Time Trialling

lamai

Just after my 3rd Triathlon at the weekend. And I have another coming up at the start of September. Any advice on how I can improve my times. Distance for the bike is 20k. I have a road bike with time trial bars, and I also have an indoor bike trainer to clip my bike into. should I just get out and do loads of miles on the bike or should I do some intervals? I do around 27mins for 10miles TT at the moment.

on_the_nickel

I'm sure you will get a lot more precise advice from others, but as someone who isn't in a club, and is far from scientific in his approach, miles show definite improvements.

I have a 33k loop that I was doing in around 1:12/13 last summer.

This year, I have been doing nothing differently except I started doing one long ride a week. I went from 60k at the start of May to over 100k to doing the ROK and now I consider the 33k loop a "short spin" for weekday evening.

Lap time as of last Monday was 1:07:05, and the last half of that was in the p!ssing rain.

Lumen

Intensity matters.

Do 30mins at race pace twice a week (with structured warm up and gentle cool down), with a third long ride (3-4 hours) at easy pace.

You may have capacity for more than this, depending on fitness and age.

For more detail, pick up a copy of Joe Friel's bible. I think he does a tri-specific one.

mo_bhicycle

lamai wrote: »

Any advice on how I can improve my times. Distance for the bike is 20k. I have a road bike with time trial bars

How diligent are you at using the TT bars during the triathlons?
I see quite a lot of triathletes with all the gear on their bike but they stop using it and move to the hoods or top of the handlebars when they get tired or it's windy.

mloc123

Whats your run off the bike like? Pace compared to a straight 5k? Alot of people focus on the bike and overcook it, it could be easier to make up time on the run.

tunney

lamai wrote: »

Just after my 3rd Triathlon at the weekend. And I have another coming up at the start of September. Any advice on how I can improve my times. Distance for the bike is 20k. I have a road bike with time trial bars, and I also have an indoor bike trainer to clip my bike into. should I just get out and do loads of miles on the bike or should I do some intervals? I do around 27mins for 10miles TT at the moment.

Not really enough information to make a helpful comment.

How long are you cycling?
Whats your weekly mileage?
Do you use training aids? HRM, PM etc
What are your limiters? Endurance, strength, speed etc.

Quigs Snr

I wouldn't be a TT expert, but equipment and position matter. Assuming that is all fine then as Lumen said, intensity matters. I started doing a couple of TT's in the last couple of weeks and have not trained specifically for them yet, but a rider I know who is quite strong does threshold intervals e.g. 3 sets of 3mins with 2-3 mins between reps, relax for 10 mins then do the same set another couple of times..

Another thing is to go for 2 hr rides around on rolling or even hilly roads stuck in the aero bars. Getting used to it, even up decent hills, just to get you used to pushing the power in that position. I have been told that will also help. Although that might be just for me because I apparently ride a TT like a road race charging up the hills out of the saddle even if they are only small inclines.

A lot of the local Triathletes train with us all winter though and they tend to be the best in their club, so Mileage certainly seems to matter as well. I presume that much like road racing, you need to lay down a strong base if you are to build on it with intense efforts closer to and during race season.

lamai

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

How diligent are you at using the TT bars during the triathlons?
I see quite a lot of triathletes with all the gear on their bike but they stop using it and move to the hoods or top of the handlebars when they get tired or it's windy.

I can keep down on the bars, maybe pop up the odd time, but I am not to bad

lamai

mloc123 wrote: »

Whats your run off the bike like? Pace compared to a straight 5k? Alot of people focus on the bike and overcook it, it could be easier to make up time on the run.

currently around about 17.30mins for 5k

mloc123

lamai wrote: »

currently around about 17.30mins for 5k

off the bike?

lamai

tunney wrote: »

Not really enough information to make a helpful comment.

How long are you cycling? Cycling about 1.5 years,

Whats your weekly mileage? Weekly mileage is all over the place but I say about. 40 mile a week. That would include a 10 mile time trial and brick sessions.

Do you use training aids? HRM, PM etc No training aids, but I have a HR monitor that I could use

What are your limiters? Endurance, strength, speed etc. Speed I would say, If someone goes, a lot of the time I just cannot keep there speed and I drop off. I am 5'9" and 10.5 stone, on a flat TT track I don't excel, but throw in a few hills and I seem to take more time of others.

.

lamai

mloc123 wrote: »

off the bike?

