Landlords/tenants

Wonkagirl

With regards to deposits etc- is it the norm for a landlord to give back 100% of a tenants deposit? I have tenants who are moving out, and they are looking for their deposit back.. now, in the last 6 mths, we've spent 600 eur on new chairs, blocked drains and electrical faults.. so on that basis, i was going to deduct 20% off their deposit, but they dont think this is fair..

aidan_walsh

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/landlords_rights_and_obligations

As a landlord, you may withhold a deposit (or part of a deposit) only if:

The tenant has not given you proper notice when leaving
You have been left with outstanding bills (i.e., public utilities) or rent
The tenant has caused damage beyond normal wear and tear.

Regarding the drainage and electrical repairs:

As a landlord, you must:
[...]
Make sure that the property meets certain minimum standards
Repair and maintain the interior of the property to the standard it was in at the start of the tenancy
Repair and maintain the structure of the property
Reimburse tenants for any repairs they carry out which are your responsibility

Wonkagirl

tks aidan.. i wonder would broken chairs be considered normal wear and tear? and the fact that the neighbours are always complaining that the grass is never cut properly?

hohojojo

i am a landlord and unless the tenent did something really wrong i wouldn't be keeping any of there deposite i know you probably not making much but unlike what yo'd be told by an estate agent being fair is always better for you in the long run, the drains and electrical mean nothing and the chairs now unless they smashed the old ones i can't see why it has anything to do with the deposite when your renting buy more hardwaring stuff rather than expensive it helps by the way the way you typed you blog it seems like you are just looking for an excuse

Improbable

Wonkagirl wrote: »

tks aidan.. i wonder would broken chairs be considered normal wear and tear? and the fact that the neighbours are always complaining that the grass is never cut properly?

It depends on the situation. Just having to replace the chairs does not warrant keeping part of their deposit. Normal wear and tear is damage that occurs as a result of normal use. For example, if the chairs were broken because they were old and used frequently, that would be normal wear and tear. If they picked the chairs up and threw them around, that would not be normal wear and tear. Same goes for the drainage and electrical systems. As for the grass, unless there has been damage to the property because of not cutting the grass, I don't think you have a case on that front.

If you think that a conflict may arise, I would take a look here:

http://www.prtb.ie/

dvpower

Wonkagirl wrote: »

tks aidan.. i wonder would broken chairs be considered normal wear and tear?

Probably not. Depends on the chair I suppose. I'd expect a cheap kitchen chair to last, say, 3 years. If it lasted that long and was broken, then wear and tear, otherwise not.

Wonkagirl wrote: »

and the fact that the neighbours are always complaining that the grass is never cut properly?

You could hardly deduct a deposit for that:eek: (were you planning on giving it to the neighbours as compensation?)

mikemac

Wonkagirl wrote: »

and the fact that the neighbours are always complaining that the grass is never cut properly?

What good will it do now to take money from the deposit this stage, it doesn't solve anything.

Jev/N

Unless it's damage considered beyond normal/standard wear and tear, you have little or no right to deduct money. It should also be returned relatively promptly.

I can't see any of the issues you've raised as being anyway valid to deduct, unless they actually damaged or caused them.

See the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 for more information.

Ms. Inquisitive

I am having an awful lot of trouble with my previous landlord so any help will be much appreciated! The whole story is quite complex but I will be sparse on details in an attempt to remain anonymous.

Basically, I had to move out for a number of months as I was working abroad. The agreeement with the landlord was that I wouldn't have to pay rent whilst I was away but would continue to live there and pay rent when I returned. She also agreed that I could kept my possessions there while I was away.

Upon returning home however, I found out that the other tenant in the house (the house was rented to us as a whole and we were not renting on a separate room basis) had been kicked out due to non-payment of their own rent. There are also bills outstanding.

The landlord has said to us that if we do not come up with the moneys owed (especially for the bills) in three days time, our furniture will be sold off in order to recoup some of the money. I only returned home a few days ago and the whole situation was completly unknown to me. I feel that the whole situation is completely unfair. I owe her some money for bills and have explained to her that I fully intend to pay her this back as soon as I have the means to but she still insists that my furniture will be sold by Monday.

I have contacted the guards, but as she is an unregistered landlord they have stated that it is a civil matter and have advised us to contact a solicitor. Does anyone have any information as to where I would stand legally? No lease was signed of course. Thanks!

Improbable

Ms. Inquisitive wrote: »

I am having an awful lot of trouble with my previous landlord so any help will be much appreciated! The whole story is quite complex but I will be sparse on details in an attempt to remain anonymous.

Basically, I had to move out for a number of months as I was working abroad. The agreeement with the landlord was that I wouldn't have to pay rent whilst I was away but would continue to live there and pay rent when I returned. She also agreed that I could kept my possessions there while I was away.

