IAAF World Junior Championships Standards - Gender Discrimination

downthemiddle

I was surprised to see the gender imbalance in the Irish team for the World Junior Championships. We have eight male athletes going to Canada but only two females. On closer inspection the AAI seem to be discriminating against our female athletes. They have upgraded the qualifying standards from the IAAF standards for our female athletes while leaving the standards for male athletes untouched.
All males athletes who reach the IAAF standards are eligible for selection yet there are female athletes who have reached the IAAF standards who are not on the team. This is an astonishing decision by the high performance committee and one which certainly sends out the wrong message to our young female athletes.
A case of double standards.


Men Event Women
10.4/10.64 100m 11.7/11.94
21.3/21.54 200m 24.3/24.54
47.8/47.94 400m 55.1/55.24
1:51.00 800m 2:09.00
3:48.00 1500m 4:28.00

3000m 9:35.00
14:15.00/8:15.00 5000m 16:30.00
31:00.00 10,000m

9:10.00 3000m SC 11:00.00
100mH 13.9/14.4
14.4 (1.067m) or 14.0 (0.995m)/
14.64(1.067m) or 14.24(0.995m) 110mH
53.2/53.34 400mH 60.5/60.64
44:05.00 10,000m Race Walk 50:55.00
No Standard 4x100m Relay No Standard
No Standard 4x400m Relay No Standard
Heptathlon 5150
6875 (1.067m; 7.26kg SP; 2kg DT) or 7050 (1.067m; 6kg SP; 1.75kg DT – ’05) or 7090 (0.995m; 6kg SP; 1.75kg DT – ’06) Decathlon (Junior)
2.14 High Jump 1.80
5.05 Pole Vault 3.95
7.50 Long Jump 6.10
15.60 Triple Jump 12.90
18.00 (6kg) or 16.30 (7.26kg) Shot Put 14.60
54.00 (1.75kg) or 50.50 (2kg) Discus 47.50
66.00 (6kg) or 60.00 (7.26kg) Hammer 55.00
66.50 Javelin 49.50


13th IAAF World Junior Championships Moncton, Canada – 20-25 July 2010

Athletics Ireland Selection Policy (Updated April 2010)
Overview
Athletics Ireland recognises the importance of the World Junior Championships as a key
milestone in the development of the next generation of senior international athletes. The Athletics
Ireland qualifying standards demonstrate this level of competitiveness aiming for performance of
a World Semi-Final (top sixteen) level.
Entry Standards
Men Event Women
10.64 100m 11.85
21.54 200m 24.15
47.94 400m 54.80
1:51.00 800m 2:08.00
3:48.00 1500m 4:24.00
3000m 9:30.00
14:15.00 / 8:15.00 (3000m) 5000m 16:30.00
31:00.00 10,000m
9:10.00 3000m SC 10:45.00
100mH 14.14
14.64 (1.067m) or 14.24 (0.995m) 110mH
53.34 400mH 60.30
44:05.00 10,000m Race Walk 50:55.00
No standard 4x100m Relay No standard
No standard 4x400m Relay No standard
6875 (1.067m; 7.26kg SP; 2kg DT)
or 7050 (1.067m; 6kg SP; 1.75kg DT
-’05) or 7090 (0.995m; 6kg SP;
1.75kg DT -’06)
Decathlon
Heptathlon 5150
2.14 High Jump 1.80
5.05 Pole Vault 3.95
7.50 Long Jump 6.10
15.60 Triple Jump 12.90
18.00 (6kg) or 16.30 (7.26kg) Shot Put 14.60
54.00 (1.75kg) or 50.50 (2kg) Discus 47.50
66.00 (6kg) or 60.00 (7.26kg) Hammer 55.00
66.50 Javelin 49.50

Giants Causeway

They haven't changed any of the field events and have made a few alterations to the ladies track. Katie Kirk and Joanna mills are unfortunate to lose out. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe anybody else is in this position.

They have altered the standards of a few events - its not the first time this has occurred and it quite possibly won't be the last. Take a look at the UK standards and it will be a real eye opener. I think its a small bit of an over reaction to be calling gender discrimination!!

The reality is that that the guys have more strength in depth at that age than the girls. Its fantastic to see three with the standard in the 800. The middle distance guys have really stepped up to the mark. Ciara Mageen is undoubtedly a class act and Christine too. Best of luck to all our young athletes in Canada, lets keep a lid on the gross exaggerations though.