Yes, I have not really done a straight 5k in a while, but I was under 18 when I did, but my running has improved since then

lamai

Lumen wrote: »

Intensity matters.

Do 30mins at race pace twice a week (with structured warm up and gentle cool down), with a third long ride (3-4 hours) at easy pace.

You may have capacity for more than this, depending on fitness and age.

For more detail, pick up a copy of Joe Friel's bible. I think he does a tri-specific one.

Will do thanks mate:)

tunney

lamai wrote: »

How long are you cycling? Cycling about 1.5 years,

Whats your weekly mileage? Weekly mileage is all over the place but I say about. 40 mile a week. That would include a 10 mile time trial and brick sessions.

Do you use training aids? HRM, PM etc No training aids, but I have a HR monitor that I could use

What are your limiters? Endurance, strength, speed etc. Speed I would say, If someone goes, a lot of the time I just cannot keep there speed and I drop off. I am 5'9" and 10.5 stone, on a flat TT track I don't excel, but throw in a few hills and I seem to take more time of others.

Mileage is very low. I would venture a guess the limiters are endurance, and strength given the TT versus hills comment.

A more scientific approach to training and proper use of the turbo and HRM would be my prescription. With some more mileage thrown in and sport specific resistance training. (on the bike)

lamai

tunney wrote: »

Mileage is very low. I would venture a guess the limiters are endurance, and strength given the TT versus hills comment.

A more scientific approach to training and proper use of the turbo and HRM would be my prescription. With some more mileage thrown in and sport specific resistance training. (on the bike)

Thanks for the reply. With the Turbo should I do some resistance stuff, Like 2 mins flat out 3 recovery etc. for about 30 mins?

Might see If I can throw in an easyish 50 miler a week as well, if I can get the time

Lumen

lamai wrote: »

With the Turbo should I do some resistance stuff, Like 2 mins flat out 3 recovery etc. for about 30 mins?

If you can do six flat-out 2 min intervals in one session you're a better cyclist than most. What you're describing is more like anaerobic intervals.

You need to be training for sustained periods of high intensity steady state aerobic effort. The purpose of recovery in these longer intervals is not to "pay off the oxygen debt" (however you wish to describe it) but to give your mind a rest from the suffering.

Basically, training should be specific for your event. The long slow stuff is to adapt your body to time on the bike, the shorter periods of suffering are to increase your aerobic capacity.

The "gold standard" is 2 or 3 sets of 20 minute intervals at lactate threshold, or one hour of continuous effort if you're completely mental. You will probably need to build up to this.

tunney

lamai wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. With the Turbo should I do some resistance stuff, Like 2 mins flat out 3 recovery etc. for about 30 mins?

Might see If I can throw in an easyish 50 miler a week as well, if I can get the time

Thats more of a speed session really. And at that not a great one.

I suppose your question is better asked as two questions:
What can I do to improve my bike splits for this year?
and
What can I do to improve my bike splits for next year?

For this year. Not much really. The season is almost over and any training effect takes at least two weeks to be absorbed.

For next year. Alot. Structured training that address your limiters.

lamai

tunney wrote: »

Thats more of a speed session really. And at that not a great one.

I suppose your question is better asked as two questions:
What can I do to improve my bike splits for this year?
and
What can I do to improve my bike splits for next year?

For this year. Not much really. The season is almost over and any training effect takes at least two weeks to be absorbed.

For next year. Alot. Structured training that address your limiters.

Do you think it is pointless of me putting in around 120-150 miles a week, between now and the start of September to improve my TT times for September? The whole point of me asking is that I would like to knock of between 30 secs and a min in my 20k cycle for the Triathlon

Murph100

Not pointless at all, but you need to make a training plan and stick to it.

As Lumen said 2 X 20 mins at LT twice a week, with some decent mileage at the weekends would do a lot, but you'll need a HR monitor at the very least to do this.

Again as Lumen said, Joe Friel is yer man for making training plans.

lamai wrote: »

Do you think it is pointless of me putting in around 120-150 miles a week, between now and the start of September to improve my TT times for September? The whole point of me asking is that I would like to knock of between 30 secs and a min in my 20k cycle for the Triathlon

tunney

lamai wrote: »

Do you think it is pointless of me putting in around 120-150 miles a week, between now and the start of September to improve my TT times for September? The whole point of me asking is that I would like to knock of between 30 secs and a min in my 20k cycle for the Triathlon

Four or five solid structured weeks would be a benefit.

