Youth Wings

Foxhound38

Is there any practical point to them - aside from cultivating self-important youngsters and giving them an excuse to drink (as if they needed another one)? Would Party's not be better off getting them involved in their constituency orgs instead of drumming them off to what are basically social clubs where they don't have to listen to them? Do Parties get a grant for maintaining youth wings?

Perhaps I'm just biased. Do levels of activity and usefulness differ between parties?

Sleepy

What's always baffled me is the age of most of those in the 'Youth Wings'. Fair enough if these party sub-divisions were for teenagers who are too young to vote or have just started voting but when you've guys in their mid-thirties involved it's just like flagging younger members as 'the idiot wing'...

Foxhound38

My neice (who is in one of these Youth Wings) was telling me that for the most part, people join these wings young, have a great time there for 6 or 7 years, make loads of friends, maybe do a bit of canvassing every now and again, but never get involved in their constituencies. Then all of a sudden, they reach a cut-off point age-wise and find that boring, grown up politics is significantly less interesting and entertaining than faffing about in the YW, and as a result retention of Youth members after their stint there is atrocious, unless the young person in question is one of the few to be elected as a councillor in that time or something.

Surely it would be better and more useful for the parties themselves to immediately drum these youngsters into constituency orgs, dumping them into the deep end as such. It would also do far more for the political education of the youngsters themselves, and give them a greater say in the Party - as intuition tells me that the views of Party Youth Wings are listened to by Party Leadership about as much as one would a distant car alarm going off in the middle of the night.

Again, perhaps not all Youth Wings are like this, but this is certaintly the impression I got from the one my niece is in.

PomBear

I'm in a youth wing of a political wing, i've went only very few piss ups, mostly we have weekly meeting and actions, demonstrations, protests, discussions etc. I'd imagine Young FG and Ógra FF would be centered around pissups but I honestly think a good youth wing is a great thing to be part of

Denerick

Its a social club and these people are literally unbearable in universities.

They are for the most part ridiculously self reverent, 'enlightened' and nakedly ambitious.

Having an interest in politics from a careerist perspective is utterly vacuous and the reason why we have no political virtue in our Republic. In short these organisations make me violently sick.

Shea O'Meara

Outside of colleges/universities they do little or no recruiting, (none that I am aware of).
Those I've met, from pretty much all the major parties are as posted above, careerist or blindly supportive of a co-member who is, (usually boyfriend/girlfriend). I've only met a few who seem genuinely interested in policy and civic mindedness. And for the record, I've discussed issues of the day with the FFail members who always backed whatever was going on, (so much for the future). So too with FG to an extent, but they were capable of being critical on party issues, as with Labour.
The only non-third level young people of similar age I know involved in politics are the neighbours and sons/daughters of either the candidate or the candidates friends who are drafted in for leafleting.

Parties have a bad habit of shipping ex-youth wing members into areas as the fresh face, even though the candidate has little or no ties to the area. People I know, myself included seldom if ever vote locally for these folk.

FTA69

I was in a youth wing for years, personally I feel a young activist would be better off getting stuck into the party proper. Youth wings are useful in the sense of providing a facility for the education of young people as well as the opportunity to develop new skills e.g. PR, organisation etc. However, they also tend to end up in a sort of bubble where the importance of the wider political vehicle is underestimated in favour of the youth organisation. Provided local party structure isn't exclusionary toward the youth, and tries to build up their competence at a fair pace then I don't really see the point in youth wings.

Foxhound38

FTA69 wrote: »

Provided local party structure isn't exclusionary toward the youth, and tries to build up their competence at a fair pace then I don't really see the point in youth wings.

I think the problem is that many are at least casually exclusionary to their youth members, and drumming them off to their own isolated university-branches, to be called on for election support and the odd "I'm down wiv de yoof" photo-op with the Party Leadership, and ignored at all other times is seen to result in less headaches for the old guard in constituencies, especially when it comes to candidate selection, co-options onto internal bodies etc... Is it any wonder they end up hacks living in a bubble if they are sealed off in such a way? I recall the same problems plaguing the Students Union movement in the early 90's (I'm assuming the situation is the same today).

This situation is not productive for either the Parties on the basis of membership-retention and gaining new ideas, or the young people themselves, who could easily end up more engaged in petty, internal squabbles of no consequence within the YW than learning about and dealing with the real political issues in their areas.

Hazlittle

I would imagine people in youth wings contribute more to politics than keyboard warriors.

