Writing short story makes my head hurt

jackthelad321 · 14-07-2010 7:13am #1

hello there. Trying to write a short story, around 1000- 1500 words. Mired in the middle.I know a lot of writing is trial and error, but, having said that, does anyone want to offer me some thoughts on the following queries:

Narrative mode: Writing in the first person seems easier to me. Third person never flows (which this story is in), I also wonder can i explain as much in the 3rd person, how much does a narrator know of those he's commenting on?

Using Italics: I have read 3 books lately that made fantastic use of italics. I just feel pretentious doing it. When and where is appropriate, do you feel?

Dialogue: Do you use ''this'' or 'this?' is there a difference? is it taste? some use the first, others the second. Also the structure of dialogue always muddles me up. Keep it standard to begin with? How much should you add to a dialogue, that is qualifiers ?(i think their called)

Place: I hate putting people in a country, town etc. It seems then you are then obliged (or under pressure) to do regional accents and slang. i'm not from Dublin and i certainly have no right to be using their slang. Thoughts?

Structure: Is a short story different to a novel, do you have to introduce things in different ways. or is is all fair game IYO?

Tenses: Wavering between the present tense and the past. This always trips me up. i want to keep to the past but the present often slips in and, when i revies it, it seems out of place, but making it all the same tense seems laborious.

I have more but here would be a start, if you guys don't mind offering some thoughts on the subject. Any good websites that cover some of these queries??

Much appreciated
Jack

sceptre · 14-07-2010 12:14pm

Moving to Creative Writing:)

dawvee · 14-07-2010 2:21pm

jackthelad321 wrote: »

Narrative mode: Writing in the first person seems easier to me. Third person never flows (which this story is in), I also wonder can i explain as much in the 3rd person, how much does a narrator know of those he's commenting on?

IMHO, when starting to write, 3rd person is far better to stick with. While you can't explain as much in terms of the character's thoughts and motivations, but you can describe action far, far more easily. With first person, it's too easy to get windy without ever getting to the actual story. No one gives a rat's arse what your character is thinking if nothing is happening.

jackthelad321 wrote: »

Using Italics: I have read 3 books lately that made fantastic use of italics. I just feel pretentious doing it. When and where is appropriate, do you feel?

There are three cases I can think off of the top of my head where italics are appropriate.

1. Foreign/untranslated words. There's a thread about that a bit further down the board, but the consensus seems to be: don't overdo it. If an untranslated word doesn't add anything to the story as is, skip it. Use English instead.

2. Extended quotations. This can either be a quote from another work, or a piece of written text from within your own fictional world. If you use either, it'd better be important to the story. For example, none of J.R.R. Tolkein's "I just included this poem/song because I wrote it in-character and thought it was good" nonsense.

3. Emphasis. This is probably the most obvious, but I find that most of the time you can do without italics for emphasis if you write your dialogue well. It should be clear from what they say (and how you describe it).

jackthelad321 wrote: »

Dialogue: Do you use ''this'' or 'this?' is there a difference? is it taste? some use the first, others the second. Also the structure of dialogue always muddles me up. Keep it standard to begin with? How much should you add to a dialogue, that is qualifiers ?(i think their called)

Double quotes for dialogue, single quotes for a nested quotation. That's the way I was taught, anyway. I don't think it makes a huge difference.

As for structure, qualifiers are fine, paired actions are better. Paired actions are to tie the dialogue back into the narrative. They give us a sense of a conversation happening between people, and not just talking heads.

Don't overuse qualifiers, either. 'Said' is fine 95% of the time, and it's practically a non-word so it doesn't really get repetitive.

jackthelad321 wrote: »

Place: I hate putting people in a country, town etc. It seems then you are then obliged (or under pressure) to do regional accents and slang. i'm not from Dublin and i certainly have no right to be using their slang. Thoughts?

Accents can be inferred, and in most cases it's better that you don't go full bore with phonetic spelling to convey them, as it can put off readers who might not even know the accent/dialect in question. Slang can be useful to add colour, though, so if you've got a particular location in mind with very distinctive slang, learn a few words and put them in. You don't have to go nuts, though.

jackthelad321 wrote: »

Structure: Is a short story different to a novel, do you have to introduce things in different ways. or is is all fair game IYO?

