Direct Dublin connection for Clonmel

Marc M

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Yes I have often wondered why this logical step of making Clonmel more directly connected to Dublin is never really considered? That is the one town down there which could save the entire route. Why can't they run a direct Clonmel Dublin serivce via Waterford. Clonmel is much bigger than Sligo.

Would not have to worry about Waterford-Rosslare closing then.

What would be the lilkeyhood of reopening the Thurles to Clonmel railway, to give the railway a direct route to Clonmel from the Dublin to Cork mainline? There seems to be little information on the internet about this old line but from what I can find suggests that the trackbed is fairly well intact.

Does anyone have a view on the relative benefits as compared to whether it would be cheaper/more beneficial to just rebuild Limerick Junction to allow for a direct curve from the mainline to the Limerick to Waterford line to achieve a direct dublin connection for Clonmel.

It does seem ludicrous that a town the size of Clonmel has such few trains an hour and such poor public transport connections to Dublin!

T Corolla

Why do'nt the operate a Galway-Limerick-Waterford service this would have a good number of passengers. I think it is ridicilous that the train does not go from city to city. Is there a campaign ongoing to have this implemented.

Cool Mo D

At the very least a direct Limerick - Waterford service. Limerick Junction is in the middle of no-where and has rubbish connections with long waits.

Partizan

A lack of a Sunday service is killing the Limerick Junction - Waterford - Rosslare line. This needs to be looked asap.

When was the last time there were Sunday services on this line?

KC61

There is no point in offering Limerick-Waterford services without connections from Dublin and Cork at Limerick Junction. They provide much of the passengers on the route.

The real problem is that the speed restrictions on the Dublin/Cork line at present mean that Corkbound and Dublinbound trains on that line do not pass Limerick Junction at the same time. For any sort of meaningful service to be offered on the regional routes that disparity needs to be addressed so that passengers do not have interminable waits at Limerick Junction.

At present the long wait at Limerick Junction is caused by the need to connect into the Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin trains. Cork/Dublin services call at Limerick Junction at approximately XX:26 and Dublin/Cork services at anything from XX:40 to XX:51. That realistically causes a minimum 25 minute wait for through Limerick/Waterford and v.v. passengers. And that wait will remain until the speed restrictions on the main Dublin/Cork line north of Limerick Junction remain in place. Ideally up services would continue to call at Limerick Junction at XX:26 and down services advanced to XX:33 thereby reducing the wait for Limerick/Waterford services to a maximum of 15 minutes.

Trying at the same time to path these services to connect at Limerick Junction and at the same time also at Waterford with trains to/from Dublin is next to near impossible. It's difficult enough to path Dublin/Waterford services on single track into a clockface pattern that also integrates with other services between Heuston and Cherryville without also trying to connect at Waterford as well!!!

There is no Sunday service due to the gatekeepers being only on a six-day week. This absolutely kills the route.

The other thing that kills the route is the fact that despite the line speed now being 50mph it is still timetabled at 40mph!

In summary what is needed is:
1) Change the timetable to take advantage of the 50mph line speed (can be done immediately for certainly some of the route)
2) Eliminate the rest of the temporary speed restrictions on the route
3) Eliminate the speed restrictions on Dublin/Cork to facilitate faster Waterford/Limerick services and get the 2nd platform installed at Limerick Junction
4) Introduce a Sunday service
5) Introduce an early morning Limerick/Waterford morning commuter service that could then return at 0850 providing a connection out of the 0700 ex-Rosslare.
6) Defer the 1615 Waterford/Limerick Junction to 1750 (taking advantage of higher speeds) and thereby give an evening commuter service - connections at Limerick Junction would then be out of the 1800 ex-Dublin and into the 1830 ex-Cork
7) Replace Tipperary loop with one at Cahir - Tipperary loop is useless due to its close proximity to Limerick Junction
8) MARKET THE SERVICE
9) Consider GAA Specials from Waterford to Thurles via Limerick Junction - three matches there last season for Waterford and not one train, and one last weekend - A disgrace!

T Corolla

KC61 wrote: »

There is no point in offering Limerick-Waterford services without connections from Dublin and Cork at Limerick Junction. They provide much of the passengers on the route.

The real problem is that the speed restrictions on the Dublin/Cork line at present mean that Corkbound and Dublinbound trains on that line do not pass Limerick Junction at the same time. For any sort of meaningful service to be offered on the regional routes that disparity needs to be addressed so that passengers do not have interminable waits at Limerick Junction.

At present the long wait at Limerick Junction is caused by the need to connect into the Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin trains. Cork/Dublin services call at Limerick Junction at approximately XX:26 and Dublin/Cork services at anything from XX:40 to XX:51. That realistically causes a minimum 25 minute wait for through Limerick/Waterford and v.v. passengers. And that wait will remain until the speed restrictions on the main Dublin/Cork line north of Limerick Junction remain in place. Ideally up services would continue to call at Limerick Junction at XX:26 and down services advanced to XX:33 thereby reducing the wait for Limerick/Waterford services to a maximum of 15 minutes.

