IT Training Providers (Rant Warning!)

Raekwon

I have been approved a certain fixed about of money to secure myself some IT training but have hit a brick wall trying to negotiate a price with the vast majority of training providers in Dublin.

You would think in the current climate of unprecedented unemployment and major training budget cuts across the board that they would atleast try and be competitive and bring their prices down to get bums in seats. I find it ridiculous that the majority of these companies would prefer not to run courses at all then to get a few people in at discounted prices rather then continue to charge a few grand for a couple of days training.

An example of this is when I got a quote from a well known training provider in Dublin quoting me a price that is higher then their listed price but then have the cheek to tell me that they will give me a discount that in actually fact only equated to the 'actually' listed price (most don't list prices on their websites either). I was then told that he would give me a further 'discount' if I got more people to participate in this course with me even though he knew my situation and that I wasn't bankrolled by a some corporations finances.

Has anyone actually successfully negotiated a more 'favourable' price with one of these training providers or do they still think they can charge Celtic Tiger era prices to punters who have been hit hardest by the downturn?

/rant

seventyeight

Yeah, I've got good discounts on courses from one provider. There's a stupid markup on most of those courses so just go to the next training company and play them all off each other.

I agree with you though, there's no logic to most of it other than sheer greed.

unnameduser

A lot of money was made in the training business in the last few years. Depending on the subject matter I have seen trainers charging up to €999 per day! Granted it was specialised stuff.

Like you I would have expected the arse to have falen out of it by now. Keep looking around. There must be more value out there.

You could look here. Its a list of FAS registered trainers. You might find an individual or organisation that can help you out.

Static M.e.

Yes, I have with a VMware and PRINCE2 training courses, I think I got the VMware one for ~1300 down from 2K.

When I did the PRINCE2 course, out of class of 8, three different training providers had presence there.

If it was me, I would simply ring them (not email) all and tell them what I want for my money and then see what you get. Don't necessarily just go for the big guys try some of the others.. Honestly it really depends on what you want to get training in as well. Instructors have to be flown over from England\Northern Ireland, because of the shortage of demand here, so I wouldn't just jump on providers because they cant offer you a price you "think" is fair.

Has anyone actually successfully negotiated a more 'favorable' price with one of these training providers or do they still think they can charge Celtic Tiger era prices to punters who have been hit hardest by the downturn?

I don't think they care at all, not even slightly about those who are hardest hit, they want to make money off you full stop.

Why not post what courses you are looking for and perhaps someone here could find reasonable prices for you, if you are willing to travel etc.

You should also consider teaching yourself and just paying for the exams, which is pretty much what I do these days. The only courses where I pay for training is with those like PRINCE2 and VMware in which you cant do the exam without taking a course.

Either way Raekwon, I hope you find what you need

Raekwon

Cheers for the responses folks! I'm just frustrated that training providers seem to be still targeting their services exclusively for the staff of corporate clients instead of adapting to the current climate and trying to work with national training and employment authorities to help upskill recently unemployed people and stimulate the 'knowledge economy' (ugh, I cringe whenever someone uses that phrase, especially clueless politicians).

But like you said, they couldn't really careless about anything other then instant profit and will keep their prices at a premium even if class sizes are diminishing and some of their instructors have probably taken paycuts over the last year or so to compensate for this (a buddy of mine who is an instructor went over to the UK because of this).

Static M.e. wrote: »

Yes, I have with a VMware and PRINCE2 training courses, I think I got the VMware one for ~1300 down from 2K.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about Static M.E. I want to do a VMware course that costs €1800 and have a maximum of €1200 to do it with. I have self studied for my MCSA & CCNA but like you said self study is out the window with this as you have to participate in a course to do the exam.

I have also called around training providers and was talking to the bigger training providers here in Dublin but none of them are budging on price. They also are refusing to give me a quote in writing (ie: e-mail) and I need this to prove the actually agreed price so I can secure the funds (and make sure they don't slap another few quid on at the last minute and insist that was the original quote). I was also talking to a smaller provider and they told me that they would match (or possible undercut?) any or their competitors discounted prices, although they would need it in writing too (if I ever get a discount that is). But they did warn me that if they couldn't fill the class then they wouldn't run the course, which is fair enough.

I actually thought that they would be way more competitive then they are as I'm sure everyone that contacts them looking for training haggles when it comes to the price. After all some of these courses are hugely overpriced for what you actually receive. I'm referring mainly to Microsoft ones here where the instructor most likely just goes through the official course material and throws in a few examples as he goes along. They charge a few grand for this where most people could just buy the course material online for under €100 then pay €140 or what ever it is to sit then exam and save themselves a small fortune.