A short story quite a bit different from a novel. In a short story, you have to get all the important bits in there within the first paragraph or two so you have room to develop them. With a novel, you can unravel things more slowly.

In either case though, you need to give the reader something to grab them right from the start. Character and conflict are the two things that will grab people. The rest can be filled in as you go along.

jackthelad321 wrote: »

Tenses: Wavering between the present tense and the past. This always trips me up. i want to keep to the past but the present often slips in and, when i revies it, it seems out of place, but making it all the same tense seems laborious.

Get your tenses right, and consistent. It's just sloppy if you don't. Can you really say "I went to the shop" if you haven't even been to the shop yet? It's significant, yes it can be a pain, but it does matter. Pick a tense and stick with it. If you confuse the reader, you lose the reader.

cobsie · 14-07-2010 3:33pm

I write short stories and have never written anything else - it is just the genre I've always been drawn to, so I've thought a lot about some of these things...here's my two cents!

Short stories are ALL about narrative economy, efficient use of language (i.e., RUTHLESS editing) and a distinctive voice presented immediately, within the very opening lines. They are much less forgiving of loose plotting, sloppy characterisation etc...everything extraneous has to be cut out.

On the plus side, 1000-1500 words is VERY short for a story. Most narrative stories that are published in magazines and collections are between 4,000-6,000 words, so maybe you have more leeway than you think to expand your ideas!

Narrative mode: write in whatever voice comes naturally. First, third, third-person plural (Then We Came to the End by Joshua Ferris), it doesn't matter as long as the voice is real. Trust your instinct.

Using Italics: JD Salinger and Junot Diaz, two writers who could hardly be more different from each other, make brilliant use of italics, for different reasons. Inflection in dialect (Salinger) or Spanish slang (Diaz)...I would avoid using italics to try to somehow underline the significance of a word in the text. You need a stronger word, if the meaning can't be conveyed otherwise.

Dialogue: Many writers don't use any quotation marks at all. Double or single - these are just stylistic decisions, don't distract yourself with them. That someone is speaking is all that needs to be conveyed, whether it's through quotations or just by a line break. James Joyce never used punctuation!! As for qualifiers in dialogue - less is most definitely more! you are not writing a film script, you only have to give the impression of naturalism. It's the hardest nut to crack, so nothing but practice will help there.

Place: A sense of place in one way or another is really crucial to short stories, but on a much more micro level than simply what city they are in. The sense of a room, a home, a place of work, a car...this is what counts.

Structure: IMHO the structure of short stories is much, much tighter - generally, the timescale is condensed but not always. What is condensed is the narrative arc - usually a single thematic thread, a snapshot of an event or an emotional turn - and the focus, emotional or temporal is usually quite narrow. This is the major difference and dictates everything about the structure of a story, compared to a novel. No room for baggy plotting and rambling characterizations...

Tenses: Use whatever fits the story best. The present tense adds pace to a narrative and can be very effective when used with the first person. Past tense give more scope for narrative jumps and non-linear action. Both are perfectly good options - the only thing that matters is what best serves the story.

Finally, there are LOADS of good sites online that will give you tips on writing, interviews with authors, etc. These can be very useful. Read extensively, try to take note of things you particularly enjoy in the text and keep it in mind when you are writing - reading good authors is the best way to learn technique. And lastly...ain't no way around just plain old doing the work...

Good luck!

[/QUOTE]

EileenG · 14-07-2010 8:35pm

I tend to use the idea that a short story is a snapshot. Stuff happened before the story started, and more things will happen after it is over, but the bit you write about is where some significant change happened.

A short story is often bracketed in some way, for instance, from the beginning of a car journey to the end. From meeting someone to leaving them. There may be a bit of flashback in the course of the story to establish any necessary background, but use as little as possible. And it usually involves one plot thread, and very rarely more than three people.

Don't get fancy. Keep your writing simple. Try not to let sentences get too long, and keep adjectives under control.