Whats the triathlon?

If all you want is 30-60 seconds then tweak your position and attack corners more aggressively.

lamai

tunney wrote: »

Four or five solid structured weeks would be a benefit.

Whats the triathlon? sprint Triathlon Lough key Roscommon

If all you want is 30-60 seconds then tweak your position and attack corners more aggressively.

yeah I will need to look into getting myself set up properly on the bike. Never thought about the corners, but I could shave

and few secs by learning how to take them faster

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

If all you want is 30-60 seconds then tweak your position and attack corners more aggressively draft

Edited for realism.

DirkVoodoo

Lumen wrote: »

If you can do six flat-out 2 min intervals in one session you're a better cyclist than most. What you're describing is more like anaerobic intervals.

You need to be training for sustained periods of high intensity steady state aerobic effort. The purpose of recovery in these longer intervals is not to "pay off the oxygen debt" (however you wish to describe it) but to give your mind a rest from the suffering.

Basically, training should be specific for your event. The long slow stuff is to adapt your body to time on the bike, the shorter periods of suffering are to increase your aerobic capacity.

The "gold standard" is 2 or 3 sets of 20 minute intervals at lactate threshold, or one hour of continuous effort if you're completely mental. You will probably need to build up to this.

Might hire you for coaching in the winter!

buzzingnoise

Murph100 wrote: »

Not pointless at all, but you need to make a training plan and stick to it.

As Lumen said 2 X 20 mins at LT twice a week, with some decent mileage at the weekends would do a lot, but you'll need a HR monitor at the very least to do this.

Again as Lumen said, Joe Friel is yer man for making training plans.

Listen to murph, in the real world he's a time trial legend.

Look at your swim, if you are working too hard in the water, both bike and run will suffer.

In addition to murphs advice if its only 30-60 seconds you are after, target transitions. cutting the wetsuit short or leaving the shoes on bike are massive time savers. literally any time you are standing still, ie changing wetsuit, putting on bike shoes etc is lost time.

lamai

Murph100 wrote: »

Not pointless at all, but you need to make a training plan and stick to it.

As Lumen said 2 X 20 mins at LT twice a week, with some decent mileage at the weekends would do a lot, but you'll need a HR monitor at the very least to do this.

Again as Lumen said, Joe Friel is yer man for making training plans.

HR monitor is broke, and I cannot afford a new one for the moment. Training at LT for 2 sets of 20 mins, Forgive me ignorance, but could I just go as hard as I could for each set, would that be close or be in the LT zone?

lamai

buzzingnoise wrote: »

Listen to murph, in the real world he's a time trial legend.

Look at your swim, if you are working too hard in the water, both bike and run will suffer.

In addition to murphs advice if its only 30-60 seconds you are after, target transitions. cutting the wetsuit short or leaving the shoes on bike are massive time savers. literally any time you are standing still, ie changing wetsuit, putting on bike shoes etc is lost time.

Well I would like to cut more but I am trying to be realistic, Yeah I am going to have my transitions sorted by September, no point in killing myself training to make 30secs and then lose it in transition

Murph100

Nope, because you'll be training way above your LT.

My LTHR is 170 bpm, so I'm aiming to keep between 170 & 173 bpm when doing 2 X 20s

My average heart rate on a 10 Mile TT is 179bpm, everytime !!

My max heart rate is 192 bpm.

So you can see there is a big difference between going flat out and holding LT.

Also chances are, if you do 2 sessions of 2 X 20s a week flat out, combined with your other training, you wont recover properly and burn out.




.

lamai wrote: »

HR monitor is broke, and I cannot afford a new one for the moment. Training at LT for 2 sets of 20 mins, Forgive me ignorance, but could I just go as hard as I could for each set, would that be close or be in the LT zone?

buzzingnoise

lamai wrote: »

Well I would like to cut more but I am trying to be realistic, Yeah I am going to have my transitions sorted by September, no point in killing myself training to make 30secsand then lose it in transition

you only lose time if you fail to improve.
you're obviously very fit, your run split is very impressive, which leads me to believe that your bike split is also very good. knocking a minute of two off your bike split or indeed your run could take ages or worse still push you into the deep water of over-training. all i'm saying is that in an afternoon you could literally knock a minute or two off your combined transition time for free and thats before you factor in an improved bike split.
Have you looked at obvious things like chainring size and cassette ratios?
a friend of mine says "you only need one gear for TT (the 55-10) but you need balls to stay in it".