Static M.e.

Give me a sec and I can find out who I did the vmware training with.

OK, The PRINCE2 Training cost €1295 with Global Knowledge

The VMware course was with commtech.ie I cant find the exact cost because we purchased a number of products with them which totaled 2200.. either that or my memory is rusty and the course cost 2200, but I dont think so.

The Course was actually ok too, about as good as you get. Worth giving them a call anyway

Raekwon

Thanks for the info! I'll give commtech a call in the morning and see what they come up with.

Btw did you do the VMware Fast Track course (5 days @ €2,500) or one of the shorter 4 day courses that cost €1,800 each? I'd be more interested in one of the shorter courses but SureSkills did offer me a last minute place on their Fast Track course for €1,750 (which is a saving of €750) but it's still over my budget.

Static M.e.

I did a 5 day Fast Track course 9 - 6 each day, was quite a fast paced course too with the usual labs etc, but if you have any experience with VMware you should be fine.

If you book the course, you should be able to get the course manuals in advance so you can read them before the course.

The labs contain pretty much all the basic vmware jobs, create a vm, migrate, build a virtual switch, create snapshots etc

Raekwon

Just got an email from a training provider telling me that they are running a VMware course in couple of weeks that (I quote) "usually retails at €2,300 but we will give you a place on this course for €1,500 - which is a discount of €800!".

I knew straight away that the prices quoted were b.s. but I laughed when I saw that below the email signature that they have has a list of discount prices of some last minute courses and the exact same course that they offered me was on the list for the discounted price of €1,200 down from the RRP of €1,800 :rolleyes:

Standard Toaster

Who was that with??
Pm me if needs be. Just shopping around for that very same course

Raekwon

PM sent.

Standard Toaster

Bloody chancers. Offered me the same course for 1500 a few month back....'special discount' if I booked before months end.
I almost did and all.

Cheers lad. The search continues...

Raekwon

Standard Toaster (or anyone else looking to do courses), did you have any luck getting any discounts from training providers in the end?

I'm still have great difficulty trying to get a course for a less extortionate rate, infact the VMware course that I want to do has just been updated (from v4 to v4.1) and the price has gone from €1,800 to €2,500 :rolleyes:

Standard Toaster

Hi mate,

Have been sidetracked as of late here in work so haven't been looking.
I did notice the jump to 4.1 in various places though didn't think they up the price too

€2,500?

Once I get my training budget allocated I'll have a hunt then and report back.

Raekwon

Cheers for the reply man!

Yeah I got abit sidetracked myself but just noticed that there are a few courses coming up in the next few weeks so I'm going to do my best to get on them.

The trouble with the new v4.1 courses is that it is giving the training providers an even bigger excuse to push prices up then ever before. The old vSphere: Install, Configure and Troubleshoot course was RRP: €1800 and the new version's RRP is €2500 but I got a quote over the phone of €3395 (€3200 + €195 exam) with a last minute discount rate of €895 so the course would cost me €2,500..........which is the original RRP anyway! :rolleyes:

Obviously if you read my other posts then you will see that this isn't the first time that I've been quoted ridiculous prices, but the 3 VMware Authorized Training Centres in Ireland seem to be a law onto themselves. I'm absolutely gob-smacked at the totally fabricated prices that these glorified salesmen are pulling from the tops of their heads, their mark-up prices are still absolutely massive even without going through the roof with their own made-up prices.

Ah, I'm ranting again :pac:

Anyway let me know how you get on and feel free to PM if you get anything or have any recommendations.

coolpix23

yea it's Father Jack f***en a&&e ridiclous.

You ring around the major providers and the prices have droped less than 10% and they're still within €50 of each other!

I hope a few of the big independants go under, just for a shake up in competion.

Patrick

Mervin J Minky

This article is from last year but it's interesting to see that FAS have now cut all of their funding for the Technical Employment Support Grant (TESG) but have added training for both Prince2 & ITIL v3 to their training lists. Plus I really doubt that training providers are dropping their prices by 30% like is claimed by some of them in the article, I think they only dropped the prices on Prince2 & ITIL v3 because FAS are doing them for free (if you are unemployed of course).

Funding shortfall hits IT market

The problems with FAS are well documented but what people don’t realise is that now, when the economy is on its knees, is when FAS are need most.

Okay, so a book could be written on the mismanagement at the state training agency but, this does not mean we still don’t need it, FAS still has a role in helping important sectors, such as IT. And we need it to fulfill its duties to those who are out of work and whom need retraining in order that the country has a skilled workforce that is needed to attract the right and retain the IT companies that our economy needs.

