Example of how come we are where we are

jmayo

Not sure if anyone has been watching the Seahorses Ireland documentary on RTE1 @0830 pm.

It is about marine biology students/researchers setting up a venture to breed seahorses which are an endangered species due to Chinese using them as an aphrodisiac.
The two guys that started this venture decided to try and make a commerical entreprise out of it.
Thus they entered some entrepreneur/startup enterprise competitions and ended up winning two.

Anyway last night went through another phase of their development where one of the guys had left ot go back to working in college and the other guy, Kealan Doyle, was left fighting the bank trying to get funding to continue to stay afloat.

The reason I am posting this here is that the year appeared to have been 2005/2006.

Here was an enterprise founded by Irish people, using technology and methods developed in Ireland that were ground breaking, which it appears was not getting much leeway from the banks or possibly form the university who were their landlord.

It looked like sustainable enterprise which with some restructuring might turn around.
Fair enough if they were losing money short term, but yet this was at the same time the same banks were lending Irish developers and builders silly money to develop property at the height of a construction bubble.

And we wonder why we are where we are. :rolleyes:

I think the whole thing just goes to show that this myth about indigeneous Irish startup enterprises, niche industries, future knowledge economy is just that, a bloody myth.

Anyway I am not going to reveal how things turned out in case one is watching the series.

BTW here is another website where one of the guys is now involved:
http://shop.seahorseaquariums.com/store/

froog

great documentary. fair play to them.

ei.sdraob

jmayo wrote: »

Not sure if anyone has been watching the Seahorses Ireland documentary on RTE1 @0830 pm.

It is about marine biology students/researchers setting up a venture to breed seahorses which are an endangered species due to Chinese using them as an aphrodisiac.
The two guys that started this venture decided to try and make a commerical entreprise out of it.
Thus they entered some entrepreneur/startup enterprise competitions and ended up winning two.

Anyway last night went through another phase of their development where one of the guys had left ot go back to working in college and the other guy, Kealan Doyle, was left fighting the bank trying to get funding to continue to stay afloat.

The reason I am posting this here is that the year appeared to have been 2005/2006.

Here was an enterprise founded by Irish people, using technology and methods developed in Ireland that were ground breaking, which it appears was not getting much leeway from the banks or possibly form the university who were their landlord.

It looked like sustainable enterprise which with some restructuring might turn around.
Fair enough if they were losing money short term, but yet this was at the same time the same banks were lending Irish developers and builders silly money to develop property at the height of a construction bubble.

And we wonder why we are where we are. :rolleyes:

I think the whole thing just goes to show that this myth about indigeneous Irish startup enterprises, niche industries, future knowledge economy is just that, a bloody myth.

Anyway I am not going to reveal how things turned out in case one is watching the series.

BTW here is another website where one of the guys is now involved:
http://shop.seahorseaquariums.com/store/

I haven't seen the episode

But yes starting a business here in Ireland is daunting and it pisses me off to no end seeing people here discuss policies that would only make things worse

you could have the brightest people in the world (debatable) but when put against the beuracratic machine of people in cushy and safe jobs who wouldnt know anything about innovating or being more productive for that matter

they will fail

ejmaztec

It seems that every business plan that wasn't based on property development, was gone over with a fine-tooth comb by the banks, and was risk-assessed using the relevant criteria, before being thrown out.

If a property could be put up as collateral, however, you could get anything out of them, no matter what pea-brained plan you had.

maninasia

Yep, you could get a loan for the prospective property purchase if you showed you had a tenant supposedly waiting to move into the building. Never mind that the tenant was probably your own company or your mates company. You could also use your mortgaged property as collateral but purchasing yet more property on loans...crazy crazy stuff.

kuntboy

What things could the government do to make life easier for entrepreneurs?

fontanalis

And yet this still goes on.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2010/0714/1224274649384.html

jmayo

kuntboy wrote: »

What things could the government do to make life easier for entrepreneurs?