You do need a sense of place, but you can be very subtle about this, and you certainly don't need any sort of phonetic accent. If your reader knows the accent, she'll read it in that accent herself. If she doesn't, your trying to spell it out will just annoy her.

pickarooney · 15-07-2010 10:40pm

Hi Jack,

I don't have much experience writing short stories (or much else for that matter) but my take on these questions would be as follows

Narrative mode:
If you feel more comfortable writing in the first person, then go with it. If you're struggling to get something together, take one obstacle out by not trying to force yourself to use a style you don't really 'feel'. You can always give other perspectives a shot another time, or even rewrite your story in another way later. The main thing is to get a finished story and polish it until you're happy with it.

Using Italics:
Emphasis, mostly, and the occasional foreign word. Unless you feel that something really needs italics, don't use them. I would say they're largely unnecessary outside of dialogue, and even then should be used sparingly.

Dialogue:
British English tends to use double quotes for speech and single quotes for speech withing speech. American English uses the opposite, as far as I know. You can use either, or neither, and this is nothing more than typography and shouldn't worry you until everything else is perfect. It's about as important as font typeface or margin size.

The only pointers I can really give on dialogue are that it has to sound natural for the characters. I would say that you should know your characters inside out before you write any dialogue for them, even a simple "Hello". This is the only way you'll know yourself if this person would say these words in this situation. If you want the dialogue to be sharp and witty, make sure that your character matches this description (by this I mean the image of him in you head). Conversely, well-tuned dialogue will tell the reader more about your character than pages of adjectives or backstory.

Place:
Your characters will always be somewhere, even if you choose never to reveal where that is. You don't necessarily have to know or say what town they're in or from and should never feel like you have to have them speak a certain way. You are the writer, they're your characters and you can make them do whatever you want. Unless you really enjoy experimenting with slang and phonetic accents, avoid it as if it's not done perfectly it's far worse than if it's not done at all. This is even true for film - nobody cares that much that the American lead is using his own accent for a German character but everyone will notice if he puts on a bad German accent.

Structure:
There are no hard and fast rules, but it's usually a good idea to write only as much of a story as will fit into the wordcount allowed. By this I mean, if you're writing 2000 words you can forget about telling us the family tree of the main character going back three centuries and get straight into telling us what happened to him on the precise occasion you're telling us about.

Tenses:
You need to get this right. It can completely throw a reader if you use inconsistent tenses in a passage of text and often it's just plain wrong.
you can of course tell parts of the story in the past and parts in the present (and even the future perfect continuous if you feel like it) as long as there is consistency within a passage. Dialogue in a passage told in the past tense can of course be in the present tense.

cobsie wrote:

third-person plural (Then We Came to the End by Joshua Ferris),

That's first person plural, no?

cobsie · 16-07-2010 10:11am

pickarooney wrote: »

That's first person plural, no?

D'oh! That's what I meant. And it's bloody good, too!

jackthelad321 · 17-07-2010 7:06am

Sorry i don't know how to quote everybody, somehow i wrote everything and realised i had to put my words in bold. Sorry for how ridiculous this looks!

dawvee wrote: »

IMHO, when starting to write, 3rd person is far better to stick with. While you can't explain as much in terms of the character's thoughts and motivations, but you can describe action far, far more easily. With first person, it's too easy to get windy without ever getting to the actual story. No one gives a rat's arse what your character is thinking if nothing is happening.

Yea, thanks. I have used more dialogue to set the scene, not description. I agree with the windy statement, i can't really ramble on in the form i've chosen.

There are three cases I can think off of the top of my head where italics are appropriate.

1. Foreign/untranslated words. There's a thread about that a bit further down the board, but the consensus seems to be: don't overdo it. If an untranslated word doesn't add anything to the story as is, skip it. Use English instead.

2. Extended quotations. This can either be a quote from another work, or a piece of written text from within your own fictional world. If you use either, it'd better be important to the story. For example, none of J.R.R. Tolkein's "I just included this poem/song because I wrote it in-character and thought it was good" nonsense.