Pherekydes

Steffie Creaner and Joan Healy both have the 200m standard, so that's 2 more.

downthemiddle

Giants Causeway wrote: »

They haven't changed any of the field events and have made a few alterations to the ladies track. Katie Kirk and Joanna mills are unfortunate to lose out. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe anybody else is in this position.

They have altered the standards of a few events - its not the first time this has occurred and it quite possibly won't be the last. Take a look at the UK standards and it will be a real eye opener. I think its a small bit of an over reaction to be calling gender discrimination!!

The reality is that that the guys have more strength in depth at that age than the girls. Its fantastic to see three with the standard in the 800. The middle distance guys have really stepped up to the mark. Ciara Mageen is undoubtedly a class act and Christine too. Best of luck to all our young athletes in Canada, lets keep a lid on the gross exaggerations though.

They have changed all the track times for females but none for males, hardly an exaggeration to call it discrimination. At least three of our athletes are victimised by this move, Katie is too young for selection.

Giants Causeway

The mens marathon standard has been changed in the past at senior level and the 50k walk too. Its all about trying to be competitive when you get there I suppose. I'd like to see as many as possible go but cest la vie.

The required standards were communicated a long time ago so everybody knew where the bar was set.

Pherekydes

More with IAAF standards:

Eilis FitzPatrick, 100m
Gabrielle Coveney, 400mH
Aoife Hickey, Hammer

downthemiddle

Pherekydes wrote: »

More with IAAF standards:

Eilis FitzPatrick, 100m
Gabrielle Coveney, 400mH
Aoife Hickey, Hammer

Are there any males athletes with the IAAF standard who have not been selected?

Giants Causeway

downthemiddle wrote: »

They have changed all the track times for females but none for males, hardly an exaggeration to call it discrimination. At least three of our athletes are victimised by this move, Katie is too young for selection.

Katie is not too young for selection.

They criteria for selection states that the qualifying standards imposed are with a view to ensuring that all representatives can aim to reach the semi final or last 16 so hence the reason for the adjustments.

Similarly you cannot compete in Singapore and the World Juniors - otherwise we would have had 4 looking for selection in the 800m.

Pherekydes

downthemiddle wrote: »

Are there any males athletes with the IAAF standard who have not been selected?

I don't know. This thread is about women who have been omitted.

Giants Causeway

The title of the thread would suggest that the male query is relevant!:D

downthemiddle

Giants Causeway wrote: »

Katie is not too young for selection.

Mature reply.

You are of course correct as all youths are eligible for junior selection. Mea Culpa.
However it doesn't detract from my argument that the girl's standards were changed but the boy's weren't.

Giants Causeway

downthemiddle wrote: »

Mature reply.

You are of course correct as all youths are eligible for junior selection. Mea Culpa.
However it doesn't detract from my argument that the girl's standards were changed but the boy's weren't.

Wise up man - merely highlighting the fact that the athlete is indeed eligable for selection for the world juniors.

The remainder of my previous post clearly and succinctly highlights the reason for the alteration to the IAAF standards.

myflipflops

Giants Causeway wrote: »

The reality is that that the guys have more strength in depth at that age than the girls.

This is true at Junior level for distance events anyway. I don't know about sprints (and it seems most of the IAAF qualifiers missing out are sprinters).

Possibly it's a scenario where the AAI adjust female qualifier times to be more in line with the male IAAF standards.

downthemiddle

Giants Causeway wrote: »

The remainder of my previous post clearly and succinctly highlights the reason for the alteration to the IAAF standards.

So what you are saying is that the AAI have decided if a male athlete gets the IAAF qualifying standard they are capable of a top 16 place but apparently a female athlete with an equivalent standard isn't.
I can't find any record of an athlete with the male standard who hasn't been selected.

Giants Causeway

I can only point out their stated selection policy. You can read into that what you like as regard expected levels of performance.
I would definitely say that the 800m and 1500m guys are well capable of reaching the last 16. I hope the hurdlers do too. John Travers is the fastest junior since Mark Christie over 3000m and 14m 15 is as fast as Mark Carroll was as a junior when he won the Euro Juniors. All are well worthy of selection and best of luck to them. The girls should also be very competitive - especially Ciara.

