RTÉ TV in UK and Europe

rlogue

The elephant in the room with all this talk about Kasat solutions for FTA RTE TV is the fact that possibly 200000+ people currently watch RTE TV outside Ireland using Irish Sky subs.

This *could* be an opportunity for RTE but they choose to publically ignore it.

Long ago Tara TV provided a "best of" RTE service in the UK on cable and on Sky. RTE did their very best to scupper the channel, first by stopping Sky from carrying Tara on Sky in Ireland and then finally shutting the channel just before the RTE-Sky deal kicked in in 2002. RTE pushed for a total liquidation of the channel as Tara owed royalties to RTE. RTE owned a 25% shareholding in the channel - the majority shareholder was UPC.

The RTE executives who deliberately shut down Tara were Liam Miller (now retired) and Conor Hayes, who recently announced the Ireland-only Saorsat FTA service.

An offer from Setanta to rescue Tara was rejected by RTE. This offer would have paid off Tara's debts to RTE but RTE rejected this. Even the examiner for Tara stated in his report that RTE were determined to liquidate the channel despite there being in place a business plan that would have put Tara onto a better financial footing.

Years passed and many thousands of hard core Irish TV fans brought their Irish Sky boxes abroad to watch the Irish channels. In 2008 the government announced e-consultation for the new Broadcasting Bill that would change the governance of RTE.

I saw an opportunity and took part in the e-Consultation process. I asked for an obligation on RTE to provide an overseas TV service by satellite. No doubt I wasn't the only one but one way or an another the proposal ended up in the final act.

Plans were made for an RTE International channel on Freesat but RTE scuppered this by holding out for government funding. This would never come and now we have a proposed Ireland only satellite service and as always nothing for the diaspora.
That diaspora is growing - we will shortly be back to 1980s style emigration and many of those emigrants would want to keep in touch with home.

And the 200000 boxes abroad? Shouldn't there be an opportunity here?

Minstrel27

rlogue wrote: »

Plans were made for an RTE International channel on Freesat but RTE scuppered this by holding out for government funding.

Why wouldn't they want money from the government?

slegs

rlogue wrote: »

The elephant in the room with all this talk about Kasat solutions for FTA RTE TV is the fact that possibly 200000+ people currently watch RTE TV outside Ireland using Irish Sky subs.

This *could* be an opportunity for RTE but they choose to publically ignore it.

Long ago Tara TV provided a "best of" RTE service in the UK on cable and on Sky. RTE did their very best to scupper the channel, first by stopping Sky from carrying Tara on Sky in Ireland and then finally shutting the channel just before the RTE-Sky deal kicked in in 2002. RTE pushed for a total liquidation of the channel as Tara owed royalties to RTE. RTE owned a 25% shareholding in the channel - the majority shareholder was UPC.

The RTE executives who deliberately shut down Tara were Liam Miller (now retired) and Conor Hayes, who recently announced the Ireland-only Saorsat FTA service.

An offer from Setanta to rescue Tara was rejected by RTE. This offer would have paid off Tara's debts to RTE but RTE rejected this. Even the examiner for Tara stated in his report that RTE were determined to liquidate the channel despite there being in place a business plan that would have put Tara onto a better financial footing.

Years passed and many thousands of hard core Irish TV fans brought their Irish Sky boxes abroad to watch the Irish channels. In 2008 the government announced e-consultation for the new Broadcasting Bill that would change the governance of RTE.

I saw an opportunity and took part in the e-Consultation process. I asked for an obligation on RTE to provide an overseas TV service by satellite. No doubt I wasn't the only one but one way or an another the proposal ended up in the final act.

Plans were made for an RTE International channel on Freesat but RTE scuppered this by holding out for government funding. This would never come and now we have a proposed Ireland only satellite service and as always nothing for the diaspora.
That diaspora is growing - we will shortly be back to 1980s style emigration and many of those emigrants would want to keep in touch with home.

And the 200000 boxes abroad? Shouldn't there be an opportunity here?

200k sounds very high considering their total base in Ireland is 800k max. Would say its nowhere nere that.

watty

The Government, not RTE has the obligation to fund an RTE International.

Possibly even the people abroad.