3. Emphasis. This is probably the most obvious, but I find that most of the time you can do without italics for emphasis if you write your dialogue well. It should be clear from what they say (and how you describe it).

Just have the one in so far, for emphasis. i think i'll lose it in revision.

Double quotes for dialogue, single quotes for a nested quotation. That's the way I was taught, anyway. I don't think it makes a huge difference.

I went with single quotes, don't know what nested quotation means. I am starting to see why it's trival thinkinh too much about this

As for structure, qualifiers are fine, paired actions are better. Paired actions are to tie the dialogue back into the narrative. They give us a sense of a conversation happening between people, and not just talking heads.

Again, paired actions, could you elaborate? I'm sure i know what you mean just not the terminoligy. By qualifiers i meant, ''he though to himself, moodily'' things like that, especially the adverb. I know realise i meant to say attributives. I think these things weaken things i write.

Don't overuse qualifiers, either. 'Said' is fine 95% of the time, and it's practically a non-word so it doesn't really get repetitive.

I do tend to say things like, he muttered, he grumbles, she joked, she teased. I'm unsure if that is good for the writing.

Accents can be inferred, and in most cases it's better that you don't go full bore with phonetic spelling to convey them, as it can put off readers who might not even know the accent/dialect in question. Slang can be useful to add colour, though, so if you've got a particular location in mind with very distinctive slang, learn a few words and put them in. You don't have to go nuts, though.

In the few short stories i have written i have never put a place on them, i just tried to make it a recognisable place, like a bar, a house, another family house, university campus. Maybe i'm shortening myself, but i prefer to keep myself wondering where they are from. Just a personal thing.

AS for the inferred accents, i guess if i have written it well, perhaps people could see the characters talking in a certain accent.

A short story quite a bit different from a novel. In a short story, you have to get all the important bits in there within the first paragraph or two so you have room to develop them. With a novel, you can unravel things more slowly.

I think i have done this so-so in a few stories. I see you point, especially as i'm doing 1500 words, the reason for the limitation is to try to train myself to convey as much as possible, so when i branch out, i can hopefully inject heavy meaning if needed. It's just a tial and error things.

In either case though, you need to give the reader something to grab them right from the start. Character and conflict are the two things that will grab people. The rest can be filled in as you go along.

I think i have attempted this reasonably. Can be much inproved of course.

Get your tenses right, and consistent. It's just sloppy if you don't. Can you really say "I went to the shop" if you haven't even been to the shop yet? It's significant, yes it can be a pain, but it does matter. Pick a tense and stick with it. If you confuse the reader, you lose the reader.

I really only have an issue with past and present, I may describe something in the past tense and then continue to describe the action etc. in the present. For some reason i can't come up with an example now but they're an issue.

Thanks for your thoughts, i'd appreciate any more should you wish to share them. I might put the story up in a while, so you can see if i got the nuts and bolts right. Maybe, i'm shy with my writing, i have to be honest.

EileenG · 18-07-2010 5:52pm

Dialogue is essential to almost every story, but be careful about using it to set a scene. Unless the reader knows who is talking and where they are, you can lose them very quickly.

In your opening, you need to establish where and when the story is set, and give some idea of what the story is about (horror, love, killing spree) all while trying to grab the reader's attention.

Nested quotes are when you have something like "The doctor told you to 'Prick his boil', not ...." It doesn't arise that often.

Paired actions: "Don't speak to me like that." She slammed down the menu.
He glared at her. "I'll speak to you any way I like."
The waiter approached silently. "Would anyone care for the wine list?"

The little bit of action that goes with the speech tells you who is saying what.

Don't mumble, joke, grumble, tease etc. It calls attention to the writing, rather than letting the characters get on with the story.

Try not to stick adverbs on speech tags as in "He thought to himself, moodily". It slows down the action. And unless your story is about telepaths, you can assume that anything he thinks is to himself.

Bar, house, campus etc is good, but remember that you may be imagining one in Dublin or Cork, while your reader might be imagining one in London or Lahore.

jackthelad321 · 24-07-2010 4:41am

cobsie wrote: »

I write short stories and have never written anything else - it is just the genre I've always been drawn to, so I've thought a lot about some of these things...here's my two cents!