Upon returning home however, I found out that the other tenent in the house (the house was rented to us as a whole and we were not renting on a separate room basis) had been kicked out due to non-payment of their own rent. There are also bills outstanding.

The landlord has said to us that if we do not come up with the moneys owed in three days time, our furniture will be sold off in order to recoup some of the money. I only returned home a few days ago and the whole situation was completly unknown to me. I feel that the whole situation is completely unfair. I owe her some money for bills and have explained to her that I fully intend to pay her this back as soon as I have the means to but she still insists that my furniture will be sold by monday.

I have contacted the guards, but as she is an unregistered landlord they have stated that it is a civil matter and have advised us to contact a solicitor. Does anyone have any information as to where I would stand legally? No lease was signed of course. Thanks!

As far as I was aware, all landlords and tenants must be registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board and that under the Residential Tenancies Act of 2004 and the Landlord and Tenants Acts of 1967 – 1994, a landlord does NOT have the right to retain your property even under non-payment of rent.

Source: CitizensInformation.ie

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/landlords_rights_and_obligations

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/registering_a_tenancy

Edit: I didn't see that last bit about no lease being signed. I have no idea what your rights would be in this case. Would definitely contact a solicitor.

Ms. Inquisitive

Thanks for the reply Improbable. It was much appreciated! I really didn't want to go down the legal route but it appears that I may have no choice. I just feel that I am being unfairly treated as this was all happening while I was away and had no control over what happened - and now may be faced with my furniture being sold in lieu of €200 owed on bills (which I have given my word that I will pay back to her in a months time). I don't feel that I am responsible for the other tenants debt to her.

She also attempted to keep some other belongings of mine (a parcel that arrived to the house). She collected it without my consent and signed the name of a previous tenent in order to collect it. I managed to get this back however (after much trouble) after I consented the guards and threatened her with gardai action for theft of property. She also opened other post of mine and entered the house without permission in order to pack away our possessions. She has also attempted to keep several possessions of ours such as some sentimental items, handbags and electrical equipment.

Does this landlord really have a leg to stand on legally if they are not registered?

Improbable

I suppose if there was a verbal agreement and she doesn't contest that, then she shouldn't really have much to go on. Did she not ask for a deposit from you?

Direct quote from citizeninformation:

A landlord in Ireland is the owner of land or a building owner who has leased that land, building or a part of the land or building, to another person. The person a landlord rents this land or building to, is called a ‘tenant’. Your rights and obligations as a landlord in Ireland come from specific landlord/tenant law. In addition, your rights and obligations stem from any written or verbal tenancy agreement between you and your tenant. Leases or other tenancy agreements cannot take away from your or your tenants’ legal rights. However, you and your tenant can agree on matters that are not dealt with in law.

Ms. Inquisitive

No. No deposit was taken from us. She was desperate to get someone into the property as soon as possible and told us that a deposit would not be necessary. I realise that the route of legal action may be the only option left. However, if it is going to be a costly one - I may just have to let my possessions go. Especially as a court may not look to favourably on the other tenants non-payment of rent.

Wonkagirl

Jev/N wrote: »

Unless it's damage considered beyond normal/standard wear and tear, you have little or no right to deduct money. It should also be returned relatively promptly.

I can't see any of the issues you've raised as being anyway valid to deduct, unless they actually damaged or caused them.

See the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 for more information.

FYI I agreed deposit less 10% with the guy- I think that's fair- the broken chairs (which were only a year old) and the burnt out water heater do not constitute normal wear and tear as far as my research shows. He seems happy enough with this.

hobochris

Wonkagirl wrote: »

FYI I agreed deposit less 10% with the guy- I think that's fair- the broken chairs (which were only a year old) and the burnt out water heater do not constitute normal wear and tear as far as my research shows. He seems happy enough with this.

broken chairs - fair enough if they were deliberately broken,but If you bought crap furniture like many landlords do then that's your problem.


water heater - Can you prove they broke it from anything other then normal use(which again is down to being faulty or insufficient for the needs of the property.)

maidhc

hobochris wrote: »

broken chairs - fair enough if they were deliberately broken,but If you bought crap furniture like many landlords do then that's your problem.

A chair, even a cheap one from Ikea should not break within 12 months if it is used for the purpose intended, i.e. sitting on. From my experience this would be the view taken by the PRTB.

Personally I would have deducted a far more substantial amount of the deposit (50% + ) and left it run to the PRTB if the tenant felt hard done by!

I'm also a landlord, the houses/apts are handed to the tenants in perfect condition, and it is expected they are handed back the same way, and to be honest the amount of "fair wair and tear" acceptable in 6 months is very little.