Certainly RTE should not be paying for a TV service for people that don't pay Irish Tax or Irish TV licence, nor should plans for Irish Domestic Transmission, content or Distribution be based around supplying people abroad with a service.

It's a disgrace that Ireland, almost alone has never had an External Radio service and that other than Short lived Tara Tv as not had External TV. The Government should have stepped in and taken control of finance Tara.


The 200,000 boxes (if true) are not whatsoever relevent to any domestic TV service and prove how a FTV card based on Geographic rights would be abused. Those 200,000 (alleged quantity) are using cards belonging to Sky and recieving content that is paid for sky. Nothing to do with RTE.

Any Replacement "Tara TV" service has to be either Free to Air, part financed by adverts and thus pretty poor on content, or else has to be a Pay TV service, which given Sky's Carriage, EPG & Encryption costs will need substantial Government susbsidy, thus to not fall foul of Competition law, is again limited to avoid any content not exclusively produced for Irish Market. Even then is problematic.

The only "RTE International" TV on Freesat plans were aspirations by Government with no consultation with RTE about costs and rights issues. Talk is cheap.

Blame successive Governments since 1922 for lack of proper World Wide Irish International Radio and lack of Irish International TV in North America, Australia and Europe. Not RTE.

The alleged 200,000 Sky boxes in UK with Irish Subs are not an opportunity, in fact even if there was an RTE International TV or still Tara TV, leakage of Irish Subs to anywhere that can receive Astra 2D and has Irish people would still exist at close to existing levels.

No EU law is broken, but it contravenes two contracts, the one with Irish broadcasters for the Rights Holders (including Irish Rights holders) with Sky as Sky is obliged to ensure no distribution of the Irish channels outside Republic. A slightly different arrangement for N.I. (which doesn't include TV3). Also the T&C with the subscriber to Sky. Sky own the card and the service and can and must legitimately turn off any Irish Sub to Sky they discover outside Ireland. They are obliged by legally binding contract.

The A.S.O., Soarsat, DTT and alleged 200,000 skyboxes in UK are not opportunities for RTE. Nothing has changed whatsoever since disgraceful demise of Tara TV.

Conclusions.

• We needed a decent International TV and Radio when Tara closed and we still need one now.
• Any solution should be funded direct by Government and if possible the Foreign Viewers.
• No funding by RTE or the TV Licence.
• Possibly the Channel should not be an RTE channel
• Technical & Distribution by RTENL
• Not just UK, but Europe, North America and Australia
• Whatever number of Sky boxes out side Ireland have "Irish" cards is irrelevant. That just shows how useless encryption is to limit geographic coverage.
• Saorsat is irrelevant, not part of the solution, but solutions to ASO and lack of DTT coverage. FTV card is not economically viable as costs would be €12M to €30M compared to €1.5M. A FTV card could not contractually be supplied to UK addresses for Irish only.
• FTV card is no use as solution.
• Regular Sky payTV channel is very expensive to run
• One Freesat channel is nearly as expensive or even as expensive as all of Saorsat, excluding content costs which are high, even for Irish only content. A FTA (Freesat) channel would be like an Irish flavour of Euronews.

scruffy66

rlogue wrote: »

The elephant in the room with all this talk about Kasat solutions for FTA RTE TV is the fact that possibly 200000+ people currently watch RTE TV outside Ireland using Irish Sky subs.

This *could* be an opportunity for RTE but they choose to publically ignore it.

Long ago Tara TV provided a "best of" RTE service in the UK on cable and on Sky. RTE did their very best to scupper the channel, first by stopping Sky from carrying Tara on Sky in Ireland and then finally shutting the channel just before the RTE-Sky deal kicked in in 2002. RTE pushed for a total liquidation of the channel as Tara owed royalties to RTE. RTE owned a 25% shareholding in the channel - the majority shareholder was UPC.

The RTE executives who deliberately shut down Tara were Liam Miller (now retired) and Conor Hayes, who recently announced the Ireland-only Saorsat FTA service.

An offer from Setanta to rescue Tara was rejected by RTE. This offer would have paid off Tara's debts to RTE but RTE rejected this. Even the examiner for Tara stated in his report that RTE were determined to liquidate the channel despite there being in place a business plan that would have put Tara onto a better financial footing.

