Gear Review

BigDuffman

Right, I havn't found a forum or other resource for getting peoples opinions on gear.

I'll get the ball rolling! Anyone have any experience with this BCD? Thinking of shelling out for one.

http://www.scuba.com/scuba-gear-3/006096/Mares-Icon-with-MRS-Plus-Weight-System.html

http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-mares-icon-bc-with-mrs-plus-weight-system-video-review-8109413.html

I've never used a rear inflation BCD. How do people find them in comparison to jackets?

hk

Wing style BCs are becoming popular and there are a few on the market. They offer a number of advantages over standard BCs, particularly a low profile in water to reduce drag, reduced clutter on the front which allows for more stream lined and clean gear configuration for reels, torches etc.

It has become quite common in recent times for recreational divers to adjust gear configuration from 'standard' type configurations to more technical diving type configurations. Some aspects of Technical diving configurations lend themselves quite well to the recreational environment, particularly the long hose concept. However sometimes its best to stick with what you know and at time recreational divers do not understand the reasons behind some styles of gear config or apply them wrongly.

Disadvantages of a wing style BC are primarily that they tend to put you in a face down position on the surface and require some getting use to and can cause discomfort initially. The biggest issue with this style of jacket is that it is not effective in keeping your face out of the water if consciousness is lost.

Furthermore 'light, ideal for travel BCs' tend to be just that, suitable for the occasional diver who dives while on holiday. I personally hold a little skepticism as to the suitability of such gear in holding up to the harsher Irish environment and to frequent use. I must say that I have no experience of this jacket in particular but have experience of similar jackets. I dont really see the point of these hybrid wing/BC designs other than some perceived cool factor, my advice, if you want a wing buy a wing, if you want a BC buy a BC, each have their own advantages but I fail to see the advantage of a hybrid of both.

Paddy Diver

What HK has said is all true. One the biggest points he's touched on is the discomfort they initially 'can' cause, they do take a bit of getting used too.

As for what you picked out, I wouldnt and the reasons are simple, the brand you've chosen has years of experience making recreational gear and have realised that people are more & more buying technical type equipment and have jumped on the wagon and produced equipment to suit the market, which is fine but does the equipment stand up to the conditions tech divers regularly fined themselves in and in my experience no it doesnt so if you want to buy something like a wing why not buy one that have proven itself over years with tech divers, like Custom Divers, OMS, DiveRite etc etc

These are just my experiences, I dive a wing for 90% of my dives and I use an OMS one

t1mm

The modular nature of a proper backplate/wing setup is also an advantage. If, for example, you decide to dive doubles, your existing wing (if it does not provide enough lift) can be upgraded with a larger one for a fraction of the cost of buying a whole new setup.

diveshark

http://www.scubapro.com/europe/uk/scubapro-products/buoyancy-compensators/back-flotation-jackets/knighthawk

have a full range, just another option.

BigDuffman

Thanks for all responses

At the moment I'm not planning to go Tec for quite some time (bank a/c still reeling from price of initial set up) so that means I am quite price sensitive to a high priced BCD. So I'm happy to go for a "travel friendly" number as long as it will stand up to some abuse over here too. The reason I picked this exact one as would be getting it second hand at a price and relatively unused.

diveshark

be careful as travel friendly and stand up to some abuse don't really go hand in hand!
You would be wise to spend the little more now to protect your investment.

good luck with the purchase.

hk

BigDuffman wrote: »

Thanks for all responses

At the moment I'm not planning to go Tec for quite some time (bank a/c still reeling from price of initial set up) so that means I am quite price sensitive to a high priced BCD. So I'm happy to go for a "travel friendly" number as long as it will stand up to some abuse over here too. The reason I picked this exact one as would be getting it second hand at a price and relatively unused.

Careful now, normally the most important advice I give regarding gear is that you really cannot afford to buy cheap gear. Not even mentioning the reliability/safety aspect, if you buy cheap you will end up replacing it and it always works out more expensive in the long run.
Obviously everyone has a budget and i would never suggest buying the most expensive gear available, but I would encourage a mid level type purchase or certainly one of the more expensive cheaper options, but rarely the cheapest, they always work out too expensive in the long run!!

Paddy Diver

hk wrote: »

they always work out too expensive in the long run!!

Never a truer word spoken

t1mm

"Buy your second set of gear first"

BigDuffman

Decided to go with the Mares. Its practicaly unused! Will test it out on sat. Next purchase is a dive computer (going to make severe dent in the savings as opposed to spreading it out as have lots of diving planned and don't want to be using rentals!).