Giants Causeway

downthemiddle wrote: »

I can't find any record of an athlete with the male standard who hasn't been selected.

Maybe not for the Juniors but how about Colin Griffin and Fagan for Barcelona. Both are contentious omissions.

downthemiddle

Giants Causeway wrote: »

Maybe not for the Juniors but how about Colin Griffin and Fagan for Barcelona. Both are contentious omissions.

You won't get any argument from me there, but that is not the issue being discussed here.

drrunner

My own opinion is that with the particular difficulty in retaining girls in the sport after the age of 16/17, the change in the women's standards is particularly short sighted (although fully acknowledge that it was flagged some time ago). Increasing rather than reducing the motivation of athletes who have achieved a good standard by this age should be the name of the game - especially given some evidence that some athletes who have gone on to set national senior records have not necessarily been outstanding juniors...we need to retain all the potential talent we can!! The GBR standards reflect the fact that they have a talent pool which is twenty times larger than ours BTW!

I would also question who precisely has the expertise to be making the adjustments and what evidence based process was used in calibrating the standards? If this was evident, maybe it would not be a contentious issue at all.

downthemiddle

Three girls achieved the IAAF standard and have not been selected, Kirk, Creaner and Coveney. All boys with the IAAF standard have been selected. This is hardly conducive to the development of sport amongst our young female athletes is there isn't a level playing field.

Giants Causeway

Qualification standards are altered from time to time - its a fact of life in athletics. We have seen it before in mens events, on this occasion it is a few of the Junior ladies events. It is important for people to note that these entry standards were amended before the girls achieved these times.

I think the main thing here is that AAI issued their standards early enough for all athletes to be aware what was required to obtain selection. I would love to see the largest possible teams go to all international events. However the standards were set and the rationale put forward in a transparent manner when the criteria was set out. Lets not get carried away with chat of discrimination - that is gross hyperbole. Its important to maintain a rational outlook on these issues.

downthemiddle

Nobody is questioning when the qualification criteria was set. If you are talking about transparency why were the standards for females changed but not for males? What criteria was used to make these changes? Who made these changes and why?

shels4ever

Giants Causeway wrote: »

Qualification standards are altered from time to time - its a fact of life in athletics. We have seen it before in mens events, on this occasion it is a few of the Junior ladies events. It is important for people to note that these entry standards were amended before the girls achieved these times.

I think the main thing here is that AAI issued their standards early enough for all athletes to be aware what was required to obtain selection. I would love to see the largest possible teams go to all international events. However the standards were set and the rationale put forward in a transparent manner when the criteria was set out. Lets not get carried away with chat of discrimination - that is gross hyperbole. Its important to maintain a rational outlook on these issues.

But looks like AAI think that the IAAf standards for girls are too soft....Don't think anyone has siad it hasnt been transparent just seems to be a gender balence thing...

Giants Causeway

Why were the 50km and marathon changed previously and not ladies? Who made them and why? I don't know the answer but to suggest gender discrimination is a tad far fetched.

I can't say for sure but it seems that the AAI standards are set at what they perceive a top 16 perfomance. I'm sure there will be differences with the actual results but they can only make the call, give sufficient notice and carry on. Maybe they do feel there is inequality in level of performance required to qualify in some events? I didn't make the call and I doubt whoever did is going to make themselves available to answer here. Maybe call AAI and ask them? It will yield more answers for you than repeatedly posting the the same query and venting on this thread?

Let us know if you get an answer.

TrackFan123

I say anyone with a standard should be taken, we need to give these athletes as much international experience as possible, instead of cutting costs by raising standards so less people can go ...