Short stories are ALL about narrative economy, efficient use of language (i.e., RUTHLESS editing) and a distinctive voice presented immediately, within the very opening lines. They are much less forgiving of loose plotting, sloppy characterisation etc...everything extraneous has to be cut out.

On the plus side, 1000-1500 words is VERY short for a story. Most narrative stories that are published in magazines and collections are between 4,000-6,000 words, so maybe you have more leeway than you think to expand your ideas!

Narrative mode: write in whatever voice comes naturally. First, third, third-person plural (Then We Came to the End by Joshua Ferris), it doesn't matter as long as the voice is real. Trust your instinct.

Using Italics: JD Salinger and Junot Diaz, two writers who could hardly be more different from each other, make brilliant use of italics, for different reasons. Inflection in dialect (Salinger) or Spanish slang (Diaz)...I would avoid using italics to try to somehow underline the significance of a word in the text. You need a stronger word, if the meaning can't be conveyed otherwise.

Dialogue: Many writers don't use any quotation marks at all. Double or single - these are just stylistic decisions, don't distract yourself with them. That someone is speaking is all that needs to be conveyed, whether it's through quotations or just by a line break. James Joyce never used punctuation!! As for qualifiers in dialogue - less is most definitely more! you are not writing a film script, you only have to give the impression of naturalism. It's the hardest nut to crack, so nothing but practice will help there.

Place: A sense of place in one way or another is really crucial to short stories, but on a much more micro level than simply what city they are in. The sense of a room, a home, a place of work, a car...this is what counts.

Structure: IMHO the structure of short stories is much, much tighter - generally, the timescale is condensed but not always. What is condensed is the narrative arc - usually a single thematic thread, a snapshot of an event or an emotional turn - and the focus, emotional or temporal is usually quite narrow. This is the major difference and dictates everything about the structure of a story, compared to a novel. No room for baggy plotting and rambling characterizations...

Tenses: Use whatever fits the story best. The present tense adds pace to a narrative and can be very effective when used with the first person. Past tense give more scope for narrative jumps and non-linear action. Both are perfectly good options - the only thing that matters is what best serves the story.

Finally, there are LOADS of good sites online that will give you tips on writing, interviews with authors, etc. These can be very useful. Read extensively, try to take note of things you particularly enjoy in the text and keep it in mind when you are writing - reading good authors is the best way to learn technique. And lastly...ain't no way around just plain old doing the work...

Good luck!

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice, sorry i'm a bit late in replying-- I am in Vietnam and sometimes i can't get to the internet. Anyway, still tinkering with the story and a few others.

You mentioned about the limitation being around 3-4 times shorter than most short stories, ones being submitted for publication anyway. True, I am certainly limiting myself, but (as i think i mentioned in my last reply To dawvee) I am trying to be (as you also mention)ruthlessly efficient in my use of language. Of course, if my efficiency means i have really made a bare skeleton out of my story that is another, serious matter. Personally, I think it's not bad. The reason for my limitation is simply that i am trying to invest meaning in a really limited framework. If i feel a story needs more, or has more potential, I can always see if i need to bump it up 2 maybe 3 fold. It was a friend's idea, something akin to training for a marathon at a unreasonably high altitude, if you follow.

As for loose characterisations and sloppy plotting, well the stories themselves are really very basic, so there's not much to get lost in IMO, just family matters and people in a pub etc. though maybe that's my naievity? I like simplicity, though (as someone said somewhere here) I always do have a conflict or something i feel makes the story gripping in a certain way. I could get lost in the characterisations, but i don't really do any.