In the article below, which was printed in the Sunday Business Post yesterday, Cathal Grogan of Verify Recruitment talks about how the problems with FAS are affecting the IT sector.

With scandals at Fás still fresh in people’s minds, the effects have reverberated across the wider economy and unemployed IT contractors are the latest to feel the effects.

Unable to meet the high cost of private training courses in skills such as project management, contractors would ordinarily turn to the state training agency for assistance. However, Fás is no longer funding courses in areas like Prince2 or IT Infrastructure Library (ITIL). For job-seekers, the problem is that more employers are seeking candidates with these qualifications.

‘‘Our candidates are typically people with lots of experience and who find themselves between jobs,” said Cathal Grogan, managing director of Verify Recruitment. ‘‘They are applying for positions and employers are not only looking for experience, but also some sort of accreditation for their skills.”
Clara Gough, IT consultant with Robert Walters Recruitment Agency, said the requirement was also being applied to broader IT skills such as Microsoft certification.

‘‘Where the hiring manager feels there is a good pool of candidates in the market, they use this as a filter,” she said.

However, job-seekers looking to take some of the higher level Fás courses are faced with long waiting lists. Moreover, there are no clear guidelines as to whether IT contractors, who are often self-employed, qualify to receive funding.

‘‘It’s a grey area as to whether or not they are eligible,” said Grogan. ‘‘That has led to a lot of candidates coming to us and asking us for Prince2 or ITIL courses, but those can cost anything from €1,200 to a couple of thousand euro.”

Jim Friars, chief executive of the Irish Computer Society, said he was disappointed at the Fás decision. He said training and certification in professional skills were ‘‘essential’’ to economic recovery. Such skills include not only project management, but also data protection.

‘‘We believe that the government needs to strike a balance and to assign a high priority to professional-level skills,” Friars said.

While some third level, government funded initiatives facilitate unemployed people taking part in degree programmes, Friars said industry driven programmes were necessary.

He said that courses like the Data Protection Practitioner’s Certificate and European Certificate of Informatics Professionals (EUCIP), certified by the ICS should receive the same government support as university courses.

Some training firms have responded by dropping prices to fill the gap left by Fás. Last month, IT service management specialist ESMI developed a Prince2 Practitioner certification course for an offer rate of €795.These courses keep costs low by combining self-study with instructor-led tuition.
Verify is offering the same course at €695 as part of its Upskill Programme of professional development courses. The full price would normally be more than €1,100.

A spokesperson for Clear Learning, formerly known as Calyx Training, said it had also reduced its prices by up to 30 per cent to allow out-of-work IT professionals to attend courses.

Friars welcomed these moves, but said they would not be enough. “An IT professional, who is between jobs, still requires support to ensure that they are quickly returned to the workforce and continue to contribute their skills and expertise, so we would call on Fás to reinstate a funding programme for professional level courses as soon as possible,” he said.
Dr Bryan Fields, director of training services with Fás, said its change in strategy to focus on the long-term unemployed meant that self-employed IT contractors were not a priority group.

Around two thirds of Fás’s 600 free training courses cover IT subjects. The agency also operates a technical employment support grant (TESG) to fund people taking courses that aren’t available from Fás.

‘‘Some 11,000 people availed of this last year,” said Fields.
He also said Fás was addressing high-level skills and was in the process of developing a blended learning course in project management. Initially, this will be aimed at former Dell employees in Limerick who were made redundant last year.

The course will be free of charge to those still unemployed, but will not be exclusive to ex-Dell workers. ‘‘If we get a lot of interest, we would look at extending it,” said Fields.

He said Fás wanted to work with IT professionals who have recently been laid off. ‘‘If you have been let go from a company and haven’t had work for four or five months, we would be anxious to get you into a training course or night course,” he said.

Raekwon

Just to follow up on this thread that I created nearly a year ago.

I finally got the VMware training that I was looking for late last year through Sure Skills, who I have to say are the most reasonable and professional training providers in Dublin that I have come across. The trainer I had was excellent, the facilities were very good, we had complementary carvery lunch everyday in the Burlington Hotel & they even threw in the exam for free.

I did another course with them recently and the price was the lowest of all their competitors and the service was top notch again. I'd highly recommend them.

The worst I've dealt with was New Horizons. They point blankly refuse to match any of their competitors prices, their exams always cost extra and you have to get your own lunch. They probably still think that it is 2001 and that people have more money then sense. Luckily for them they are one of the very few public IT exam locations in Dublin as I doubt they would last otherwise with their attitude.

axer

Raekwon wrote: »

Just to follow up on this thread that I created nearly a year ago.