Trying at the same time to path these services to connect at Limerick Junction and at the same time also at Waterford with trains to/from Dublin is next to near impossible. It's difficult enough to path Dublin/Waterford services on single track into a clockface pattern that also integrates with other services between Heuston and Cherryville without also trying to connect at Waterford as well!!!

There is no Sunday service due to the gatekeepers being only on a six-day week. This absolutely kills the route.

The other thing that kills the route is the fact that despite the line speed now being 50mph it is still timetabled at 40mph!

In summary what is needed is:
1) Change the timetable to take advantage of the 50mph line speed (can be done immediately for certainly some of the route)
2) Eliminate the rest of the temporary speed restrictions on the route
3) Eliminate the speed restrictions on Dublin/Cork to facilitate faster Waterford/Limerick services and get the 2nd platform installed at Limerick Junction
4) Introduce a Sunday service
5) Introduce an early morning Limerick/Waterford morning commuter service that could then return at 0850 providing a connection out of the 0700 ex-Rosslare.
6) Defer the 1615 Waterford/Limerick Junction to 1750 (taking advantage of higher speeds) and thereby give an evening commuter service - connections at Limerick Junction would then be out of the 1800 ex-Dublin and into the 1830 ex-Cork
7) Replace Tipperary loop with one at Cahir - Tipperary loop is useless due to its close proximity to Limerick Junction
8) MARKET THE SERVICE
9) Consider GAA Specials from Waterford to Thurles via Limerick Junction - three matches there last season for Waterford and not one train, and one last weekend - A disgrace!

Excellent points KC61 but in order to make the service viable it would be a help if the service was extended to Galway in order to satify the population density,Galway(70,000),Limerick(92,000),Waterford(50,000) but be able to go from Galway to Waterford in 3hrs intercity standard linking up with the Cork Service at Limerick Junction (current time to complete journey if service ran non stop 3hrs 30min) if train served all station between two stops.

Judgement Day

Partizan wrote: »

A lack of a Sunday service is killing the Limerick Junction - Waterford - Rosslare line. This needs to be looked asap.

When was the last time there were Sunday services on this line?

I can't be sure when the last time there was a Sunday but I have in front of me the Summer 1960 timetable and there wasn't one then!

tombliboo83

Sadly the Waterford to Lim Jctn service isn't at all important to IE imo, gatekeepers are on a six day wk doing 12 hr turns often. Also the speed will take years to be increased to anywhere near intercity speed due to the need to reposition distant signals or replace gates altogether with automatics, both are extremely costly and IE dont have the money (what money they do have to spend here will be spent finishing the continuous welded rail). Also I have to say that the restrictions in place on the mainline are necessary as this whole line needs to be relaid.
Can't see any link to Galway happening for a decade, as it is it takes over 2hrs by rail Limerick to Galway(lots and lots of gates-over 30 slow it down).
Bottom line, the existing service to Limerick Jctn isn't well enough supported to capture IEs attention.
And as for match specials..they used to run them up that route but the trains were routinely destroyed by people from Carrick and Clonmel (not all of 'em) but antisocial behaviour is a huge problem on these trains, the usual few spoil it for everyone.

Chris_5339762

T Corolla wrote: »

Why do'nt the operate a Galway-Limerick-Waterford service this would have a good number of passengers. I think it is ridicilous that the train does not go from city to city. Is there a campaign ongoing to have this implemented.

No, simply because a Galway-Limerick-Cork service would make so much more sense.

KC61

Partizan wrote: »

A lack of a Sunday service is killing the Limerick Junction - Waterford - Rosslare line. This needs to be looked asap.

When was the last time there were Sunday services on this line?

The last time that there was a Sunday service on the line was the pilgrimage train from Waterford to Claremorris in 2008 I think.

KC61

tombliboo83 wrote: »

Sadly the Waterford to Lim Jctn service isn't at all important to IE imo, gatekeepers are on a six day wk doing 12 hr turns often. Also the speed will take years to be increased to anywhere near intercity speed due to the need to reposition distant signals or replace gates altogether with automatics, both are extremely costly and IE dont have the money (what money they do have to spend here will be spent finishing the continuous welded rail). Also I have to say that the restrictions in place on the mainline are necessary as this whole line needs to be relaid.
Can't see any link to Galway happening for a decade, as it is it takes over 2hrs by rail Limerick to Galway(lots and lots of gates-over 30 slow it down).
Bottom line, the existing service to Limerick Jctn isn't well enough supported to capture IEs attention.
And as for match specials..they used to run them up that route but the trains were routinely destroyed by people from Carrick and Clonmel (not all of 'em) but antisocial behaviour is a huge problem on these trains, the usual few spoil it for everyone.

What a wonderfully negative attitude. If we all took that approach to life nothing would ever get done. I never suggested that the speed restrictions on Dublin/Cork were not necessary, but rather that getting them lifted should be the main priority of the company from an infrastructural perspective.