Years passed and many thousands of hard core Irish TV fans brought their Irish Sky boxes abroad to watch the Irish channels. In 2008 the government announced e-consultation for the new Broadcasting Bill that would change the governance of RTE.

I saw an opportunity and took part in the e-Consultation process. I asked for an obligation on RTE to provide an overseas TV service by satellite. No doubt I wasn't the only one but one way or an another the proposal ended up in the final act.

Plans were made for an RTE International channel on Freesat but RTE scuppered this by holding out for government funding. This would never come and now we have a proposed Ireland only satellite service and as always nothing for the diaspora.
That diaspora is growing - we will shortly be back to 1980s style emigration and many of those emigrants would want to keep in touch with home.

And the 200000 boxes abroad? Shouldn't there be an opportunity here?

ID have to agree with most of what you say RLOGUE, I thought RTE had set a date for the RTE international channel and then it was put back and then eventually it was canceled due to recession. I dont buy this reason , i think the main reason RTE international was canceled was the same reason TARA was scrapped.

I know that many people are only interested in RTE for the home grown programs, eg news etc, if this channel was on freesat /freetoair , many people would'nt bother with the aerial for the other channels , rte2/tv3/ tg4.

RTE could'nt take the chance on rte international becoming popular in IRELAND and SKY would have used their influence to have it scrapped.

Maybe if saorsat takes off , RTE international will be installed as well.

IF you think about it RTE INTER would be a great promotion for IRELAND,
It could be great for the tourist industry,im sure rte have loads of stuff in the archives.Having an International channel says a lot about how a country see's itself. Wont be holding my breath thou.

Mr McBoatface

In an ideal world RTE International should be available to the Irish aboard, but it should be funded through the department of Foreign affairs, not RTE and not by the Irish TV licence fee.

The promotion of Ireland through programming seems like a good idea but the target audience for RTE international aboard would be the Irish aboard. I'd imagine to attract tourist to spend cash here you would some how have to increase RTE internationals audience to more than the Irish aboard. I'm not saying it couldn't be done but Fair City isn't exactly going to get the punters queuing at the airports to get to Dublin.

But if the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport pursued such initiative means of promoting Ireland then they along with the department of Foreign affairs could fund RTE international, not RTE and not by the Irish TV licence fee.

Minstrel27

scruffy66 wrote: »

RTE could'nt take the chance on rte international becoming popular in IRELAND and SKY would have used their influence to have it scrapped.

If it launched there is no way it would have been included on the EPG in Ireland. A small percentage probably know about Other Channels. It was scrapped because RTÉ could not afford it. Sky would have had absolutely no influence on the decision. That is bordering on tin foil hat territory.

watty

Sky would welcome it. More money and another Channel.

But will Irish people abroad and others pay for such a channel?

Say €250K content (likely more)
Five staff on average of €50K, Add office overheads, Employer contributions etc.. €500K
Assume no extra cost uplink (unlikely)
EPG €200K
carriage €800K
(FTA, no encryption cost)
Total €1.75M for one channel, Content is Simulcast of three regular RTE News, + repeats of it + archive material (not all archive material has rebroacast rights).

More realistically...
Content €1M (even home material, extra royalty/Performance costs due to x20 audience)
Staff for 24hrs coverage, London office overheads, Employer contributions etc.. €5M
4 x key presenters @ €250k €1M
Cost London uplink €250K
EPG €200K
carriage €1.2M
(FTA, no encryption cost)
Total about €8M to €9M

If you make it a pay Channel to try and recover some costs add €1M to €3M for encryption.

So if "RTE International" TV is done on a "shoe string" in a basic way with absolute cheapest content, from a broom closet in DonnyBrook and only FTA on Sky (UK EPG only) then it's Maybe €1M to €2M.

If it's done properly and with dedicated studio (London or Dublin) and on Sky FTA UK EPG it could be €6M to €10M. Add €4.5M for rest of Europe, Austriala and North America. Stupid not to, since a large of the cost is actually the cost of having a channel and Sky is the most expensive of all four for Carriage and EPG.