I finally got the VMware training that I was looking for late last year through Sure Skills, who I have to say are the most reasonable and professional training providers in Dublin that I have come across. The trainer I had was excellent, the facilities were very good, we had complementary carvery lunch everyday in the Burlington Hotel & they even threw in the exam for free.

I did another course with them recently and the price was the lowest of all their competitors and the service was top notch again. I'd highly recommend them.

The worst I've dealt with was New Horizons. They point blankly refuse to match any of their competitors prices, their exams always cost extra and you have to get your own lunch. They probably still think that it is 2001 and that people have more money then sense. Luckily for them they are one of the very few public IT exam locations in Dublin as I doubt they would last otherwise with their attitude.

Was it the VCP you did?
How much did it cost in total?

Raekwon

axer wrote: »

Was it the VCP you did?
How much did it cost in total?

Yeah it was the VCP 4 Fast Track course that I did.

It cost me €1,400 in total (down from €2,500) and the €195 exam fee was included as were lunches & manuals etc, but don't quote me on that because I had to negotiate really hard to get them down to that price and it was a last minute discount really.

zweton

€2100 i was quoted yesterday with sure skills(€2600 with commtech),the woman said to get in quick as places were going very quick! Are these places any good to negotiate?
I have heard good things about sure skills though.

Raekwon

Well the VCP 4/4.1 courses have a recommended retail price of €2,500 so if you pay any more then that then your being done, but if you read my earlier posts you will see that they will try to low ball you in regards to prices at every available opportunity.

In regards to negotiating, it took me four months of pretty much harassing them to get the price that I wanted. I rang and emailed them a few times per week from July until October until they finally caved in a gave me a place on their November course.

adeery

Raekwon wrote: »

Just to follow up on this thread that I created nearly a year ago.

I finally got the VMware training that I was looking for late last year through Sure Skills, who I have to say are the most reasonable and professional training providers in Dublin that I have come across. The trainer I had was excellent, the facilities were very good, we had complementary carvery lunch everyday in the Burlington Hotel & they even threw in the exam for free.

I did another course with them recently and the price was the lowest of all their competitors and the service was top notch again. I'd highly recommend them.

The worst I've dealt with was New Horizons. They point blankly refuse to match any of their competitors prices, their exams always cost extra and you have to get your own lunch. They probably still think that it is 2001 and that people have more money then sense. Luckily for them they are one of the very few public IT exam locations in Dublin as I doubt they would last otherwise with their attitude.

Hi Raekwon,

Just to be open on this one before I reply, I work for New Horizons and I do appreciate the feedback.

Regarding the training:
Yes specifically for VMware we are expensive as we are tied to VMware official pricing.

There are a few companies who can do official VMware in Ireland: Commtech, Global Knowledge, Sureskills and New Horizons. In Galway and Cork PFH.

If you are looking for a cheap deal on VMware training last minute is going to be the best way to get it regardless of the company delivering it.

Regarding the exams:
The only time we are more expensive for exams is if we book your exam for you, you can book it yourself over the phone or online you get the prices we pay.

VMware ,Oracle and Cisco: VUE
www.vue.com
1800 552 131

Microsoft, CompTIA, IBM: Prometric
www.prometric.com
1800 626 104

The above numbers only work from a landline but are free phone numbers.

The reason we are the only company delivering the exams publically in Dublin is that it’s not a money spinner, the reason we do it is that we have our own students going through our exam center anyway and there is not a much additional effort to allow external people book in online and attend the exams.

Raekwon

Hi adeery,

New Horizons are not listed as a VATC (VMware Authorised Training Centre) and neither are Global Knowledge as all of their courses are run in conjunction with Commtech. For the record, as far as I'm aware there are currently only 3 independent VATC's in Ireland (apart from VMware in Cork of course), they are Commtech, Sureskills & HP in Leixlip.

As for New Horizons' prices, I stand by my comments. I personally find New Horizons to be the most expensive training provider in Dublin and most of my past & present colleagues agree with me. I don't even find your prices competitive compared to say Sureskills, who go out of their way to accommodate their clients, especially during this economic crisis where training budgets have been slashed and disposable incomes have taken massive hits.

As for exam prices, unlike training prices, these are at a fixed rate and cannot be modified, they only modification in price is when you book with Person VUE as their prices do not include VAT so you need to add 21.5% onto the exam fee to get the total cost. So I'm not sure why you claim that exams are more expensive when you book them for a client, do you charge a fee to book an exam on somebodies behalf?