I was happy, nay delighted, to see your comments on the place, as I felt somewhat the same in my head. I am still going to go on without naming the place(s), as they are fimilaiar to everyone so i think no one needs to be told where these houses, pubs, towns etc. are but i do agree that getting a sense of the place, the atmosphere, is important. Crucial, even. Again, if i managed this is of course another thing. But it's something i am aiming for.

as for the structure, i have done no characterisations anywhere. you know they type: ''He was tall, hulking... His hair was fiery'' etc. I know this can be invaluable to getting the characters in many instances, for innumerable reasons. I think in the types of stories I write their manner and dialogue is how i think i describe them. Perhaps i'm being too simplistic, or whatever, but I try to use words sparingly. Again, baggy plotting probably can't really matter in my stories. very simple things!

As for dialogue-- yes, this is a bastard. Not because dialogue is alien in any way-- i speak all the time-- but trying to capture dialogue effectively is proving really hard. Still, I believe I am getting better by the old trial-and-error method, though this can feel unrewarding. I also think you have to be blunt with dialogue, half-sentences etc. as most people talk. Not always but you know what i mean. It's something I must work at, and am always happy to hear advice about.

Here's a question, to anyone that cares to answer: can you write a short story without dialogue, or is that an impossibility or a foolish limitation or stylistic nightmare? I know what i'm going to get back but just to see what, if any time, it could be feasible. Sometimes when i begin a story i think to myself 'Do i need dialogue in this' before i realsie how lazy I am being and of course dialogue is essential, as essential as pen and paper or the keyboard.

Tenses, yea, just going with my gut now, past is all working fine. I was a bit confused here.

Thanks for the helpful reply to my OP, i will certainly remember the advice and review it from time to time. Of course, any more is always welcomed. Surprisingly, i have gotten a lot from the responses to my OP. Most of my followup questions were answered!

jackthelad321 · 24-07-2010 5:05am

EileenG wrote: »

I tend to use the idea that a short story is a snapshot. Stuff happened before the story started, and more things will happen after it is over, but the bit you write about is where some significant change happened.

A short story is often bracketed in some way, for instance, from the beginning of a car journey to the end. From meeting someone to leaving them. There may be a bit of flashback in the course of the story to establish any necessary background, but use as little as possible. And it usually involves one plot thread, and very rarely more than three people.

Don't get fancy. Keep your writing simple. Try not to let sentences get too long, and keep adjectives under control.

You do need a sense of place, but you can be very subtle about this, and you certainly don't need any sort of phonetic accent. If your reader knows the accent, she'll read it in that accent herself. If she doesn't, your trying to spell it out will just annoy her.

Interesting thoughts on the significant change. Very very true. Never thought in that exact way but now that i am i see exactly what you mean. Without realising it in the stories i have written that is apparant in all of them. Exactly!

with regards to people, I usually only have two-three, but in the last one i put in five. wait.... yea, five. it's a bit cluttered but i need all them now! that's how i feel in any case.

Yea, i keep my writing as basic as possible. If a word doesn't feel right i never use it. College thought me that misusing a word is the most sinful thing you can do, and i agree, not to mention the damage to the credibility of the story.

And as i mentioned in my just-posted last post, I am trying to convey place with descriptions that set a mood adequate to the story. I think it's going grand. And yes, it will easily annoyed the reader spelling things out. Then again, lots of things annoy the reader.

Quick question, again to anyone who wants to answer: Who are you/me writing stories for... a reader i.e. specific audience IYO or are you writing first for yourself...?
i feel it has to be written for yourself first, but you need to be mindful that others need to/will read it. Also, again something like Eileen's comments on annoying the reader, you have to respect the reader's intelligence, do you not?:D Too much description in my mind is one way to possibly be guilty of this.

thanks for the help, i'm taking it all on board. Please don't hesitate to point out any alarming misconceptions i may have on the art of creative writing! I can take it.

P.s John Mcgahern's line fascinates me.. (para) ''all good writing is suggestion and all bad writing is statement.'' What are your views?

jackthelad321 · 24-07-2010 5:43am

pickarooney wrote: »

Hi Jack,

I don't have much experience writing short stories (or much else for that matter) but my take on these questions would be as follows

Narrative mode:
If you feel more comfortable writing in the first person, then go with it. If you're struggling to get something together, take one obstacle out by not trying to force yourself to use a style you don't really 'feel'. You can always give other perspectives a shot another time, or even rewrite your story in another way later. The main thing is to get a finished story and polish it until you're happy with it.