Toss up between Suunto Vyper http://www.adventurediving.net/dive-computers-gauges/suunto-vyper.299.html

And:

Oceanic GEO

http://www.oceanicworldwide.com/p_computers_geo.html

Anyone using either of these?

t1mm

I've used my friend's Vyper for a few dives. Looks like a workhorse of a computer, its 3 or so years old now and its still in relatively good condition and working perfectly. Some say Suunto's algorithms are on the conservative side, I'm not sure about the statistics on that though. I plan to buy a Suunto D4 in the near future.

That site is quite expensive though. You'd save yourself a lot of money buying gear online, the Suunto Vyper on www.deepbluedive.com is 198sterling!

locum-motion

BigDuffman wrote: »

...
Toss up between Suunto Vyper http://www.adventurediving.net/dive-computers-gauges/suunto-vyper.299.html...

t1mm wrote: »

...That site is quite expensive though. You'd save yourself a lot of money buying gear online, the Suunto Vyper on www.deepbluedive.com is 198sterling!...

T1mm, you'll always be able to find things cheaper online than in a 'bricks and mortar' (or should that be 'log cabin'?) dive centre like Adventure Diving, but you do get that bit more for your money.

1. You can't walk in to www.deepbluedive.com and have a free tea or coffee, pick up the item you're interested in buying, hold it in your hands, try it on (OK, that bit doesn't apply to a computer, but it applies to suits/bcds etc), talk to an Instructor/DM about what you need and so on.

2. When you buy from a dive centre, you don't have to wait at home for the postman, or go to the depot to pick up an item that wouldn't fit through the letterbox.

3. When you buy from a dive centre, you've got after sales service. Something goes wrong, bring it back. Not so easy online.

4. Dive centres also organise diving days/trips, usually at very tight profit margins. They have to sell gear. If they don't, they go out of business. If they go out of business, who's going to organise the diving? (Not everyone wants to join a club). If every diver in the country bought all their gear online, the dive centres would go out of business, and those same divers would be saying "Ah, this is crap. Nobody runs boats to {insert name of favourite wreck/island here} anymore. Why is that?"

So, yes, it can be more expensive to buy from a dive centre than online, but the point I'm trying to make is that that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad value.
There's more to 'value' than 'price'.

It is oft said that the Government, particularly the Dept of Health and the HSE, know the price of everything, but the value of nothing. I'd hate to think that divers were the same.

Support your local dive centre, provided they are offering value to you.

And before anyone says "Ah, sure he must own a dive centre", I don't.
I'm a diver. I do nearly all my diving with Mark & Lesley @ Adventure Diving, have bought virtually all of my equipment from them, have done almost all of my courses with them, and am lucky enough to call them friends.
Have they made profits out of me? Yes, of course they have.
Do I feel like I've been ripped off? No, absolutely not.

hk

Nearly all modern computers should be suitable for use, there is little difference between them, I would strongly advise looking at one which handles recreational nitrox mixes, up to 40%. Nitrox is becomingly increasingly popular as a replacement to air due to the safety margins it use builds into a dive. Trust me, at some stage you are going to want to do a nitrox course if you have not already.

Secondly, I would advise a little research into the algorithm being used by the manufacturer. Most are buhlman, same as standard tables, I would recommend sticking to it. Other computers can use either RGBM or VPM B and I would advise staying away from them. VPM B is actually called that because VPM bent so many people, the next version they had the cheek to call plan B.

Stunto use RGBM if my memory serves me right, this was a model devised by the american tec diver bruce winkie, its based on minimizing bubble growth during ascent and the maths do stack up, problem is the maths would have you in the water for hours for any normal dive so it was played around with to give more realistic times based upon what is considered normal for a particular dive. Problem I have with it is that when it was tweaked it was in no way based upon the original theory or maths!



I know a lot of people dive on RGBM and VPM algorithms but I personally recommend reading up on what you may let yourself in for and judge the risks accordingly. May opinion is to stick to the tried and tested bulhman algorithm and I do know that Uwatec use this method and I have owned several Uwatec computers and can recommend them as a brand


PS I dive a VR3 at the min, using the Bulhman algorithm only, its probably a little expensive for your needs though!!

t1mm

locum-motion - I appreciate your post - it is a well known fact that online businesses can reduce prices by excluding rent, substantial staff, and electricity costs among other things. My post was not meant to discourage people from buying their gear at dive centres; my apologies if it appeared that way! Unfortunately my student budget cannot support the after sale service and support they offer so I generally research and buy my gear online.

tedshredsonfire

Have the D4 mainly for freediving but had the vyper before that. I cant see suunto knocked for using rgbm for recreational diving once you get technichal I have no idea but there are enough sunnto machines out there in scuba land and its not like loads of people using them are getting bent.
I agree nitrox will pobably only get more popular but cant see very high mixes being used by rec scubies but any computer should be able to handle nitrox mixes now.

BigDuffman

Thanks for advice (and I do try buy local in order to have hands on a product before I hand over).

