Cheap Ammo - Worth the Risk?

FISMA

Lads, is it really worth putting cheap ammo into your kits?

I can never understand why the fella next to me at the range, who obviously spent a few thousand on his kit, feeds it the cheapest ammo.

I could make an exception for the new shooter looking to get practice: only on price, not on safety.

I am not saying that you have to drop the dosh on Hornaday, however, there has to be a happy medium, like Remington, American, CCI, Winchester, or the like.

I have learned to stay away from Wolf, Brown Bear and the other Russian stuff. I have [I guess fortunately] had a few rounds that never went off. They felt as if they totally missed the gunpowder stage. My only question was - "did the next round get the missing powder?"

Do your homework lads and come to your own conclusion, it's you that will be hugging the receiver. A few google searches on generic terms like "ammo sucks" or the like brings up the same culprits.

Wish we cannot do a more scientific analysis as I would like to know more about failure rates.

My advice - stay away from the cheap stuff.

Sparks

My stuff is about 2.4 cents per shot, so I can't stay away from the cheap stuff

clivej

Totally agree with FISMA although I came to a happy medium with my 223 as its realy like the VMax and Vshok but the american eagle 55 Flat Base HP shot well enough at the range. I always stay away from the remington ammo it never shoots well for me.

cavan shooter

I wont by dead cheap but draw the line at €65 as was quoted for 50 .22 hornet (Federal).:eek::eek:

Hibrion

I'm happy enough with cheap bulk pack ammo for my 22. I've bought Winchester and Federal for less than 25 quid for 500 rounds; at that price it is plenty good for rabbits.

For a centrefire rifle the cheapest I've gone is Remington hollow points and they were great. Never used anything else as my savage 223 loved them.
I'd be very wary of centre fire ammo that was too cheap.

FISMA

Hibrion,
I agree, I feed the standard stuff into my Ruger 10/22 without fear. I only wish I could do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udqDe_QfOF0

It has a certain, je ne said quoi redneck quality to it. Safe to open, youTube clip of full auto 10/22.

Until then, this gadget looks like fun

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

Hibrion,
I agree, I feed the standard stuff into my Ruger 10/22 without fear. I only wish I could do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udqDe_QfOF0

It has a certain, je ne said quoi redneck quality to it. Safe to open, youTube clip of full auto 10/22.

Until then, this gadget looks like fun

10/22 great fun, i had one for a few years. Attracted more attention than any of my rifles!

Full auto, Je ne sais quoi pourqoui Irlande n'aime pas

Sparks

It's both Irish and EU law Tackleberry. Firearms Act section 12A and the EU law surrounding category A firearms.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

It's both Irish and EU law Tackleberry. Firearms Act section 12A and the EU law surrounding category A firearms.

I know Sparkie

My french is a bit rusty lol long time since i did the LC

gunhappy_ie

I have to say that i do use cheap ammo and it suits my rifles to the ground.

I believe its all down to the rifle and its intended use.

On a single shot rifle if your looking for high accuracy forget the cheap stuff unless if you heard a particular brand was giving good results and you are prepared to buy a box to group it.

For hunters the cheap ammo generally isnt ideal as anything centerfire ive come across have been all FMJ....

For the few with S/As and want pinking ammo, its completley down to operating system. 1 shooter I know recommends Rem UMC for his HK MR223 (its accurate and cycles well) while another shooter has an Oberland Arms AR and the same ammo caused the rifle to jam because its dirty ammo.

The problems with easternblock/russan ammo is that its mass produced and they included a laquer on the casing to inhibit corrosion. This laquer is filthy and will gum up your action and will in some cases (if you dont clean your rifle properly) be corrosive. Personally... it doesnt bother my rifle at all.... its loves it and i clean it well after use

Rifles will take a double charge round (i dont reccommend you try) but they are designed to take considerably more pressure in there chamber than standard ammo as a safety measure. Its why handloaders call rounds packed to capacity "Hot" and why barrels and actions are proofed with an over charged round.

noodle650

FISMA wrote: »

Lads, is it really worth putting cheap ammo into your kits?

I can never understand why the fella next to me at the range, who obviously spent a few thousand on his kit, feeds it the cheapest ammo.

I could make an exception for the new shooter looking to get practice: only on price, not on safety.

I am not saying that you have to drop the dosh on Hornaday, however, there has to be a happy medium, like Remington, American, CCI, Winchester, or the like.