Wonkagirl

hobochris wrote: »

broken chairs - fair enough if they were deliberately broken,but If you bought crap furniture like many landlords do then that's your problem.


water heater - Can you prove they broke it from anything other then normal use(which again is down to being faulty or insufficient for the needs of the property.)

as i said, have already agreed the -10% and paid him back his deposit, so the debate is over really..

the water heater was changed in 2006, after 10 yrs, so to have it changed again 3 yrs later is a TOTAL sign of over/mis-use. They had it turned up way too high in temperature, i was told when the guy came to put in a new one..

the chairs were pretty bog standard ones- not cheap lidl ones or anything, normal, sturdy pine chairs that came fully assembled from reid furniture.. 2 out of the 6 of them broke.

PLUS, when the drains were unblocked, the guy told me that the blockage was pretty extreme- he said normally houses with girls are worse (tampons etc) but that these guys (all tenants are male) mustve been flushign DENIMS down the loo to make them as blocked as they were.. so as far as i'm concerned he's lucky i gave him deposit -10% on that basis..

Wonkagirl

Wonkagirl wrote: »

With regards to deposits etc- is it the norm for a landlord to give back 100% of a tenants deposit? I have tenants who are moving out, and they are looking for their deposit back.. now, in the last 6 mths, we've spent 600 eur on new chairs, blocked drains and electrical faults.. so on that basis, i was going to deduct 20% off their deposit, but they dont think this is fair..

I too am a landlord and find your query rather strange, there is no reason for you to withhold any of their deposit, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Edit I see you gave back 90% of it, chairs were quite new too. Fair enough.

Osgoodisgood

maidhc wrote: »

A chair, even a cheap one from Ikea should not break within 12 months if it is used for the purpose intended, i.e. sitting on. From my experience this would be the view taken by the PRTB.

From my experience the PRTB would do no such thing. Unless the landlord has video of the tenant actually breaking the chairs the PRTB is unlikely to be sympathetic to the landlord's costs in replacing them.

Personally I would have deducted a far more substantial amount of the deposit (50% + ) and left it run to the PRTB if the tenant felt hard done by!

I can't imagine worse advice to any Landlord, however you speak as if you have experience with the PRTB. Have you had any hearings or adjudications there?

Libero

Mrs Inquisitive > Your landlord is completely out of order, and acting like the Private Residential Tenancies Act doesn't exist. They may be quite busy, but try talking to Threshold, who may be able to help: www.threshold.ie

Wonkagirl > You're a lucky lady. If I was your tenant, I'd look forward to the look on your face when, at the PRTB, you couldn't prove the vintage of the chairs with receipts. And if you so much as hinted at anti-social behaviour, you'd be asked why you'd done nothing formal about it until bringing it up as a pretext for hanging onto my money.

maidhc

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

I can't imagine worse advice to any Landlord, however you speak as if you have experience with the PRTB. Have you had any hearings or adjudications there?

Yep, many a time. Have acted (in a professional context) for both tenants and landlords and found them to be extremely fair on all occasions and not nearly as pro-tenant as some make them out to be. What they do appreciate from landlords is professionalism, something which is largely lacking from many. Never had to appear before them personally, even though I wouldn't loose 2 minutes sleep over it.

In any event, the deposit is a self help remedy for landlords. It shouldn't be abused, but if the correct notice isn't given, if bills are unpaid, or if the house isn't given back in the same condition and cleanliness (fair wear and tear excepted), then the deposit is fair game, and that is exactly what the law intends.

goat2

Wonkagirl wrote: »

With regards to deposits etc- is it the norm for a landlord to give back 100% of a tenants deposit? I have tenants who are moving out, and they are looking for their deposit back.. now, in the last 6 mths, we've spent 600 eur on new chairs, blocked drains and electrical faults.. so on that basis, i was going to deduct 20% off their deposit, but they dont think this is fair..

you have no right to keep a cent on any of these basics, unless thee chairs were new and they were the first to use them as for blockages and electrical faults are yours to take care of

goat2

Ms. Inquisitive wrote: »

I am having an awful lot of trouble with my previous landlord so any help will be much appreciated! The whole story is quite complex but I will be sparse on details in an attempt to remain anonymous.

Basically, I had to move out for a number of months as I was working abroad. The agreeement with the landlord was that I wouldn't have to pay rent whilst I was away but would continue to live there and pay rent when I returned. She also agreed that I could kept my possessions there while I was away.

Upon returning home however, I found out that the other tenant in the house (the house was rented to us as a whole and we were not renting on a separate room basis) had been kicked out due to non-payment of their own rent. There are also bills outstanding.

The landlord has said to us that if we do not come up with the moneys owed (especially for the bills) in three days time, our furniture will be sold off in order to recoup some of the money. I only returned home a few days ago and the whole situation was completly unknown to me. I feel that the whole situation is completely unfair. I owe her some money for bills and have explained to her that I fully intend to pay her this back as soon as I have the means to but she still insists that my furniture will be sold by Monday.