Denerick

Hazlittle wrote: »

I would imagine people in youth wings contribute more to politics than keyboard warriors.

Thats the problem. Too many people in this country contribute to politics and too few sit back and think. Thats my problem with partisan organisations - not only are they mindless boors, they're also a virus eating at the heart of civic virtue.

ninty9er

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Outside of colleges/universities they do little or no recruiting, (none that I am aware of).

This is true, but particularly having experience of Fianna Fáil, anytime that is attempted the public take against young members because of the past of the party rather than encouraging them to change its future.

It's a fair criticism though and I would agree more recruiting needs to be done.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Those I've met, from pretty much all the major parties are as posted above, careerist or blindly supportive of a co-member who is, (usually boyfriend/girlfriend). I've only met a few who seem genuinely interested in policy and civic mindedness.

Again with Fianna Fáil, I know this is changing, but it's taken the situation we're in to get people vocal and active. For example FEE (Free Education for Everyone) campaign was devised by 2 FF members in UCD only to be hijacked by Socialists and turned into a ranting campaign at which point it was abandoned by said members.

Why is careerism a bad thing. If I joined the Junior Chamber and wanted to be an accountant and became careerist in my pursuit of that vocation, why is that a bad thing. It shows committment. There are also negative aspects, but lets not get all caught up in thinking that just because someone displays a bit of ambition they're automatically labelled as bad for politics.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

And for the record, I've discussed issues of the day with the FFail members who always backed whatever was going on, (so much for the future). So too with FG to an extent, but they were capable of being critical on party issues, as with Labour.

You obviously never met me. I'll back decisions based on the information at the time, but I will be critical of the way in which they have unfolded, and be critical of what could have been done to prevent certain things but wasn't.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

The only non-third level young people of similar age I know involved in politics are the neighbours and sons/daughters of either the candidate or the candidates friends who are drafted in for leafleting.

This is definitely not true, not in any of the 3 major parties anyway.

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I think the problem is that many are at least casually exclusionary to their youth members, and drumming them off to their own isolated university-branches, to be called on for election support and the odd "I'm down wiv de yoof" photo-op with the Party Leadership, and ignored at all other times is seen to result in less headaches for the old guard in constituencies, especially when it comes to candidate selection, co-options onto internal bodies etc... Is it any wonder they end up hacks living in a bubble if they are sealed off in such a way? I recall the same problems plaguing the Students Union movement in the early 90's (I'm assuming the situation is the same today).

Not necessarily true. I'm 23 and a constituency treasurer and city area secretary. The city area chair is 21, as are both treasurers, the vice chair is in his 60s, but is there as a back-up for assistance. This was actually taken back to HQ as an example of what needs to be replicated nationwide.

We're not the most active, but we do attempt to do as much as we can. We've all got jobs and lives, so it takes time to get anything done.

I joinjed at 18 in a 3rd level with no family history. I'm interested in policy and change

Hazlittle

Denerick wrote: »

Thats the problem. Too many people in this country contribute to politics and too few sit back and think. Thats my problem with partisan organisations - not only are they mindless boors, they're also a virus eating at the heart of civic virtue.

Odd comment.

YFG spend a lot of time thinking up of policies and they debate them hard and vigorously. If anything not enough people are involved in politics.

Nope I have decided. You comment is daft.

Foxhound38

ninty9er wrote: »

Not necessarily true. I'm 23 and a constituency treasurer and city area secretary. The city area chair is 21, as are both treasurers, the vice chair is in his 60s, but is there as a back-up for assistance. This was actually taken back to HQ as an example of what needs to be replicated nationwide.

We're not the most active, but we do attempt to do as much as we can. We've all got jobs and lives, so it takes time to get anything done.

I joinjed at 18 in a 3rd level with no family history. I'm interested in policy and change

This is good to see in my opinion, but I'd be talking more about engagement with the Youth Wings as a whole by their mother parties (in particular Ogra Fianna Fail, Young Fine Gael and Labour Youth). Do the Executives of the Youth Wings themselves encourage active participation on a constituency level, or just on particular campaigns that the YW decides to involve itself in?

Would there be a case for gradually shutting down the Youth Wings as seperate entities, and automatically organizing Young Members into their constituencies - or in the case of a university branch, recognizing it as a full branch of the Party (I'm not sure what the situation is regarding whether or not this already the case)?