I have learned to stay away from Wolf, Brown Bear and the other Russian stuff. I have [I guess fortunately] had a few rounds that never went off. They felt as if they totally missed the gunpowder stage. My only question was - "did the next round get the missing powder?"

Do your homework lads and come to your own conclusion, it's you that will be hugging the receiver. A few google searches on generic terms like "ammo sucks" or the like brings up the same culprits.

Wish we cannot do a more scientific analysis as I would like to know more about failure rates.

My advice - stay away from the cheap stuff.

The reason you had some russian rounds that never went off is that their chambering is slightly different to ours, they actually use 5.56 NATO chamberings with their manufacturers.

For example,
My friends Cz in .223 flavour wont chamber wolf rounds, neither will his mates Ruger, whereas his own Remmy 700 will chamber them no problem, due to the remmy being able to chamber military rounds.

some guns just cant chamber them

meathstevie

clivej wrote: »

Totally agree with FISMA although I came to a happy medium with my 223 as its realy like the VMax and Vshok but the american eagle 55 Flat Base HP shot well enough at the range. I always stay away from the remington ammo it never shoots well for me.

Their hornet hollow points do well in my Anschutz...I suppose every rifle has a preferred round

FISMA

Noodle,
You are correct, however, I am going to have to read more into the differences.

I have a Rem 700 in 223. It hates Wolf Ammo.. The bolt resists closing and when opened rarely throws the used cartridge out.

I don't shoot it too much at the range so I have gone to the better manufacturers: Rem and American for making noise and Hornaday for hunting.

FWIW, the wolf packages and casings were marked 223, not 5.56. Probably would not be too bad for an auto.

gunhappy_ie

meathstevie wrote: »

Their hornet hollow points do well in my Anschutz...I suppose every rifle has a preferred round

Yep... chamber size would have a noticable impact on reliability.

FISMA

Sparks, if you have a hot link or bread crumb trail to 12A, please advise.

Is importing the trigger activator illegal? Is the trigger activator illegal in Ireland?

Looks like fun, but not enough to land one in jail.

Sparks

FISMA wrote: »

Sparks, if you have a hot link or bread crumb trail to 12A, please advise.

Here you go, inserted by section 65 of the CJA2006:

12A.—
(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person who shortens the barrel of—

(a) a shot-gun to a length of less than 61 centimetres, or
(b) a rifle to a length of less than 50 centimetres,

is guilty of an offence.

(2) It is not an offence under subsection (1) for a registered firearms dealer to shorten the barrel of a shot-gun or rifle to a length of less than 61 or 50 centimetres respectively if the sole purpose of doing so is to replace a defective part of the barrel with a barrel of not less than 61 or 50 centimetres, as the case may be.

(3) It is an offence for a person to convert into a firearm anything which resembles a firearm but is not capable of discharging a projectile.

(4) Subject to subsection (5), it is an offence to modify a firearm so as to render its reloading mechanism fully automatic or to increase its calibre, irrespective of whether the firearm, as so modified, is a restricted firearm.

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to a firearm designed and manufactured so as to enable barrels of different calibres to be attached to it.

(6) It is an offence for a person (except a registered firearms dealer) to possess without lawful authority or reasonable excuse—

(a) a shot-gun the barrel of which is less than 61 centimetres in length,
(b) a rifle the barrel of which is less than 50 centimetres in length,
(c) a converted firearm mentioned in subsection (3), or
(d) a firearm which has been modified as described in subsection (4).

(7) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment—

(a) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or such shorter term as the court may determine, subject to subsections (9) to (11) of this section or, where subsection (13) of this section applies, to that subsection, and
(b) at the court’s discretion, to a fine of such amount as the court considers appropriate.

(8) The court, in imposing sentence on a person for an offence under this section, may, in particular, have regard to whether the person has a previous conviction for an offence under the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2006, the Offences against the State Acts 1939 to 1998 or the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Act 2005 .

(9) Where a person (other than a person under the age of 18 years) is convicted of an offence under this section, the court shall, in imposing sentence, specify a term of imprisonment of not less than 5 years (in this section referred to as the “minimum term of imprisonment”) as the minimum term of imprisonment to be served by the person.