I have contacted the guards, but as she is an unregistered landlord they have stated that it is a civil matter and have advised us to contact a solicitor. Does anyone have any information as to where I would stand legally? No lease was signed of course. Thanks!

the house was rented to us as a whole and we were not renting on a separate room
she he had every right to toss your friend out, also the sentence above tells it all, you two were a unit, so i do not blame her for getting angry to your friend.
but your furniture is yours, not hers to sell, so she is breaking the law there, you have a case, but give her her money asap, and get it in writing from her that she is going to sell what is yours, then you will have her where you want her, talk to a solicitor asap

maidhc

goat2 wrote: »

you have no right to keep a cent on any of these basics, unless thee chairs were new and they were the first to use them as for blockages and electrical faults are yours to take care of

Once had an issue where tenants were flushing shoes (seriously.... shoes) down the toilet. Are you suggesting this was acceptable?

Likewise, a chair breaking is unfortunate and few landlords would keep a deposit over that, but two chairs?

A gas boiler is probably not something you can retain a deposit for. We have a few Ariston ones that are always blowing circuit boards at 300 a go, but it is not the tenants fault.

Blanket statements like the one above are unhelpful, and silly. A chair does not have to be new. Indeed a chair should last a great many years, Lizzy Windsor has one that dates back to the 1200s!

Osgoodisgood

maidhc wrote: »

Yep, many a time. Have acted (in a professional context) for both tenants and landlords and found them to be extremely fair on all occasions and not nearly as pro-tenant as some make them out to be.

I encourage you to come down to the next Irish Property Owners Association meeting and explain this new "extremely fair" aspect of the PRTB to the group. I haven't met anyone there that has appeared at an adjudication or hearing that hasn't come away thoroughly disillusioned with the process.

What they do appreciate from landlords is professionalism, something which is largely lacking from many.

Oh thank you. That's just about the starting position that the PRTB adopts.

Never had to appear before them personally, even though I wouldn't loose 2 minutes sleep over it.

Then you should probably reserve judgment until you have.

maidhc

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

I encourage you to come down to the next Irish Property Owners Association meeting and explain this new "extremely fair" aspect of the PRTB to the group. I haven't met anyone there that has appeared at an adjudication or hearing that hasn't come away thoroughly disillusioned with the process.

I have been at IPOA meetings in the past. Havn't paid the membership fee in a few years though as it wasn't worth it.

Only time I saw the PRTB crucify a landlord was when she was claiming the house was damaged, she responded with a dunnes bag full of receipts and said "this much". The adjudicator threw his eyes to heaven at that point and explained that if she was claiming for damaged the least she should do was actually figure out what she was looking for.

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Oh thank you. That's just about the starting position that the PRTB adopts.

Have good contracts signed by all, register in time, obey the standards in rental accomodation, make tenants sign off on an inventory, hand the place over clean and neat, keep photos, and you can keep a deposit all you like if things are not handed back as they should be and the PRTB will be on your side.

And if you can don't use a letting agent because they don't do any of the above!

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Then you should probably reserve judgment until you have.

I meant in a personal context relating to my own affairs. I have appeared before them representing others.

goat2

maidhc wrote: »

Once had an issue where tenants were flushing shoes (seriously.... shoes) down the toilet. Are you suggesting this was acceptable?

Likewise, a chair breaking is unfortunate and few landlords would keep a deposit over that, but two chairs?

A gas boiler is probably not something you can retain a deposit for. We have a few Ariston ones that are always blowing circuit boards at 300 a go, but it is not the tenants fault.

Blanket statements like the one above are unhelpful, and silly. A chair does not have to be new. Indeed a chair should last a great many years, Lizzy Windsor has one that dates back to the 1200s!

in answer to that
i am and have been a landlord for the past ten years, and have had it all, but a broken chair, i would overlook, broken sink or toilet would be different as these are fixed items, the chair may have been faulty, the gas boiler is just wear and tear, you can not catch someone for that as in any house there is wear and tear of everything

hobochris

goat2 wrote: »

in answer to that
i am and have been a landlord for the past ten years, and have had it all, but a broken chair, i would overlook, broken sink or toilet would be different as these are fixed items, the chair may have been faulty, the gas boiler is just wear and tear, you can not catch someone for that as in any house there is wear and tear of everything

You sound like a good Landlord goat2.

Some Landlords out there could learn a thing or two from Landlords like yourself.

goat2

Wonkagirl wrote: »

tks aidan.. i wonder would broken chairs be considered normal wear and tear? and the fact that the neighbours are always complaining that the grass is never cut properly?

the outside of the house is always the responsibility of the landlord, cutting grass, painting, powerhosing all landlords jobs,

the chair if it broke naturally is the landlords problem, and anyway he cannot prove that it was roughed about, so he should not seek cash for that