Disciplinary Warning - "Expired" v Removed

expired2010

Got a first verbal warning, with a written record of it in April 2008.

Written confirmation stated:

"It will be recorded in your personnel record and will remain there for six months"

Got a final written warning in July 2008

Written confirmation stated:

"This warning will stay on your record for two years"

Previous Boss had it in for me. I know, I know, they all say that, but seriously, he did. Not sure why. In fact, after the Final Written Warning, I got another job, handed in notice, and senior management convinced me to stay as they didn't want me to go, so I stayed, and previous boss went. Read into that what you will.... As it's all done and dusted, I may get in touch with him to try and understand what his issue was. If it's something I did, (or didn't do), then I'd like to understand the issue. After team meetings, colleagues used to ask what did I do to annoy him, as he seemed to have it in for me. Then, as soon as a chance arose, he tried getting me fired, hence the above situations.... Anyway....

So, as these have now both had the relevant time elapsed, and given the fact that I've never had such issues before in my 15 year career, I asked HR to confirm that they have been removed from my file and that there was no further negative disciplinary items on my file.

The response from HR, was that my "warnings have now expired". To me, that reads as though they are remaining on my file.

Having done a little research, I can find a lot of references to UK Tribunals where related expired warnings can be taken into account, and even though I have not had any issues in past two years, have a new boss, and don't think anything like what happened will happen again..... I am keen to have my record completely clean.

The warnings I received explicitly stated that they would be removed, the exact language is above.

Would I be wrong to go back to HR and state the quotes above, and ask for confirmation that they have been removed, not expired?

I understand after searching the net, that if similar offences are committed, even though they are expired/removed then they could be taken into account in future disciplinaries. (UK Law references)

Any help, guidance, gratefully appreciated.

Cheers


Expired2010 (Hopefully changing to Removed2010 soon)

bbam

While the warning would expire the records of it would remain on your record.

It means that no further action can be taken on the back of the warning rather than the paperwork would be taken out and shredded..

I've had files stuffed full of these things but once they are expired there dead..

expired2010

bbam wrote: »

While the warning would expire the records of it would remain on your record.

Despite the languages used in the warnings?

"It will be recorded in your personnel record and will remain there for six months"

"This warning will stay on your record for two years"

Surely this implies they will not be there after stated period?

Thanks

Expired2010

techyness

I'm not sure they can just shred things from your record. However they cannot act on lapsed warnings nor can they use warnings to reprimand you over something unrelated. The whole procedure has to start over - verbal, written etc. The procedures are there to protect you and employer. Look at code SI 146 - its about disciplinary procedures http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/si/0146.html. Have you tried contacting NERA with your questions? http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/aboutnera/informationservices/

Nody

expired2010 wrote: »

Despite the languages used in the warnings?

"It will be recorded in your personnel record and will remain there for six months"

"This warning will stay on your record for two years"

Surely this implies they will not be there after stated period?

Thanks

Expired2010

Actually I'd be very surprised if they would be allowed to remove them from a legal point of view. The company would need to be able to defend any previous action they took against you during employement in court and hence the documentation would be required to be kept on file for that reason. The only thing is that the warning is no longer "active"; even though it is still on file. It is merely there for archive purposes.

cronos

Out of interest if you disagree with a warning what comeback do you have. Dont have one myself but always wondered what would happen if you had an incompetent boss who gave one of these.

bbam

cronos wrote: »

Out of interest if you disagree with a warning what comeback do you have. Dont have one myself but always wondered what would happen if you had an incompetent boss who gave one of these.

You could follow the company appeals process if there is one... If it's a small company you may just put up with it..
A good manager will have a water tight case and a bad manager's warning should be easily overturned.. The problem is often the employee doesn't know the difference and appeals anyway..

Nody

cronos wrote: »

Out of interest if you disagree with a warning what comeback do you have. Dont have one myself but always wondered what would happen if you had an incompetent boss who gave one of these.

In most companies a warning has to be approved by HR before going through but even so you can appeal the outcome. Who you appeal to vary as per policy of company but usually head of HR / Highest local manager or similar and there are usually certain rules around the appeal (i.e. has to be in writing or present new evidence or what ever else).

the_syco

expired2010 wrote: »

As it's all done and dusted, I may get in touch with him to try and understand what his issue was. If it's something I did, (or didn't do), then I'd like to understand the issue.

Take it from someone who once went down this road with a friend/enemy: sometimes there wasn't a reason, or it's so bloody stupidly retarded, that you think you would've been better off not knowing.

chappy

As previously stated from a legal standing all HR documents must be kept on file. At no time can your previous warnings be used against you to go to the next step of disciplinary...

cronos

chappy wrote: »

As previously stated from a legal standing all HR documents must be kept on file. At no time can your previous warnings be used against you to go to the next step of disciplinary...

Could be used against you for promotions though.

compo1

AFAIK, once a warning has expired, a subsequent offence must result in another "1st verbal warning". These warnings, once expired, are archived along with the evidence. This is in case of legal proceedings later where reference to the incident would be part of the case.
Expired warnings cannot be used against an employee.

Eoin

The law only recommends that a disciplinary procedure is put in place. Some government department might even provide a framework that some industries adopt. But apart from that, it's up to the company to define the procedure. I'd be surprised if there was any specific provisions in employment law about when warnings can or can't be used?

JonnyTwoCombs

eoin wrote: »

The law only recommends that a disciplinary procedure is put in place. Some government department might even provide a framework that some industries adopt. But apart from that, it's up to the company to define the procedure. I'd be surprised if there was any specific provisions in employment law about when warnings can or can't be used?

The law not only recommends it, but demands it.

Industrial Relations Act, 1990 (Code Of Practice On Grievance & Disciplinary Procedures) (Declaration) Order, 2000, SI 146.

This sets out to define the main elements of 'natural justice' or fair procedure.

Among other items covered, it also recommends the removal of warnings from an employee's file and a defined time.

Although, the act is only a guideline, employers would do well to adhere to the provisions of it, as all too often the Labour Court or other industrial relations bodies read it as LAW.

See link >>>> http://www.siptu.ie/YourRights/TUFGuideToLabourLaw/TerminationofEmployment/CodeOfPractice-GrievanceDisciplinaryProcedure/

Eoin

I've read a little about that, but terms like recommendations, guidelines etc don't sound too definitive.