Galway to Limerick can have 15 minutes shaved off the running times as it is to under 1 hour 45 minutes as the times are far too generous, with trains crossing at Ennis instead of Gort and then with a 10/15 minute connection at Limerick for the onward service to Limerick Junction.

The services on Limerick Junction/Waterford can also be tightened up to operate at the current line speed which will shave more time off.

The key to the regional routes is getting the speed restrictions lifted on Dublin/Cork so that passengers have minimal waits (10/15 minutes max) at Limerick Junction by virtue of "up" and "down" trains on the Cork line passing one another at the same time at Limerick Junction.

If that happens then through Waterford-Galway journeys are perfectly possible.

As for the crossings, the automation of all of the gates from Limerick Junction to Clonmel is part of the Limerick Junction upgrade which is supposed to happen this year.

As far as the locals are concerned, the real problem with this route is that IE local management have not shown any sort of interest in marketing it, raising its profile etc. Pay a visit to Clonmel Station - you would have no idea that rail services operated except for a small A4 information panel.

KC61

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

No, simply because a Galway-Limerick-Cork service would make so much more sense.

By connecting into/out of the hourly Dublin/Cork services at Limerick Junction Galway-Limerick-Waterford trains could offer that.

dowlingm

The project I really hope is not going to get long fingered by the crisis is the Limerick Junction East Platform, to allow more stopping trains at LJ and improving connection possibilities. Unfortunately I get the feeling some of the funding for it may have been contingent on developing adjoining lands?

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

The project I really hope is not going to get long fingered by the crisis is the Limerick Junction East Platform, to allow more stopping trains at LJ and improving connection possibilities. Unfortunately I get the feeling some of the funding for it may have been contingent on developing adjoining lands?

No extra land is needed - there's acres of space on the down side of the running lines.

dowlingm

KC61 - I referred to money, not land I wondered if the budget assumed cash coming from development of land surplus beyond the platform requirement.

If there was any chance of the Waterford service being retained, ideally there would be a 4x27/3x22 length platform on that line, avoiding the need to cross the mainline prior to the arrival of connecting Cork-Dublin services, or to cross it at all if the service was turning back rather than proceeding to Limerick. Instead IE will probably lay utilities across the north end of the new structure to preclude any such thing ever!

Victor

Thread split.

Victor

Spending €100-200m on rebuilding Clonmel-Thurles would be better spent on improving level crossings, signalling, track and rolling stock on the existing line and working the timetable to provide some meaningful connections. And perhaps even providing a few direct trains a day to Dublin.

KC61, you forget one thing that would make Limerick Junction so much better - proper platforms (and a bridge) on the Dublin-Cork track which means that Dublin-Cork and Cork-Dublin trains could call a the same time, thereby reducing connection times to a nominal few minutes.

Waterford-Galway has the advantages of routings via Limerick and Kildare. The trick is to reduce the number of connections, train changes and lay-overs.

The level crossings at the Carrick-on-Suir end have duties from 0655 to 2027. Potentially cycling another few gate keepers* through the level crossings would give a 7-day service. I'm not sure how many level crossings there are.


* This would giver each resident gate keeper a day off on different day of the week.

KC61

Victor wrote: »

Spending €100-200m on rebuilding Clonmel-Thurles would be better spent on improving level crossings, signalling, track and rolling stock on the existing line and working the timetable to provide some meaningful connections. And perhaps even providing a few direct trains a day to Dublin.

KC61, you forget one thing that would make Limerick Junction so much better - proper platforms (and a bridge) on the Dublin-Cork track which means that Dublin-Cork and Cork-Dublin trains could call a the same time, thereby reducing connection times to a nominal few minutes.

Waterford-Galway has the advantages of routings via Limerick and Kildare. The trick is to reduce the number of connections, train changes and lay-overs.

The level crossings at the Carrick-on-Suir end have duties from 0655 to 2027. Potentially cycling another few gate keepers* through the level crossings would give a 7-day service. I'm not sure how many level crossings there are.


* This would giver each resident gate keeper a day off on different day of the week.

Ah but Victor I didn't forget them because the additional platform is supposed to be part of the Limerick Junction upgrade.

However the platform (while desireable) is a bit of a red herring. It is the speed restrictions on Dublin/Cork that are the primary problem causing Cork bound trains to arrive much later than Dublin bound ones at Limerick Junction. Until they are addressed the long waits will ensue.

The fascination with direct trains from Dublin to Clonmel is something that amuses me.

Get the Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin trains calling at Limerick Junction each hour simultaneously and it will be perfectly possible to have fast connections there from Waterford, Limerick and Galway.

Victor

KC61 wrote: »

However the platform (while desireable) is a bit of a red herring. It is the speed restrictions on Dublin/Cork that are the primary problem causing Cork bound trains to arrive much later than Dublin bound ones at Limerick Junction.

Why don't they just leave earlier then?

Of course, they've shortened the main platform also.

KC61

Victor wrote: »

Why don't they just leave earlier then?

Of course, they've shortened the main platform also.

That would diminish the brand - a train to Cork every hour on the hour during the day!!