More importantly, do parties get anything in the form of a grant for maintaining Youth Wings within their Party? Could this be the reason they still exist?

Shea O'Meara

ninty9er wrote: »

Why is careerism a bad thing. If I joined the Junior Chamber and wanted to be an accountant and became careerist in my pursuit of that vocation, why is that a bad thing. It shows committment. There are also negative aspects, but lets not get all caught up in thinking that just because someone displays a bit of ambition they're automatically labelled as bad for politics.

If I meant 'ambitious' I would have used that word. By careerist I mean getting ahead above all else; actual beliefs, civic responsibility, the needs of those you represent etc.
Ambition is fine by me.
By the way accountants are not public servants and being a politician is more than a pay check (or expense account).

I say little or no recruiting outside of third level.
You say:

ninty9er wrote: »

This is true, but particularly having experience of Fianna Fáil, anytime that is attempted the public take against young members because of the past of the party rather than encouraging them to change its future.
It's a fair criticism though and I would agree more recruiting needs to be done.

Then I say most local non-third level youth are mostly only used to drop leaflets;
You say;

ninty9er wrote: »

This is definitely not true, not in any of the 3 major parties anyway.

I guess both are true?

ninty9er wrote: »

I joinjed at 18 in a 3rd level with no family history. I'm interested in policy and change

Would you leave the party if after a time they didn't meet with your ideals? Or as you grow with the party could you see yourself possibly changing your views and leaving?
I'm not trying to needle you imparticular, I'm curious if a person joins young do they stay onboard due to simply becoming institutionalised?
I find it difficult to sign up 100% with any party, to have done so at a young age, I'm pretty sure I would have left as my views have changed to an extent over the years.
I guess I find it difficult to believe that a person, who is say 40 or 50, having begun in the youth wing, could still be there, with whichever party, based soley on the issues and how they affect the public.

I believe, again based on meeting such people, youth wings are made up of social/political cliques who, if remaining in a party for decades, will be there simply because they are there, meaning the career and time invested is more important than any values, legitimate or not, once held.

You can be a great Accountant without having any feelings either positively or negatively for the numbers. The same can't be said for a Politician and people, although it is often the case unfortunatley.

Sand

I guess they need to give young and ambitious types something to do in case they threaten the status quo. After theyve served their time, been jaded and ground down into mediocrity, accepted the way things are done, got the coffee in, collected the TDs laundry and so on - then they might be adopted into the real organisation. Its a great way of containing the threat of new ideas and new thinking.

Denerick

Sand wrote: »

I guess they need to give young and ambitious types something to do in case they threaten the status quo. After theyve served their time, been jaded and ground down into mediocrity, accepted the way things are done, got the coffee in, collected the TDs laundry and so on - then they might be adopted into the real organisation. Its a great way of containing the threat of new ideas and new thinking.

Exactly!

The level of partisanship is so bloody stultifying to intellect and creativity. Its also necessarily sycophantic. I find it impossible to have much respect for people involved in student politics - they are nearly always blindingly ambitious.

Het-Field

Youth Wings are a strange cast of organisation. Depending on the organisation you join, you can get anything from a high level of debate, right down to the most farcical efforts at "political activism". I know one guy who was able to deconstruct the english electoral results in 2010 in the context of the 2005 results without having the data before him. On the other hand I have heard youth wings activists utter farcical statements such as "nobody was on a hospital trolly until Mary Harney took over", and "I joined FF because my family vote FF, why would I vote for anybody else" ?

I spent several years in a youth wing, which contained a plethora of talented and motivated people. Many were political junkies, who were not interested in the trappings of the tin pot positions which became available on an annual basis. They were some of the most credible debating sparrers in the country, and were so widely read and educated, that it put many to shame. No matter what the topic, they were always capable of spouting probative arguments to copperfasten their position. Many of these have remained my firm friends for a nuber of years, and political debate is always top of our agenda.

There was also a group of very astute operators, who were capable of getting national coverage for the organisation. Some of those people were also very capable when it came to the national electoral scene, and the 2009 was testementary to their talents, and several candidates were elected, with one or two topping the poll.

