Farming In Ireland, what does the future hold?

Muckit

I was pondering the other day, as I often do, the whole beef sector as a whole in Ireland. It's common knowledge that, like most other farming sectors in Ireland, it's hard to make a good living from it. The stats show that the majority of farmers in the beef sector are now part time or 'hobby' farmers (I myself would fall into the latter).

Being a so called 'hobby' farmer myself, profit doesn't really come into it, it's more trying to produce good quality cattle and the pride and fulfillment associated with that. I've a good fulltime job and I thank God every day for having it!

But............. and it got me thinking.... by me going down this route, like so many more, and producing top quality beef for next to nothing, am I not crippling (albeit unintentionally) the fulltime beef farmer that's already working with tight margins, trying to earn a living?? :rolleyes:

My mind boggles to think how it will all end up if fulltime lads go bust and have to sell up or decide to move abroad before they do. It's already happening, but there is very little talk about all the serious lads that are leaving.

I hope people on here don't think I'm stirring things or scare mongering, just trying to see other lad's outlook or perspective on things. What do ye think?

Tora Bora

Muckit wrote: »

I was pondering the other day, as I often do, the whole beef sector as a whole in Ireland. It's common knowledge that, like most other farming sectors in Ireland, it's hard to make a good living from it. The stats show that the majority of farmers in the beef sector are now part time or 'hobby' farmers (I myself would fall into the latter).

Being a so called 'hobby' farmer myself, profit doesn't really come into it, it's more trying to produce good quality cattle and the pride and fulfillment associated with that. I've a good fulltime job and I thank God every day for having it!

But............. and it got me thinking.... by me going down this route, like so many more, and producing top quality beef for next to nothing, am I not crippling (albeit unintentionally) the fulltime beef farmer that's already working with tight margins, trying to earn a living?? :rolleyes:

My mind boggles to think how it will all end up if fulltime lads go bust and have to sell up or decide to move abroad before they do. It's already happening, but there is very little talk about all the serious lads that are leaving.

I hope people on here don't think I'm stirring things or scare mongering, just trying to see other lad's outlook or perspective on things. What do ye think?

Shure all the boyos on here, say they are not making a penny on farming.
That explains why they drive nice new fancy John Deere's, New Hollands, Masseys etc:P

reilig

Tora Bora wrote: »

Shure all the boyos on here, say they are not making a penny on farming.
That explains why they drive nice new fancy John Deere's, New Hollands, Masseys etc:P

Truth be told, most of the "boyos" on here have an off farm job or their partner has and the farm income is only secondary. Most people who will buy a fancy tractor, take out finance and pay it off over a couple of years and put each year's payment against tax in the same way that that corporate companies make investments to lower their tax bill. It doesn't mean that they're making a fortune off the land. The tax saving, lower repair bills, ability to do work that a contractor would normally do and FTS (First Turn Start) reliability can often leave as much or more money in your pocket as keeping the trusty MF165 that was first registered in 1968.

Some other people invest money from their off farm job into their machinery the same way that some business people invest in boats or fancy cars.

My point is that a farm does not have to be profitable for the farmer to be able to buy a new tractor.

The fact is that over 80% of farms in Ireland are giving farmers far far less of a salary than if they were on minimum wage in a 40 hour per week job.

pakalasa

If you ask me it is we, the part-time farmers, that have it easier. At least they dont have to worry about trying a turn a decent wage, and the constant mental strain that brings. The downside is that we work two jobs, and crazy hours. All my spare time and a lot of my holidays are taken up.

When full-time farms gets to a certain size, then an additional worker is needed, where often the case is that he/she earns more than the farmer himself.

The bottom line is that most farms in Ireland are not economically viable. Our history and all that, has led to a romantic attachment to land that no other country has. That said it is not easy walk away from it.

Username John

reilig wrote: »

Truth be told, most of the "boyos" on here have an off farm job or their partner has and the farm income is only secondary. Most people who will buy a fancy tractor, take out finance and pay it off over a couple of years and put each year's payment against tax in the same way that that corporate companies make investments to lower their tax bill. It doesn't mean that they're making a fortune off the land.

As a lot of people have farm income as secondary income, I think they re-invest a lot of the money they make back into the farm, to make their lives easier.
When faced with the choice of spending the money doing something you love, which will help you, or taking it and maybe paying almost half or it in tax, you can see why people go with the first option...