As of now they could force banks, that we the taxpayers are shareholders and owners of, to actually loan to small businesses.

They could have set up something like the old ICC/ACC that would lend to business and industry, not entrepeneurs who specialsie in concrete, bricks, mortar, hotel rooms and bars, rather than have poured money into insolvent defunct banking institutions.
This entity should only have been run by fresh blood brought in from overseas with no involvment of ex Irish bank managers.

As of now they could acquire empty office space owned by certain NAMA bound developers and offer it at low rents with admin & IT facilities thrown in to startups.
How much office space does Carroll own around Dublin ?

They could do something constructive (not the joke that eamon ryan dreamt up) about the standard of broadband infrastructure that is available to business thorughout the country.

They could out some of unnecessary beurocracy such as filling out forms for the CSO.

They could force our state owned elctricity supplier to offer better deals.

(And please none of the sh*** about it being a private company since minister decides board and state is majority shareholder.)

jmayo

fontanalis wrote: »

And yet this still goes on.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2010/0714/1224274649384.html

Unbelievable.

THE NORTH county Dublin town of Swords is to get a substantial new neighbourhood following a decision by Fingal County Council to approve a local area plan for 270 acres along the link road between Swords and Ashbourne.

The site is 4km (2.4 miles) from Swords and will eventually have a population of about 10,000.

So we are creating more urban sprawl, more housing estates with no proper public transport and more houses that are not needed. :rolleyes:

The development company is handing over 75 acres for a regional park planned for the northwest corner of Oldtown. There are also plans to enhance Rathbeale Archaeological Park, which was rediscovered in 2003 when ancient skeletal remains were uncovered.

Extensive archaeological work and historical evidence has confirmed that a circular complex was laid out after the 7th century and remained in use for a considerable time. The site is known locally as “the bone field”.

Remember how we are always saying certain connected parties know where all the skeltons are buried ?

Are these the same skeltons ?

It would make sense after all North Dublin did have ray burke, cj haughey and bertie ahern.

ei.sdraob

kuntboy wrote: »

What things could the government do to make life easier for entrepreneurs?

get out of the way, remove red tape and simplify taxes and regulations

jmayo wrote: »

As of now they could force banks, that we the taxpayers are shareholders and owners of, to actually loan to small businesses.

no that would end in tears (i know you have good intentions but no terrible idea, we just after coming out of period of lax lending) in the long run

alot of business in Ireland got involved in property despite it not being their main area of business

better solution is to setup a venture fund/capital company and model it after any of the venture funds out there

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

get out of the way, remove red tape and simplify taxes and regulations


o that would end in tears (i know you have good intentions but no terrible idea, we just after coming out of period of lax lending) in the long run

alot of business in Ireland got involved in property despite it not being their main area of business

better solution is to setup a venture fund/capital company and model it after any of the venture funds out there

Ah jaysus I am not talking about lending for property or construction as a property investment.
It would only be allowed if for expansion purposes and not for speculation or development as something else.

I though I said somewhere about not letting property anywhere near the these entities ?

The joint venture thing is probably something very worthwhile.

BTW isn't biffo finally two years late now mouthing about a joint venture capital fund ?

SeaFields

I watched this today, both episodes so far, on RTE player. I'm a graduate and there is a kinda trend in the media that I should be going out and starting up my own business since there are no jobs about.

I'll tel ye this much tho...that program would scare the sh!te out of anyone starting up their own business venture.

Banks ringing demanding money, investors sending you round in circles before eventually pulling out, the landlord not be very accommodating and lastly the effect the whole process had on the personal lives of those involved.

kuntboy

I ask this in the vain hope that someone in power actually reads here. I get the feeling from some of the things I hear occasionally in the media that maybe some do, or if not here then irisheconomy.ie or thepropertypin.com.

Bankruptcy laws are another area for revision, yes?

Welease

kuntboy wrote: »

Bankruptcy laws are another area for revision, yes?