So my estimate is that a very basic basically rubbish "RTE International" for UK only is about the same cost as the entire Saorsat 9 channel TV + 12 Radio copy of Saorview DTT (for backup and for people with no DTT reception). Saorsat is a completely different kind of platform to what is needed for RTE International. Saorsat (a clone of DTT Saorview) can never be FTA in UK mainland or PayTV or FTV card. That could cost up to €30M p.a. or more just for UK. It's not possible.

So a Rubbish UK only service is about €1M to €2M.
A Proper dedicated channel like DW TV, but from Ireland could be €5M for UK only or €15M for UK Rest of Europe, North America and Austraila. But might be €20M.

Whatever the costs are it should be funded direct by Government. It's likely hardly anyone would pay for it, so the payTV route in UK would cost more than the earnings.

It would be interesting to find costs of DW TV.

Should RTE International have some 15 min segments in other languages like TRT International, Nile TV, JSTV, Kol Israel and others do?

Should it have two 1/2 hour Irish Language segments?

If it's just an RTE flavoured version of Sky News or BBC 24, then IMO it's a wasted effort. It needs current Irish sport and good quality magazine programs (having those good quality magazine programs on Domestic TV instead of some of the rubbish we do have would be an improvement.)

Doing it Properly will not be cheap. Simply trying to fill the 24hrs with low "rights" cost stuff from Archives and current output will be a rubbish channel.

kuro_man

Maybe they should get a slot on freeview rather than freesat; that would stop most people in Ireland getting it, reduce the carriage costs and increase advertising revenue. It is the de-facto viewing platform in the UK.

watty

Freeview is MORE expensive than Satellite!
Also while Satellite at 28.2 is short of capacity, Freeview is even worse. Not everywhere even gets full line up.

Macy0161

watty wrote: »

Doing it Properly will not be cheap. Simply trying to fill the 24hrs with low "rights" cost stuff from Archives and current output will be a rubbish channel.

Wouldn't the most likely be the RTE News Now - obviously has the news content, but it does also carry Prime Time and Frontline. I guess it could fall into the doing it cheap and rubbish, but it would presumably reduce overheads to virtually nothing extra on the RTE side.

Would the current affairs content have the same rights/ performance issues as artistic content or sports?

Add in "Nationwide", and I wouldn't think it would be too bad a channel, if the aim was to keep the diaspora up to date as to what's happening at home.

Still doesn't get around who pays, and it shouldn't be RTE.

slegs

Macy0161 wrote: »

Wouldn't the most likely be the RTE News Now - obviously has the news content, but it does also carry Prime Time and Frontline. I guess it could fall into the doing it cheap and rubbish, but it would presumably reduce overheads to virtually nothing extra on the RTE side.

Would the current affairs content have the same rights/ performance issues as artistic content or sports?

Add in "Nationwide", and I wouldn't think it would be too bad a channel, if the aim was to keep the diaspora up to date as to what's happening at home.

Still doesn't get around who pays, and it shouldn't be RTE.

Good Idea...there is lots of RTE Current Affairs stuff that could go on it

Minstrel27

It would be good if they got rid of the appalling scrolling tickers and information bars.

Digifriendly

kuro_man wrote: »

Maybe they should get a slot on freeview rather than freesat; that would stop most people in Ireland getting it, reduce the carriage costs and increase advertising revenue. It is the de-facto viewing platform in the UK.

Would it though? After DSO main transmitters in NI will have ramped up their DTT signals and many more in ROI than at present will pick up those signals. Add in those along the eastern seaboard of Ireland who already pick up Welsh DTT and quite a lot in ROI will get UK DTT I guess.

watty

About 1/4 to 1/3rd would be able to get Freeview depending on how much is spent on aerial and pole.

watty

Minstrel27 wrote: »

It would be good if they got rid of the appalling scrolling tickers and information bars.

On ALL international and news channels.

I guess they are for Bars, fastfood, bus/rail/airport terminals etc where you have no or little sound. I hate them. Makes it hard to concentrate on the main A/V

Macy0161

watty wrote: »

I guess they are for Bars, fastfood, bus/rail/airport terminals etc where you have no or little sound. I hate them. Makes it hard to concentrate on the main A/V

I'm not technical enough to know, but I always assumed they were a means towards a lower bitrate end...