I'm only going to be doing recreational diving, I've done nitrox course but from the looks of it both models can handle most of the mixes that will be thrown at it. I'm not going to be doing any super deep tec dives! Hmmm with regards to algorithims would that be a huge consideration for a non tec recreational diver?

The GEO seems to get the upper hand slightly?

tedshredsonfire

Duffman thats my point alg do not have to be complicated for rec diving imho and on most Sunnto models you can add a degree of caution by choosing a model of 1-3 of how conservative you want it to be.
On buhlman tables afaik they were designed with navy seals level of fitness in mind which is not the same as your average bacon sambo eating Irish diver so would need a larger degree of conservatism added but I am open to correction on this.
I gave up on tables a few years ago.

hk

BigDuffman wrote: »

I'm not going to be doing any super deep tec dives! Hmmm with regards to algorithims would that be a huge consideration for a non tec recreational diver?

I was still talking about recreational diving, while the issue becomes more important the deeper you dive, the algorithms as still the algorithms and some rec computers differ in the no stop times they provide. Its true that Stunto computers are widely used and do not result in mass cases of bends. However its quite possible to dive within the limits and still get bent and my point is that I prefer the Buhlman algorithm as its tried and tested and you know what your getting. At the end of the day I have seen two computers differ by three min or more on a dive and those three moin could make a big difference some day.



Sorry I dont mean to be too technical and dont want to confuse any new divers, but I feel its an important consideration in all types of diving and is often over looked


PS US Navy tables are based on Haldane's early work and were around before Buhlmann published his algorithm, US Navy tables were designed for fit working divers with an accepted level of DCS, in the order of 2% if i remember correctly, this allowed greater efficiencies, getting divers out of the water faster and I someone got bent they always had a chamber on site. The Buhlmann algorithm is much more conservative than the US Navy tables.

tedshredsonfire

Thanks hk wasn't sure of that I have seen computers differ widely and in the club on a stop we always waited for the slowest but can some of that not be put down to the level of profile that has been entered at the start by the user ie 1-3?

hk

Yes that can be based on conservative settings but, even with the settings the question, what are they based on is still valid. I know im nit picking but you would be surprised how some of the now accepted algorithms are not really based on either the maths or rigorous testing. Granted the margins im talking about are small, but to some diver some day the margins could make the difference.

beachrunner

Totally agree with diveshark...spend a bit more now

loctite

Sorry didn't see this post earlier........

I use a Mares jacket, have had it for about 8-9 years and its a work horse, but I'm afraid to say that the integrated weight systems on those jackets, (and tbh on pretty much all the Mares jackets in the last 5-6 years are pretty bad)

They are very flimsy and not to be trusted with any significant amounts of weight. I have seen several of these jackets loose their pouches. My 2c on the Mares and I am a fan of their gear.

As for the computer, no questions, the Suunto Vyper. But you should def check out Irish stores. I've seen them go for around 229 on Irish sites such as First4Scuba and Oceanlife. At £168 is cost of delivery included out of curiosity?

Anyway, you'll get the Suunto Zoop (I think thats what it is called) for about 200 euro and its pretty much the same as the Vyper now anyway.

loctite

Sorry just after re-reading a previous post there, £198 on Deep Blue, going by XE rates on www.xe.com that's working out more expensive than prices I have seen the computer for in Irish stores.

loctite

hk wrote: »

Nearly all modern computers should be suitable for use, there is little difference between them, I would strongly advise looking at one which handles recreational nitrox mixes, up to 40%. Nitrox is becomingly increasingly popular as a replacement to air due to the safety margins it use builds into a dive. Trust me, at some stage you are going to want to do a nitrox course if you have not already.

Secondly, I would advise a little research into the algorithm being used by the manufacturer. Most are buhlman, same as standard tables, I would recommend sticking to it. Other computers can use either RGBM or VPM B and I would advise staying away from them. VPM B is actually called that because VPM bent so many people, the next version they had the cheek to call plan B.

Stunto use RGBM if my memory serves me right, this was a model devised by the american tec diver bruce winkie, its based on minimizing bubble growth during ascent and the maths do stack up, problem is the maths would have you in the water for hours for any normal dive so it was played around with to give more realistic times based upon what is considered normal for a particular dive. Problem I have with it is that when it was tweaked it was in no way based upon the original theory or maths!



I know a lot of people dive on RGBM and VPM algorithms but I personally recommend reading up on what you may let yourself in for and judge the risks accordingly. May opinion is to stick to the tried and tested bulhman algorithm and I do know that Uwatec use this method and I have owned several Uwatec computers and can recommend them as a brand


PS I dive a VR3 at the min, using the Bulhman algorithm only, its probably a little expensive for your needs though!!

Dude, the Aladdin Pro's are one of the least conservative computers on the Planet. I'd dive a Suunto any day before using an Uwatec again.