DublinWriter

www.theknowledgeacademy.com offer a 5-day PRINCE2 Foundation and Practitioner course in Belfast for £795, and in some other UK locations they offer it from as low as £525.

adeery

Anyone paying for a IT training course themselves should try and claim back tax on it.

Although VM training ain’t listed I think you might be able to get it back many other IT courses are listed.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/tuition-fees.html

adeery

Hi Raekwon
I am a bit bewildered by your last post, I agreed with every one of your points, but your focus seems to be to promotion of Sureskills and I understand that you did have a good experience with them but I 100% stand by my comments that people should contact as many different providers as possible, to get the best prices for whatever course they are looking for and that there are deals to be had for last minute training, similar to the deal you yourself got.

Only Sureskills and Commtech are the only providers that are described as independent VATC’s in Ireland.

HP and Global Knowledge and are part of a global networks and are registered as such outside of Ireland, specifically in the UK. In Ireland New Horizons are proud to partner with an Irish owned company for delivery of VMware training, Commtech as do several others training providers in Ireland.

I agreed with you that we are not the cheapest, but we are not the most expensive, in fact VMware themselves are the most expensive for training http://www.vmware.com/education, I did spend a bit of time contacting companies for prices, please PM me for the courses and providers I am happy to send over.

I must not have been clear in my last post, nobody should pay fees for the booking of exams on top of the list price, contacts below for booking both online and by phone, for exams at our center with no fees:

www.vue.com
1800 552 131

www.prometric.com
1800 626 104

We only charge a fee of €20 if we have to book an exam on someone’s behalf. Where does this fee come from? The majority is Credit Card fees (are on the total gross amount) both the persons taking the exam and when we book the exam on our credit card and the VAT on the Admin.

Raekwon

How can you be bewildered by somebody's post yet agree with all of their points? Surely it's either one or the other? Btw here is an example of a bewildering post:

adeery wrote: »

I must not have been clear in my last post, nobody should pay fees for the booking of exams on top of the list price.

adeery wrote: »

We only charge a fee of €20 if we have to book an exam on someone’s behalf.

Unlike yourself, I have absolutely no affiliation with any IT Training Provider and I am not trying to solely promote one of them. I have been working in the IT industry for over 6 years and have had been on several different training courses over the years and in my experience Sure Skills have been the best value & are easily the most accommodating Training Provider that I have come across. For the record, and in my experience, New Horizons were the most expensive and least accommodating swiftly followed by Global Knowledge & BT Training Solutions.

This is pretty much common knowledge within the IT community in Ireland, if your company is paying for courses it doesn't matter where you go for training, some places have great trainers others don't, it's a total gamble, but won't affect you financially. If you are contracting or simply self funded then stay away from the bigger international Training Providers because they have a tendency to over charge, as I'm sure other posters, who have received astronomical quotes in the past, will testify too. Yes you can get the tax back but why pay the ridiculously high prices in the first place when there is much better value to be had else where?

adeery

Tax back is for any IT Training course with any trainer, and they do not have to be listed on revenue, as far as I can make out from the revenue site.

Your bang on the bewildering exam booking situation, some people would rather have somebody go and do book their exam rather than calling the testing company and doing the same thing. Apologies if it sounds strange I don't understand myself why people still insist on doing it that way even when you tell them how to go and book the exam directly with VUE/Prometric.

I agree that official trianing is quite expensive for both contactors and small business and impossible for individuals not just in Ireland but worldwide. This is not helped by vendors VMware Cisco etc charging excessive ammounts for courseware and setting high class requirements.

greygeek

Its a disgrace that VMware need you to attend their training to take the exam, if the exam tested knowledge it should stand by itself without having to fork out a few grand for a 5 day course.

I don't know why employers put so much value in qualifications that seem to be designed to only put money in VMwares pockets and do not take into acccount hands on experience. At least with the Microsoft and Cisco you can get the cert with a bit of study and having hands on experience in the tech.

axer

greygeek wrote: »

Its a disgrace that VMware need you to attend their training to take the exam, if the exam tested knowledge it should stand by itself without having to fork out a few grand for a 5 day course.

I don't know why employers put so much value in qualifications that seem to be designed to only put money in VMwares pockets and do not take into acccount hands on experience.
At least with the Microsoft and Cisco you can get the cert with a bit of study and having hands on experience in the tech.

and you can get the cisco and ms certs by using braindumps too whereas with VMWare if you are going to spend one or two thousand on the qualification then more than likely you are just going to learn the stuff.