Juat look at Gillick for example, wasnt a brilliant junior, only good enough for our relay squad and now he is one of our top 3 genuine world class athletes

ecoli

What ever about altering senior standards i think that at Junior and Juvenile levels should not be made more difficult to try and combat the drop off rate of people in the sport come there late teens. These are the years that we need to encourage most to keep people in our sport and keep them motivated to compete through the transition from school and social distractions. This is made evident in participations in these late teen years which see a significant drop off

Giants Causeway

I don't think altering standards at senior level has any less of an impact that doing so at junior and juvenile level. Fo example, Olive Loughnane competed in several major championships before she became a medal contender. If standards had been adjusted she may have missed out on valuable experience that enabled her to emerge as a truly world class athlete. Sending qualifiers who barely achieve the standard at senior level can sometimes be equally as important as sending equivalent juniors. An athletes development does not stop when they reach 21 years of age.

ecoli

Giants Causeway wrote: »

I don't think altering standards at senior level has any less of an impact that doing so at junior and juvenile level. Fo example, Olive Loughnane competed in several major championships before she became a medal contender. If standards had been adjusted she may have missed out on valuable experience that enabled her to emerge as a truly world class athlete. Sending qualifiers who barely achieve the standard at senior level can sometimes be equally as important as sending equivalent juniors. An athletes development does not stop when they reach 21 years of age.

My references were not to an athletes development but rather the fact that our sports participation levels seen the most dramatic drop of from the ages of 16-20 roughly. Many factors come into this (exams, social factors etc.) my point was that this is something which is a major problem for our sport. If an athlete of 24-26 has managed to stay this long in the sport there is a very good chance of them remaining in the sport than a younger athlete contemplating all the changes in there lives at this juncture in time we need to be doing more to keep there interest.
How many people respond to hearing you are involved in athletics with "Oh i used to do that when i was younger"

Giants Causeway

ecoli wrote: »

My references were not to an athletes development but rather the fact that our sports participation levels seen the most dramatic drop of from the ages of 16-20 roughly. Many factors come into this (exams, social factors etc.) my point was that this is something which is a major problem for our sport. If an athlete of 24-26 has managed to stay this long in the sport there is a very good chance of them remaining in the sport than a younger athlete contemplating all the changes in there lives at this juncture in time we need to be doing more to keep there interest.
How many people respond to hearing you are involved in athletics with "Oh i used to do that when i was younger"

The participation aspect is true for all sports and particularly minority sports such as athletics. We will always face a big struggle with numbers in the transition between juvenile/junior to senior. Its important not to forget thse who do stick with it through the transition. We almost lost Mark Kenneally to the sport, Rob Connolly is gone. I haven't seen Danny Darcy for some time.

The point is that our next future medalist may not be in Canada for the Juniors, it could well be someone at the Europeans who will either develop further, move up in distance etc. Ideally more could be done to keep athletes in the sport at the ages you identified. However we all know of talanted athletes that would not have remained in the sport regardless of what opportunities were afforded to them. An iron resolve is required to make it as a senior international athlete.

I agree with the points you make in general but there is an opportunity cost of any investment. Thats the challenge of the sport I suppose.

downthemiddle

Giants Causeway wrote: »

Maybe call AAI and ask them? It will yield more answers for you than repeatedly posting the the same query and venting on this thread?

Let us know if you get an answer.

It wouldn't be my first time to contact the AAI .
I have heard that the coaches of some of the athletes concerned have made their feelings known to the AAI. The AAI have promised to respond to their concerns.
I find it strange that an athlete is deemed worthy of a place in the European league squad and also looks likely to compete in the Commonwealth Games but is not selected for the world juniors.
One of our leading athletes when informed of the situation last weekend commented that they were .02 secs inside the standard when they qualified for their first major championship as a junior. If the current situation had arisen back then their career may well have taken a totally different path.
Young athletes need all the encouragement they can get. They make sacrifices their peers could not imagine. They show great character to resist the temptations to which their friends succumb. A decision to alter qualifying standards could have far reaching implications for their future in the sport. We cannot afford to lose our talented young athletes.

Giants Causeway

downthemiddle wrote: »

It wouldn't be my first time to contact the AAI .
I have heard that the coaches of some of the athletes concerned have made their feelings known to the AAI. The AAI have promised to respond to their concerns.
I find it strange that an athlete is deemed worthy of a place in the European league squad and also looks likely to compete in the Commonwealth Games but is not selected for the world juniors.
One of our leading athletes when informed of the situation last weekend commented that they were .02 secs inside the standard when they qualified for their first major championship as a junior. If the current situation had arisen back then their career may well have taken a totally different path.
Young athletes need all the encouragement they can get. They make sacrifices their peers could not imagine. They show great character to resist the temptations to which their friends succumb. A decision to alter qualifying standards could have far reaching implications for their future in the sport. We cannot afford to lose our talented young athletes.