Muckit wrote: »

Being a so called 'hobby' farmer myself, profit doesn't really come into it, it's more trying to produce good quality cattle and the pride and fulfillment associated with that. I've a good fulltime job and I thank God every day for having it!

But............. and it got me thinking.... by me going down this route, like so many more, and producing top quality beef for next to nothing, am I not crippling (albeit unintentionally) the fulltime beef farmer that's already working with tight margins, trying to earn a living?? :rolleyes:

I know what yer saying - as probably a hobby farmer myself, farming is not my primary source of income. Then I can afford to produce animals for money which while still profitable, would not be enough for full time.

But - for me anyways - I would like to think that profit (of sorts) comes into it.

Yes its the pride and enjoyment in producing quality animals, but its also producing them in the best way, making the best use of the land that you have, producing them as good and as quick as anyone else can. (Not that I am doing this now mind you, its just what I want to do )

For me - the hobby aspect of it comes into being able to put what (if any) money you make, back into the farm. The profitability side determines how much I can put back in, and what changes I can make.

whelan1

Tora Bora wrote: »

Shure all the boyos on here, say they are not making a penny on farming.
That explains why they drive nice new fancy John Deere's, New Hollands, Masseys etc:P

i suspect they are few and far between tbh.... i have a 1991 case , a 00 new holland and a 98 jcb absolutely no prospects of upgrading in the next 3 years , havent a penny to my name and the bank man wont answer my phonecalls:mad: work 7 days a week with 3 young kids .... not looking good here , but what are the alternatives? i feel i am back in the situation my parents where in 25 years ago

Muckit

thanks for input guys.....but to get back to my original point........ would the likes of whelan1 etc be better make a living if all us 'hobby' farmers were out of the way?? Land for example is a mad price here if a fulltime farmer wants to expand and the returns from it are so poor that it would not pay to buy land anyways.

I suppose my original point is how can we go about making farming profitable on a fulltime basis? And will our agricultural industry be sustainable if it goes almost totally part time?? Even today just reading in farming indo how cowen reckons we can increase our agricultural exports!! How?? and who will it leave end up with the most money in their pockets??:rolleyes:

Sometimes (when I'm feeling really cynical:D) I feel the farmers journal and the likes are running a propaganda campiagn to keep parttime farmers and the likes producing top quality goods, for whom to benefit from?? It's certainly not the primary producer at the end of the day.....

denis086

on the land price side of things ive noticed a few acres going around locally for reasonable money compared to what would have been asked a few years ago. It really shows that the developers have gone or the bob the builders who want a field for a few poorly breed horses have no money to spend so maybe upsizing even just a small bit is possible for some at least now.
in relation to the prices factories are alway going to manipulate the market maybe in the next few years because of the amount of calves being exported will mean that the supply will be tight and at least we might have a few good years ???
and the farmers journal is definitely biased on almost every topic. We were only paying the contractor yesterday and we got talking about trailing shoes and onto derek caseys piece on the joskin tank the contractor asked if he would let him know when he had it to go have a look he had it for 3 days and they were stopped most of the 3 days because the maserator (hopefully spelled right) was blocked solid because of a design flaw yet derek casey went on to give it a glowing report. :rolleyes:

bbam

Muckit wrote: »

would the likes of whelan1 etc be better make a living if all us 'hobby' farmers were out of the way?? Land for example is a mad price here if a fulltime farmer wants to expand and the returns from it are so poor that it would not pay to buy land anyways.

It would be interesting to hear the fulltime farmers view on part-timers getting out of the business to make way for them... However I don't think it's the part-timer farmers who have driven the price of land up, surely that was the poxy developers.

I equally don't think that poor prices are a result of a large number of part-timers either.. Beef or milk prices are dictated downwards rather than set low from the producer..

whelan1

i think the thing with the land price is that people cant borrow money at the minute so whoever is buying the land has that cash at hand .... there are not many part time dairy farmers afaik , mainly beef/ suckler/sheep

massey woman

The cheque in the post is whats maintaining the partimer in the sector although prices are sh1te and margins slim the security of the direct debit from Europe somehow justifies staying on in the hope of better times
That is I believe the thinking of the older people in farming, many of whom havent spent last years direct payment I know quite a few!
The younger full time farmer is screwed by the industry who dictate prices be it milk ,beef or pork at the drop of a hat not to speak of the unavailability of credit from the banks and the environmental and legislative compliance imposed on them from Europe
I am amazed that so many accept no payment for their time
I mean who else would spend all their quality time working for free for the beef barons who screw you at the 1st opportunity
For the last 10 years people complained about the 'foreigners' working for small money taking native jobs but here we are being screwed by one of our own Larry
Until the compensation system is properly allocated to real farming families whose sole income is from farming and not 'landowners ' and co ops there will be fewer new entrants to the industry which is necessary for survival
I have no doubt but the part time farmer has a negative impact on the full time family farmers

Muckit

some very valid points massseywoman. The cheque in the post IMO, should only be looked on as the equivalent of a 'bonus' in business terms. 'Profit' then also should be that which is left over after 'farm wages' (What the hell are they I hear you ask?!:D) and investment monies are taken out of the equation.