(10) Subsection (9) does not apply where the court is satisfied that there are exceptional and specific circumstances relating to the offence, or to the person convicted of it, which would make the minimum term of imprisonment unjust in all the circumstances, and for this purpose the court may have regard to any matters it considers appropriate, including—

(a) whether the person pleaded guilty to the offence and, if so—

(i) the stage at which the intention to plead guilty was indicated, and
(ii) the circumstances in which the indication was given,

and
(b) whether the person materially assisted in the investigation of the offence.

(11) The court, in considering for the purposes of subsection (10) of this section whether a sentence of not less than 5 years imprisonment is unjust in all the circumstances, may have regard, in particular, to—

(a) whether the person convicted of the offence has a previous conviction for an offence under the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2006, the Offences Against the State Acts 1939 to 1998 or the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Act 2005 , and
(b) whether the public interest in preventing the unlawful possession or use of firearms would be served by the imposition of a lesser sentence.

(12) Subsections (9) to (11) of this section apply and have effect only in relation to a person convicted of a first offence under this section (other than a person who falls under subsection (13)(b) of this section), and accordingly references in those first-mentioned subsections to an offence under this section are to be construed as references to a first such offence.

(13) Where a person (except a person under the age of 18 years)—

(a) is convicted of a second or subsequent offence under this section,
(b) is convicted of a first offence under this section and has been convicted of an offence under section 15 of the Principal Act or section 26, 27A or 27B of the Firearms Act 1964 ,

the court shall, in imposing sentence, specify a term of imprisonment of not less than 5 years as the minimum term of imprisonment to be served by the person.

(14) Section 27C of the Firearms Act 1964 applies in relation to proceedings for an offence under this section and any minimum term of imprisonment imposed under subsection (9) or (13) in those proceedings.

Note that while section (5) seems to allow you to have fully-auto firearms in specific cases (where the barrel is made for easy change-out, like with the steyr aug), the EU law on class A firearms steps in and doesn't allow it. Unless you've a note from the Minister saying you can (and your licence doesn't cover that because it's not issued by the Minister).


And as to what 12A(3) means for deactivation of firearms, well, that's an open question until it goes before a court.

gunhappy_ie

FISMA wrote: »

Sparks, if you have a hot link or bread crumb trail to 12A, please advise.

Is importing the trigger activator illegal? Is the trigger activator illegal in Ireland?

Looks like fun, but not enough to land one in jail.

I believe sparks is referring to: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0026/sec0065.html#sec65

Section 4:

(4) Subject to subsection (5), it is an offence to modify a firearm so as to render its reloading mechanism fully automatic or to increase its calibre, irrespective of whether the firearm, as so modified, is a restricted firearm.

However.... That device doesnt convert a gun to F/A. The gun is still classed as semiautomatic under not only Irish law but several other countries (it is why these devices are legal in the US)

“semi-automatic firearms” means firearms that reload automatically from a magazine or cylinder each time a round is discharged but can fire not more than

one round with a single pull on the trigger;


The device mearly continually trips the trigger, faster or more consistant than what a user might do if they were to use there finger.

I dont know about the legality here but practicality ..... they are completely useless. another gimic developed to make a buck in the US maket where people cant either afford a F/A sear or cannot have F/A by law in there state.

Imagine trying to hold your rifle ans well as crank the handcrank ..... rounds would go everywhere ! not to mention that S/A firearms arent designed for that kind of abuse.

FISMA

Sparks and GunHappy,
Thanks for the info.

Probably best to not go down this route. True, the activator does not change anything about the action on, say a Ruger 10/22, but the rate at which the trigger could be pulled.

However, if you get landed into jail for a while, arrested on a firearms violation, and [hopefully] later let go, you've still been arrested on a firearms violation.

In general, when I find I must debate my gun friendly mates on a gun law, I definitely would want to debate the same in a court of law.

I can just imagine them pulling out some other lesser known definition of an automatic weapon that is classified as such due to rate of fire.

However, on a 10/22, you could easily shoot this without any rising. Wouldn't recommend it on the 223 auto's there.

So I guess there's no hope of this

Sparks

I don't think so FISMA, and I know there's no hope of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPWhLTPnQVc

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abTGAP7tG0Y

nor even this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4i9_kkg30o

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think so FISMA, and I know there's no hope of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPWhLTPnQVc

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abTGAP7tG0Y

nor even this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4i9_kkg30o

Ooh I want that mini machinegun something terrible

Hibrion

I dunno lads, you'd clear out a field of rabbits fairly quick with one of them so you might get it licensed for vermin control;)