Murph100

Wouldn't be much left of yer nuts after mashing that gear for 20K

buzzingnoise wrote: »

a friend of mine says "you only need one gear for TT (the 55-10) but you need balls to stay in it".

lamai

buzzingnoise wrote: »

you only lose time if you fail to improve.
you're obviously very fit, your run split is very impressive, which leads me to believe that your bike split is also very good. knocking a minute of two off your bike split or indeed your run could take ages or worse still push you into the deep water of over-training. all i'm saying is that in an afternoon you could literally knock a minute or two off your combined transition time for free and thats before you factor in an improved bike split.
Have you looked at obvious things like chainring size and cassette ratios?
a friend of mine says "you only need one gear for TT (the 55-10) but you need balls to stay in it".

My bike part is average, put me in a field of good cyclists and I get to see lots of nice bikes passing me:mad: I've seen a jump in my bike in the last triathlon, but I still need to improve. running seems to come naturally and seems to be improving.

No, But I had a guy explain it to me one day, he may as well being talking chinese:D . I'll look into that also.

tunney

buzzingnoise wrote: »

you only lose time if you fail to improve.
you're obviously very fit, your run split is very impressive, which leads me to believe that your bike split is also very good. knocking a minute of two off your bike split or indeed your run could take ages or worse still push you into the deep water of over-training. all i'm saying is that in an afternoon you could literally knock a minute or two off your combined transition time for free and thats before you factor in an improved bike split.
Have you looked at obvious things like chainring size and cassette ratios?
a friend of mine says "you only need one gear for TT (the 55-10) but you need balls to stay in it".

Lord knows I'm a hater of gay ratios but moving signifcantly at this time would be at best a waste of money, at worst counter productive. The OP has a optimal cadence for power production, albeit self selected, moving to a lower cadence may not result in higher power. And moving to a bigger gear with the same cadence may completely bork the OP for the run.

Regarding the run split - is that off the bike or straight. If off the bike it would suggest a well paced bike and not sure that should be messed with.

Lumen

buzzingnoise wrote: »

a friend of mine says "you only need one gear for TT (the 55-10) but you need balls to stay in it".

You can get a 10? (googles....) Hey, you can even get a 9, apparently.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of the 12-21 cassette on my disc. It feels really nice having tiny jumps all the way through.

lamai

tunney wrote: »

Lord knows I'm a hater of gay ratios but moving signifcantly at this time would be at best a waste of money, at worst counter productive. The OP has a optimal cadence for power production, albeit self selected, moving to a lower cadence may not result in higher power. And moving to a bigger gear with the same cadence may completely bork the OP for the run.

Regarding the run split - is that off the bike or straight. If off the bike it would suggest a well paced bike and not sure that should be messed with.

Off the bike

velo.2010

Sorry to hijack this thread, but thanks to those at tonite's TT for the feedback.

Apparently as I wasn't flat on my back or just in bits after the TT I didn't try hard enough. Felt like I did but was seriously hampered by my ar$e giving out after 10km.

My set-up is letting me down. Saddle should have been forward a little more as I was pulling myself into something approaching a TT position. Moreover my front-end on the bike is too high. I can lower the stack height in time but must also consider some decent aero-bars. I could see how guys were able to pull on the bars on the downstroke of the pedal. Some lovely bikes there tonight. Lumen's PX is pretty neat. Cool Cervelo there also. Cheers.

ps time was 1:08, (ithink)

Diarmuid

did a 1:01:58 myself. The clip-on bars help.

niceonetom

Diarmuid wrote: »

did a 1:01:58 myself. The clip-on bars help.

Good time there. Well done.

Planet X

Diarmuid wrote: »

did a 1:01:58 myself. The clip-on bars help.

That's a brilliant time.

51 yrs. young and I got a 1:03:30 this year and am well happy with my time. PB.
I would be a guy with full kit.

Actually, guy Sorretno Club mate, beat me by a second.............on a regular bike.
Alot younger / fitter.

Hey.........

Diarmuid

252W , 175bpm and 39kph average for the 40k. I made the out leg in about 30:30, I though I could go sub 1 hr but it was a slower run home. First time I've done something like that. It's tough.