Sadly, the wing became infected by some people who were neither politically astute, nor electorally savy. They were attracted to the trappings of the "tin pot" positions, and revelled in the "power" which they believed were attached to the position. Unfortunatly, these people managed to split the organisation as they struggled for power, and sought to wrestle it from those who were democratically elected to represent the organisation. This culminated in mixed messages, and incoherence at national level. Regrettably, as this in fighting occurred in an election year it was partially to blame for the organisations disappointing show. The influence of one individual, who was neither politically savy, nor particularly useful was of particular negativity. It led to a split attempt at campaigning, and focusing on candidates who had little or no chance of election. Naturally, this deprived candidates the chance to utilise motivated and smart people, who could have proved convincing on the doorstep in the days leading up to the election. Not suprisingly, within months of the disappointing election, this individual left the party, and left it with the important branch which he was in charge of, hanging on by a thread, and without a ready and willing successor. Of course, this person didnt leave the political arena, simply the organisation which they had used and abused to further their own ends.


Youth wings are a breeding ground for those who wish to have their ego stroked for failings which they have endured in civillian life. The same applies to the swaths of constituency officer-boards around the country. Many enjoy the status which their positions bistow upon them, even though these positions are completely redundant on the whole. Naturally, leading Fianna Fail or Fine Gael in UCD or Labour in Trinity College can hold a level of prestige for a 20 year old student. However, there are many activists who at 25 or 26 would still consider these positions as useful substitutes to a real life. Other then roles like National Chairperson, where Ard Comhairle/National Executive positions are parts of the package, the vast majority of youth party roles are irrelevant, and are nice CV Fillers.

Youth Wings are often ignored by the Main party. A phrase I became associated with was "leaflets on legs". Effectively, youth wing activists are used to drop leaflets. The best a youth wing activist could hope for was to organise a debate/talk with a party leader, or becoming a lowly officer on an offical campaign team. However, when it come to putting motions forward for National Conferences etc, only one packaged motion may be accepted. As a rule youth parties would never be allowed to nominate candidates. Experiences of John Kennedy (Fine Gael Seanad Candidate 2007), and Bob Quinn (Progressive Democrats Candidate, Dublin South Central Candidate 2002), whereby the main organisation will ask a youth wing to nominate a candidate, will be very rare. On the whole youth wing activists will need to lick sufficient ass within the ranks of the main party's local organisation before they will be granted a local nomination.

Youth wings often have a high drop-out/defection rate. Petty squabbles and personal vendettas run rife, and the loses of these battles often take off in a huff, or snipe from the sidelines and plot the downfall of the one who has screwed them. People will also get bored if the wing becomes inactive. They will snipe and grind teeth at the "leadership", but will neither have the drive nor the smarts to do something about it.

All in all, Youth Wings can be useful. But it depends on the youth wing you join. You may also be unlucky enough to get involved when people are screwing the system, and sucking the life out of it for their own personal ends. Finally, you will come up against a wall of stupidity in most youth wings.

ninty9er

Denerick wrote: »

Exactly!

The level of partisanship is so bloody stultifying to intellect and creativity. Its also necessarily sycophantic. I find it impossible to have much respect for people involved in student politics - they are nearly always blindingly ambitious.

Wow, I knew some people were detached from reality, but really, that's insulting.

Denerick

.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

Wow, I knew some people were detached from reality, but really, that's insulting.

Regrettably, the quoted poster is not completely wrong.

Partisanship is often a cancer amongst youth activists. I can remember countless OFF and YFG activists which I have left speechless, as I have single-handedly obliterated any good reason they have for being members of their respective organisations. Many were incapable of offering me specific politics which their youth wing, or main party advocate, which they would agree with. Then there will be others who will have studied their respective Party's "platitudes and spin handbook", and trot out those lines, until somebody rebuts them comprehensively.

Ambition is another major cancer, and I have described my own encounterances with such people. I recall one of the highest ranking members of one of Ireland's two major youth wings telling me that many of the members thrive on "taking people down" and "stabbing them in the back", and in fact, it is against that that one can measure how successful a year they have had in the youth wing". No matter how small the stakes, the backstabbing will continue. I recall being told of claims of internal bullying of a member of Ogra, who sought to run for a position in his college's Students Union, on the basis of his refusal to support another candidate from the organisation in their quest to climb the ranks of the union.

Hazlittle

Denerick wrote: »

Exactly!

The level of partisanship is so bloody stultifying to intellect and creativity. Its also necessarily sycophantic. I find it impossible to have much respect for people involved in student politics - they are nearly always blindingly ambitious.

Intellectuals influence the media, the media influence the people, the people influence the politicians, the politicians influence the law. Intellectuals rarely get elected as most people are thick.

