence the original query.

What do you think is stopping you from hitting 3:15? How did the 3:30 marathon go? Did you keep a consistent pace/effort throughout the race?

If I had those times under my belt (or quicker), I would be very (though quietly!) confident of hitting a 3:15 marathon, as long as I had the necessary endurance element of the training program in hand. I think the only thing preventing runners from hitting the McMillan equivalent paces over longer distances is a lack of endurance workouts, such as those prescribed by Tergat (or simply put, longer workouts which include some PMP mileage during or towards the end of a long run). Even following the P&D program, I would tend to try and get some pmp miles in towards the end of a long run.

RAL3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What do you think is stopping you from hitting 3:15? How did the 3:30 marathon go? Did you keep a consistent pace/effort throughout the race?

If I had those times under my belt (or quicker), I would be very (though quietly!) confident of hitting a 3:15 marathon, as long as I had the necessary endurance element of the training program in hand. I think the only thing preventing runners from hitting the McMillan equivalent paces over longer distances is a lack of endurance workouts, such as those prescribed by Tergat (or simply put, longer workouts which include some PMP mileage during or towards the end of a long run). Even following the P&D program, I would tend to try and get some pmp miles in towards the end of a long run.

Thanks Krusty

Finished in 3.28 (Amsterdam) and enjoyed it.
I suppose the goal last year was to get under 3.30, did'nt think I had any chance of 3.15 (afraid of blowup etc.).
PMP was 8 min miles and achieved 7.50 consistently but still don't think I could have managed 7.25.
So because of all the above I decide to try to up my game give the P & D a go and, as you suggest, it includes pmp miles at the end of long runs.

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the endurance workouts is concerned. Seeing improvements as a result of these already this year in race times, but was'nt sure if going for 3.15 was realistic.

Runonewon

Ran 7 miles at 7.28 pace today,Has got to be the toughest session i have done since i returned to running. Didn't realise i had it in me,maybe 40 is not over the hill.I'm cutting back one of my medium runs and replacing with 7/8 mile tempo run.

Oisin11178

At the end of my plan for 3.15 i was doing about over half of my miles at or below pmp. Some will say that thats 2 many but they were spread out over the week in a medium lenght pmp run upto 15 near the end and 21 long run with 11 at pmp. If i couldnt do these runs i yould not have gone for 3.15 on the day. on the day i cruised under 3.15 with 3.13 watch time. Others will have different opinions, thats jurt what worked for me.

AdamAntsy

I did 3.20 in my 1 and only marathon, no specific plan but worked out in that summer as

Mon - 10Km treadmill, increasing pace over each Km (Hard)
Tue - 7 Miles easy/medium
Wed - IMRA Hill run
Thurs - nothing or 3-5 mil easy
Fri Nothing
Sat - Long run - depending on how close to the day 10-20 miles.
Sun nothing

Did some biking on off days into work or MTB.

I think the key difference in speed came from the Hill Running, it's a flat out race each week building strength, and I'll attribute that to the real pickup.

In terms of pre-race indicators, I did a 1/2 marathon in Sep (Road race series) in 1:28 that felt good - easy for the first 8 -9 miles then dig in to keep up pace beyond that.

Krusty_Clown

AdamAntsy wrote: »

I did 3.20 in my 1 and only marathon, no specific plan.In terms of pre-race indicators, I did a 1/2 marathon in Sep (Road race series) in 1:28 that felt good - easy for the first 8 -9 miles then dig in to keep up pace beyond that.

How was your endurance base? How did the race go for you? I would imagine that anyone who could run a half marathon in 1:28 should be aiming for a target far more aggressive than 3:20.

Krusty_Clown

Runonewon wrote: »

Krusty Is there a recommended percentage of your weekly milage that should ran at marathon pace?.

No absolutely not. There aren't any general recommendations at all, which makes sense when you consider that there is no 'one size fits all' plan either.

I generally follow the Pfizinger and Douglas Advanced marathoning plans, which have PMP runs every other week, as part of the long run (for the first 6 weeks anyway). For example:
Week1: 15 Miles with 8 miles @PMP
Week3: 18 miles with 10 miles@PMP
Week6: 18 miles with 12 miles@PMP
In between there are also a large number of sessions at faster than PMP pace, e.g.: 10 Miles with 5 Miles @Half MP
After week 6 (of the 12 week plan) I don't think you do any further PMP mileage, but you do a lot more faster paced runs (progressively longer 5k Intervals and HMP pace runs). I still tend to try to finish my LSR runs at around PMP (just the last mile or two).

To take on a plan like the above you have to be in good form before you start the program, as 8 miles at PMP the first weekend is difficult, out of the traps.

Oisin11178

AdamAntsy wrote: »

I did 3.20 in my 1 and only marathon, no specific plan but worked out in that summer as

Mon - 10Km treadmill, increasing pace over each Km (Hard)
Tue - 7 Miles easy/medium
Wed - IMRA Hill run
Thurs - nothing or 3-5 mil easy
Fri Nothing
Sat - Long run - depending on how close to the day 10-20 miles.
Sun nothing

Did some biking on off days into work or MTB.

I think the key difference in speed came from the Hill Running, it's a flat out race each week building strength, and I'll attribute that to the real pickup.

In terms of pre-race indicators, I did a 1/2 marathon in Sep (Road race series) in 1:28 that felt good - easy for the first 8 -9 miles then dig in to keep up pace beyond that.

What was your goal?
Id say 3.05/3.08 would be a realistic goal off that half time.

Runonewon

Is there still going to be a 3.15 pacing group in DCN 2010?

xebec

Runonewon wrote: »

Is there still going to be a 3.15 pacing group in DCN 2010?

Yep, you'll have the pleasure of being accompanied by Krusty, Village Runner and one other afaik...

Krusty_Clown

Runonewon wrote: »

Is there still going to be a 3.15 pacing group in DCN 2010?

Yep, there better be! There are three of us lined up to pace it: Myself, Village_runner and RoryM. Myself and VR paced the 3:30 group in Dublin last year. I paced 3:15 in Limerick marathon earlier this year, and VR has paced lots of other races, including a number of 1:30 half marathons.

Runonewon

Great I'm really looking foward to this years race,i just hope i can keep up with ye,after the 3/4marathon last week i feel i might be able to hold on and at least get the 3.20 for boston.

jb-ski

xebec wrote: »

Yep, you'll have the pleasure of being accompanied by Krusty, Village Runner and one other afaik...

looking forward to it now. 3'15' a bit iffy but i'll be following very closely, for 3'19'59:)