Another pet niggle of mine is how 'profitability' (I use the term losely!!) in farming is valued in euros/hectare! Why?? For example it never mentions in the journal 'how much per week' is coming into a farming household on the case studies they pick of these so called BETTER farmers (as if the rest of us are just gob sh*tes, don't get me started!!:mad:)

Then what do lads think of this grange beef farm?? Here they'I talk have a TEAM of lads who'I have access to the latest info/resources and they'I manipulate the figures and poor Joe Bloggs will be asked to imulate this on his own and then feel like a failure when he can't reach the same figures or provide for his family.....

PHEW........Sorry for the rant folks..........:rolleyes:

bbam

massey woman wrote: »

I have no doubt but the part time farmer has a negative impact on the full time family farmers

Without meaning to be conrfrontational can I ask you how you see this?

We have a small enterprise which could never make a full time living for anybody, but I could never see it being sold out of the family either.

massey woman

From personal experience
People with off farm incomes have been able to buy land build sheds out bid ordinary farmers around the ring for springers etc
The co ops have increased their retail margins in their new shops aimed at the rural community with cash from off farm incomes
As a consequence of this the cash poor farmer is at a distinct disadvantage
I hope I dont sound begrudging I dont intend to but its reality as I see it

bbam

Thanks...
I'd question the point about the co-op's and land prices

Point made to me recently while in a similar conversation...

Full time farmers who chose not to develop off farm incomes are likely to continue to have a poor income as they are choosing to stay in a low margin low return on investment business.. So many folks are having to retrain at the moment as they're jobs are no longer there, maybe more Irish farmers need to do the same.
(this I will add isn't my view).

I think full time farming in some areas is possible but not in others. Counties with traditionally small holdings will continue to require off farm incomes. Farming income for our family is seen as a bonus on top of other earnings. We make sure our non farming income covers the bills and then take whatever happens after that..

Tora Bora

massey woman wrote: »

From personal experience
People with off farm incomes have been able to buy land build sheds out bid ordinary farmers around the ring for springers etc
The co ops have increased their retail margins in their new shops aimed at the rural community with cash from off farm incomes
As a consequence of this the cash poor farmer is at a distinct disadvantage
I hope I dont sound begrudging I dont intend to but its reality as I see it

1. Part time farmers outbidding full time farmers for springers etc, .... are you not forgetting that there is a big chance that the guy selling the springer is a full time farmer, and is benefiting from the part timer. I know many a full time farmer, who brings his weanlings to mart sales which are run in the evenings, Saturdays or bank holidays. Why ........ so they can benefit from the fact that there are more part timers around to compete for their stock.
2. Co Ops have increased margins in rural areas ......... dead right there. BUT that is not the fault of the part time farmer. I'm a part time farmer, and I know plenty more part time farmers who will not shop at the co op specifically because they are so expensive. There is far, far better value to be had in terms of buying farm inputs, than buying from the coops. Use your cheque book else where:cool:

bbam

How do you define full time farmer...

Is it a farm with no other income only from farming or would you consider one spouce a full time farmer if they work at nothing but the farm and the other half works??

nilhg

bbam wrote: »

How do you define full time farmer...

Is it a farm with no other income only from farming or would you consider one spouce a full time farmer if they work at nothing but the farm and the other half works??

This one always gets me, is a guard who is married to a nurse a part timer, or is his wife a part time nurse? This question get asked of no other profession.

vincenzolorenzo

bbam wrote: »

How do you define full time farmer...

Is it a farm with no other income only from farming or would you consider one spouce a full time farmer if they work at nothing but the farm and the other half works??

I think you'd have to define it as someone who farms while having a part-time job (or full time even) at the same time. What their spouse/partner does really doesn't come into it

bbam

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

I think you'd have to define it as someone who farms while having a part-time job (or full time even) at the same time. What their spouse/partner does really doesn't come into it

That's what I'd think as well