Oh you don't need to point out the accomplishments of Katie Kirk and Joanna Mills - indeed I was the one who brought it to your attention that she was actually eligable for selection.
However on Boards we can just vent our frustration but what difference will that make in the general scheme of things. I believe Brendan McDaid is the team manager for the Juniors. Maybe give him an earful. If all the coaches involved did that things might change in the future. Anonomous posting on boards won't change a thing.

downthemiddle

Giants Causeway wrote: »

Oh you don't need to point out the accomplishments of Katie Kirk and Joanna Mills - indeed I was the one who brought it to your attention that she was actually eligable for selection.
However on Boards we can just vent our frustration but what difference will that make in the general scheme of things. I believe Brendan McDaid is the team manager for the Juniors. Maybe give him an earful. If all the coaches involved did that things might change in the future. Anonomous posting on boards won't change a thing.

Yeah I had never heard of Katie until you mentioned her :rolleyes:. I was unsure if as a 16 yr old she was eligible for selection as there are specific rules regarding youths. BTW she won the schools internationals today.
I believe that the CEO, the President and the High Performance Manager all got an earful in Santry last weekend. As stated previously I have no difficulty in making my feelings known to members of the AAI and would certainly do so if an athlete I trained was involved. The purpose of this thread was to inform posters of the situation. If everyone decided that anonymous postings were of no value there would be no internet forums .

Giants Causeway

downthemiddle wrote: »

Yeah I had never heard of Katie until you mentioned her :rolleyes:.

If everyone decided that anonymous postings were of no value there would be no internet forums .

No need to be conceited. I merely pointed out that you weren't aware she was eligible for selection. Everybody interested in Irish Junior athletics has heard of her.

Perhaps you can stick to what I said rather than falsely interpreting it. I never said internet forums were of no value. Of course they have merit, they allow people to vent anonomously rather than address the issue in the real world.:D If you think what is said here affects decisions in AAI you are deluding yourself though!

If you feel strongly enough to vent on and on and on about it here why not call AAI. Athletics needs people who are willing to effect change, not just sit by and criticise.

Rineanna

Guys, either keep it civil or don't bother posting at all.

IrishTrackFan1

Giants Causeway wrote: »

No need to be conceited. I merely pointed out that you weren't aware she was eligible for selection. Everybody interested in Irish Junior athletics has heard of her.

Perhaps you can stick to what I said rather than falsely interpreting it. I never said internet forums were of no value. Of course they have merit, they allow people to vent anonomously rather than address the issue in the real world.:D If you think what is said here affects decisions in AAI you are deluding yourself though!

If you feel strongly enough to vent on and on and on about it here why not call AAI. Athletics needs people who are willing to effect change, not just sit by and criticise.

I think we can all agree on one thing and that is that there is no transparency around who sets these standards. Of course there should be a policy statement from AAI around how these standards are set, there should be the possibility of review and discussion and there should be formal signoff by the board but anyone with the slightest exposure to AAI politics knows that nothing like this happens. What actually happens is that a couple of individuals receive instructions from the Sports Council regarding any and all of these issues, and they then manipulate the CEO, the HP Chairman and the HP committee to ensure that a veneer of respectability covers these decisions. If this seems far fetched then why is there no published policy on the topic of standards and why we need to adjust IAAF ones? And why will all of the carded athletes tell you that its Finbarr Kirwan in the Sports Council that decides their allocation, not AAI? And don't forget the shenanigans around B athletes going to Beijing, and the Chamney/Campbell raceoff etc etc.
The CEO is in position since last October and he hasn't made a single decision that shows that he recognises this or that he wants to change any of it. The stupidity around these standards is just one example of the overall malaise.
One thing is certain. Any success our athletes achieve in Barcelona or in London will come in spite of the AAI not because of them.

thirtyfoot

Does anyone know what the calculations were based on out of interest. On average in the 100-400m events on the flat and hurdles, the junior women would need to be 30-40 places higher in the world rankings than the men. Hardly fair and I can't for the life of me see any statistical logic in the change.

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

Does anyone know what the calculations were based on out of interest. On average in the 100-400m events on the flat and hurdles, the junior women would need to be 30-40 places higher in the world rankings than the men. Hardly fair and I can't for the life of me see any statistical logic in the change.

It's just step 1 to having a male only team in 2016