Building Natural Stone with Granite Cills

creedp

Hi

My builder is just about to start building blocks for external walls. We have natural stone on front outcrops and up to now understood that the block walls would be built first and then the stone mason would come along and build the stone. However, I have just been informed by the builder that he and another guy on his crew would now be building the stone and would build it at same time as blocks. He advised this is necesary because we have granite cills and the stone needs to be built before they are installed. So the new plan is to build the blocks and stone to 1st floor cill level and then install cills and carry on up to 2nd floor cill level. I'm unsure if this is the most appropriate way to do this and would appreciate all views on this approach.


Regards

YourAverageJoe

cills will sit on the stone only so the blocks can all be built up and stone and cills added later, in my opinion (not blocklayer by the way)

clint_eastman

In my case, all opes on normal block walls and block work were completed with the cills being put in at the end. In the sections that have stone, the same applied. The stone mason is now on-site and building up the stone to cill level, installs the cill and carries on as normal. These cills could not have gone in with the blocks as they would've had no stone to take the weight (wider cill to allow for wider wall + stone).
I can see the logic of your builder and I don't see any issue other than maybe a concern that he may not be a stone mason and is trying to cut corners by doing it himself. It looks as if you have a builder appointed, whereas I'm gone direct labour.

creedp

Thanks for the replies and they seem to agree with my own views on this matter. Another issue I have with this approach is that surely it delays the building of the blocks as I'm sure the blocks could be put up much faster thereby allowing hollowcore and roof to go on quicker than if the process has to wait for the stone to be built up at the same time.

JuniorB

The solution on our site was to put the cills in and put in a steel bracket support attached to the wall underneath. See photo attached - highlighted in red..
Sorry don't have a clearer photo.

Cills were required to measure for the windows - which were still ordered too late !!

dpjobrien

Our roof was on before the stone was. I would prefer to have a stone mason build the stone all the blocklayer needs to is leave mesh wall ties stilll out of the joints in the blockwork so the stone mason can tie the stone to the blockwork. The stone masons usually fit the cills when building the stone. Depending on the stone sometimes the deeper concrete cills can look as nice as granite, less expensive.

clint_eastman

JuniorB wrote: »

Cills were required to measure the for the windows - which were still ordered too late !!

the story of my life build....

creedp

I've been back to the builder and I have persuaded him to build the blocks first and then get in a stone mason to build al the stone in one go.

Thanks for your comments

jwshooter

when im doing a house i like the windows in as i can get a better finish .

its not a good plan to do the stone along with the block work ,especially in a damp time .the stone will get slobbered in mortar .

also DPC gets messed about with .

Poor Uncle Tom

dpjobrien wrote: »

Our roof was on before the stone was. I would prefer to have a stone mason build the stone all the blocklayer needs to is leave mesh wall ties stilll out of the joints in the blockwork so the stone mason can tie the stone to the blockwork. The stone masons usually fit the cills when building the stone. Depending on the stone sometimes the deeper concrete cills can look as nice as granite, less expensive.

Mesh is not the best to use. It is much better to use wall ties, after all that's what they are for. The expanded mesh is usually cut from a roll and is galvanised. You must assume the stone will be wet and the mesh will rust along the cut lines and erode away.

jwshooter

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Mesh is not the best to use. It is much better to use wall ties, after all that's what they are for. The expanded mesh is usually cut from a roll and is galvanised. You must assume the stone will be wet and the mesh will rust along the cut lines and erode away.

wall ties are not a good job , mesh is much better .

pin ties into concrete are in my opinion the best off the lot .

Poor Uncle Tom

jwshooter wrote: »

wall ties are not a good job , mesh is much better .

pin ties into concrete are in my opinion the best off the lot .

Mesh is much easier to work with but when the galvanising is cut through, the fear is that it would rust through, causing the rust weep marks at some spots on the stonework joints.

jwshooter

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Mesh is much easier to work with but when the galvanising is cut through, the fear is that it would rust through, causing the rust weep marks at some spots on the stonework joints.

possibly ,but every thing is possible .

your talking a surface area on the mesh of mms .in 23 years of laying stone i have never seen rust marks from mesh .
block ties are not great as they are hard to manipulate into the rite position ,ie on the stone ,not behind it .

also from a safety point of view i would flatten all mesh as i lay the blocks ,this cant be done with block ties .a man could lose a eye bending down laying a stone from protruding wire

FergusD

There are two types of mesh, galvanised and stainless steel - guess which you should use? The S/S mesh was something our builders provider claimed never to have heard of, but both our engineer and blocklayer wanted it rather than the galvanised version.

Fergus.

JuniorB

Here's a couple of better photos of the cill 'supports' in place..

jwshooter

JuniorB wrote: »

Here's a couple of better photos of the cill 'supports' in place..

what way are you doing the reveals , your returning the stone into the cavity by the looks of it .

JuniorB

JW - not sure how to explain. A bit of 2x1 on outer block, stone built up to that, then remove 2x1 and plaster level to stone. See photo, window in background is probably easier to see.. delighted with the stone work overall.
Getting stone lintels from quarry too so looking forward to seeing them in place!

More photos here.. http://carrickaneha.blogspot.com/

jwshooter

JuniorB wrote: »

JW - not sure how to explain. A bit of 2x1 on outer block, stone built up to that, then remove 2x1 and plaster level to stone. See photo, window in background is probably easier to see.. delighted with the stone work overall.
Getting stone lintels from quarry too so looking forward to seeing them in place!

More photos here.. http://carrickaneha.blogspot.com/

unusual way to do it .why did you not bring the stone out to the edge of the out side block . it would give a bigger window board and a brighter room .

jwshooter

jwshooter wrote: »

unusual way to do it .why did you not bring the stone out to the edge of the out side block . it would give a bigger window board and a brighter room .

p.s nice work BTW

JuniorB

Cheers. Have an exposed enough site so was told this way was a safer finish There was lots of discussions between the professionals .... not much input from me!

galwaytt

....I was going to say, but now I see the pics of you're stone work on-going (very nice btw !), that walls behind stonework should be scratch coat plastered (as waterproofing).

JuniorB

galwaytt wrote: »

....I was going to say, but now I see the pics of you're stone work on-going (very nice btw !), that walls behind stonework should be scratch coat plastered (as waterproofing).

Cheers Galwaytt - that would cost money ... we don't have any of that left!!

jwshooter

galwaytt wrote: »

....I was going to say, but now I see the pics of you're stone work on-going (very nice btw !), that walls behind stonework should be scratch coat plastered (as waterproofing).

waist of money . water proofer the motor would be a help ,but i would not rely on it .

DPC is your only sure bet .

jwshooter

JuniorB wrote: »

Cheers. Have an exposed enough site so was told this way was a safer finish There was lots of discussions between the professionals .... not much input from me!

not really as your bringing your DPC inside

hbarstone

of course stainless steel mesh best, over years used both, galv mesh, block ties and galvo band, all worked well

cills usually fit as i build but like photos shown can be supported by metal l bracket or wooden l bracket till stone supports

hbarstone

usually depends on stone, granit cills to granite stone, limestone cills to lime stone, sandstone to sandstone,was old way, some modern build anything goes, really matter personal choice

roof should be on and soffit fitted, then neater finish stone to soffit