Yes.. but unfortunately a lot of people prefer to see people fail and suffer for the rest of their lives for any risks taken... while noding sagely when bemoaning our lack of innovation and reliance on FDI.

ei.sdraob

Welease wrote: »

Yes.. but unfortunately a lot of people prefer to see people fail and suffer for the rest of their lives for any risks taken... while noding sagely when bemoaning our lack of innovation and reliance on FDI.

Your confusing personal bankruptcy vs company bankruptcy in Ireland

the company bankruptcy in Ireland is quite reasonable and allows you plenty of room to fail and start again in business, provided you didnt give the lender a personal guarantee
its extremely baffling that people gave personal guarantees giving away the protections afforded by a LIMITED company

in fact I knew a person (scammer be another word) who bankrupted twice before, loosing AIB a couple of million, the loan didnt come with personal guarantee strings attached

now personal guarantee laws are a different kettle of fish

Welease

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Your confusing personal bankruptcy vs company bankruptcy in Ireland

the company bankruptcy in Ireland is quite reasonable and allows you plenty of room to fail and start again in business, provided you didnt give the lender a personal guarantee
its extremely baffling that people gave personal guarantees giving away the protections afforded by a LIMITED company

in fact I knew a person (scammer be another word) who bankrupted twice before, loosing AIB a couple of million, the loan didnt come with personal guarantee strings attached

now personal guarantee laws are a different kettle of fish

Yes, you are correct I was talking about personal (12 year) bankrupty..
(primarily because a lot of necessary funding was being secured on personal guarantees before funding would be extended).

ei.sdraob

Welease wrote: »

Yes, you are correct I was talking about personal (12 year) bankrupty..
(primarily because a lot of necessary funding was being secured on personal guarantees before funding would be extended).

Yes I think alot of people thought that getting these loans with personal guarantees is a risk worth taking since property can ever go up in price

To be honest that's a risk they took knowing full well what they are doing, if they didnt know this basic but important information about bankruptcy in Ireland then what the hell where they doing in business in first place

Welease

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes I think alot of people thought that getting these loans with personal guarantees is a risk worth taking since property can ever go up in price

To be honest that's a risk they took knowing full well what they are doing, if they didnt know this basic but important information about bankruptcy in Ireland then what the hell where they doing in business in first place

lol i don't think anyone can or will argue with that (but I'm sure someone will )...

However, the problem was also with the banks.. they (in a lot of cases) had no expertise (or interest) to understand viable business plans etc. outside of the "me buy flat.. me become rich" mentality.. So they would resort to forcing a business to secure their loans personally before extending credit. Which rightly or wrong people did.

ei.sdraob

Welease wrote: »

lol i don't think anyone can or will argue with that (but I'm sure someone will )...

However, the problem was also with the banks.. they (in a lot of cases) had no expertise (or interest) to understand viable business plans etc. outside of the "me buy flat.. me become rich" mentality.. So they would resort to forcing a business to secure their loans personally before extending credit. Which rightly or wrong people did.

yeh in agreement

one point worth making is that lax personal bankruptcy in US (like property taxes) didnt stop a property bubble from forming, banks still lended recklessly

tho it seems they are recovering faster since people can just walk away, and prices hit the bottom faster

Welease

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yeh in agreement

one point worth making is that lax personal bankruptcy in US (like property taxes) didnt stop a property bubble from forming, banks still lended recklessly

tho it seems they are recovering faster since people can just walk away, and prices hit the bottom faster

Well unfortunately I have always felt that the banks have been lax in lending, it just became worse during the bubble.. There seems to be a real lack of real life/business experience in some of the staff who are involved in lending decisions, and nowadays it appears (anecdotal evidence) to have gotten worse with many refusing to make decisions and passing the decision back to head office...

I've seen some of the strangest shops open (and then go bust) in short times in many places I have lived.. And they always left me wondering whothef*** decided on and funded that operation, and honestly thought it would make money..