Het-Field

Hazlittle wrote: »

Intellectuals influence the media, the media influence the people, the people influence the politicians, the politicians influence the law. Intellectuals rarely get elected as most people are thick.

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=2861

Lost His Seat

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=3924

Walked out of National Politics

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=9413

Walked out of National Politics

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=3650

Lost his seat Three Times.


On the other Hand

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?id=4331

No elections lost

Proves your point.

Hazlittle

Het-Field wrote: »

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=2861

Lost His Seat

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=3924

Walked out of National Politics

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=9413

Walked out of National Politics

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=3650

Lost his seat Three Times.


On the other Hand

http://www.electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?id=4331

No elections lost

Proves your point.

And they're pretty crap examples for intellectuals.

Eliot Rosewater

Denerick wrote: »

They are for the most part ridiculously self reverent, 'enlightened' and nakedly ambitious.

Student politics is indeed something terrible. It's plagued with self-righteousness and people ambitious simply for popularity and power (the former being the more prevalent, from what I can see). Student politics is often used as a stepping stone to "real" politics: 3 out of 4 of the full-time officers of UCC's Student's Union are members of political parties. And so on.

I also think that your typical party-affiliated student isn't that clued in. I'd say they wouldn't stand a chance in a debate with the average politics poster here, for instance. It all comes back to the bemusing question: why did they join their party? FF and FG have simply no ideological basis; nothing to make you think "these guys believe in what I believe, I might join with them". At least the socialists have some core beliefs. FF and FG have nothing like this. A FFer said to me "the great thing about FF is that you can influence it to make it your own". Or, in other words, we stand for absolutely nothing and will do whatever it takes to get us popular and elected.

If, say, The Liberals set up a University wing I'd join because they'd be like-minded to myself and I'd have a chance to work for what I believe in. Powers for power's sake bores me: I'd rather read a good book, to be honest.

Het-Field

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Student politics is indeed something terrible. It's plagued with self-righteousness and people ambitious simply for popularity and power (the former being the more prevalent, from what I can see). Student politics is often used as a stepping stone to "real" politics: 3 out of 4 of the full-time officers of UCC's Student's Union are members of political parties. And so on.

I also think that your typical party-affiliated student isn't that clued in. I'd say they wouldn't stand a chance in a debate with the average politics poster here, for instance. It all comes back to the bemusing question: why did they join their party? FF and FG have simply no ideological basis; nothing to make you think "these guys believe in what I believe, I might join with them". At least the socialists have some core beliefs. FF and FG have nothing like this. A FFer said to me "the great thing about FF is that you can influence it to make it your own". Or, in other words, we stand for absolutely nothing and will do whatever it takes to get us popular and elected.

If, say, The Liberals set up a University wing I'd join because they'd be like-minded to myself and I'd have a chance to work for what I believe in. Powers for power's sake bores me: I'd rather read a good book, to be honest.

One does meet the occasional gem in Youth Politics. However, the naked ambition often manifests itself when Students Union elections are called. It is well known that in November 2009 a newly appointed FF Senator returned to his alma matter, where he spoke to the College Cummann, and extolled the virtues of the SU and those elections. Unsuprisingly, when the elections took place in March 2010 each contested position had a FF candidate. In the subsequent executive elections a FF candidate contested every position. Each candidate was beaten. However, the nakedly ambitious were smoked out as they saw the SU as a manner of snaking up the greasy pole.

ninty9er

Het-Field wrote: »

Each candidate was beaten.

Take a closer look

Most if not all FF members in SUs, myself included, go to extreme lengths to distance our work from our politics. This is only fair as the students have not elected us on the basis of our politics, but in my case they wouldn't have had a choice as there were only 2 candidates on the ballot paper and both of us are FF members. However I have long been involved in the SU in various guises and would never seek to bring politics into an elected position.

However of the other 3 contested positions, there were no candidates who were or are members of political parties, in fact, I could quite plainly say that none of my colleagues agree with my politics, however, I still have a job to do and damned if I'll be judged by my politics as opposed to how I do my job, I didn't get re-elected by doing it, and I'm certainly not going to let it influence how I operate now.

That's why I took the particular student politics comment as insulting.

sceptre

Tangential discussion on Conor Cruise O'Brien etc deleted - while it's hardly surprising that some people like him and some people don't, two of you going off on one on opposing sides on him has nothing to do with the thread, just an opportunity taken to waffle on. Opportunity denied, it's not your playground etc.

/mod