Using Italics:
Emphasis, mostly, and the occasional foreign word. Unless you feel that something really needs italics, don't use them. I would say they're largely unnecessary outside of dialogue, and even then should be used sparingly.

Dialogue:
British English tends to use double quotes for speech and single quotes for speech withing speech. American English uses the opposite, as far as I know. You can use either, or neither, and this is nothing more than typography and shouldn't worry you until everything else is perfect. It's about as important as font typeface or margin size.

The only pointers I can really give on dialogue are that it has to sound natural for the characters. I would say that you should know your characters inside out before you write any dialogue for them, even a simple "Hello". This is the only way you'll know yourself if this person would say these words in this situation. If you want the dialogue to be sharp and witty, make sure that your character matches this description (by this I mean the image of him in you head). Conversely, well-tuned dialogue will tell the reader more about your character than pages of adjectives or backstory.

Place:
Your characters will always be somewhere, even if you choose never to reveal where that is. You don't necessarily have to know or say what town they're in or from and should never feel like you have to have them speak a certain way. You are the writer, they're your characters and you can make them do whatever you want. Unless you really enjoy experimenting with slang and phonetic accents, avoid it as if it's not done perfectly it's far worse than if it's not done at all. This is even true for film - nobody cares that much that the American lead is using his own accent for a German character but everyone will notice if he puts on a bad German accent.

Structure:
There are no hard and fast rules, but it's usually a good idea to write only as much of a story as will fit into the wordcount allowed. By this I mean, if you're writing 2000 words you can forget about telling us the family tree of the main character going back three centuries and get straight into telling us what happened to him on the precise occasion you're telling us about.

Tenses:
You need to get this right. It can completely throw a reader if you use inconsistent tenses in a passage of text and often it's just plain wrong.
you can of course tell parts of the story in the past and parts in the present (and even the future perfect continuous if you feel like it) as long as there is consistency within a passage. Dialogue in a passage told in the past tense can of course be in the present tense.

good observations. I must say on rereading all the posts here the good thing is that the same fundamentals are being covered and i agree with them also.

With regards to narrative mode, I am bound to start repeating myself but yea i am happy with the form i have chosen now. I think it works best. I have the story complete in theory, now I just have to cut and pick from the amount of stuff written into a copybook and type it up. It's very hard; it's all genius, of course.

italics, na not going to use them for now. I tried once but took it out.

Your thoughts on dialogue i found invaluable, i used them it after i read. i did character plans and thought of a loose history (that won't be mentioned) and had a complex family made up before i continued and i felt the characters suddenly had a point or base of reference. So thanks for that, very useful, and i will continue to use from now on.

Also agree personally on your point :''If you want the dialogue to be sharp and witty, make sure that your character matches this description (by this I mean the image of him in you head). Conversely, well-tuned dialogue will tell the reader more about your chang than pages of adjectives or backstory.''

I fully agree. It's taste, of course, but it's to my taste and i think to most of the writers i tend to enjoy i.e. what you mentioed above. I have tried to use dialogue to tell much of the characters themselves, and while it's no doubt still amateurish and akward in places, it has to be really if you've just begun to considering these ideas, as i have.

Place, i haven't specifically mentioned ( i must have mentioned this 4 times by now!) but i hope i have explained this adequately above!

I may put up a few stories in a while when i am happy with them, although i will be expecting my grilling from you, Pickarooney:D

jackthelad321 · 24-07-2010 6:08am

EileenG wrote: »

Dialogue is essential to almost every story, but be careful about using it to set a scene. Unless the reader knows who is talking and where they are, you can lose them very quickly.

In your opening, you need to establish where and when the story is set, and give some idea of what the story is about (horror, love, killing spree) all while trying to grab the reader's attention.

Nested quotes are when you have something like "The doctor told you to 'Prick his boil', not ...." It doesn't arise that often.

Paired actions: "Don't speak to me like that." She slammed down the menu.
He glared at her. "I'll speak to you any way I like."
The waiter approached silently. "Would anyone care for the wine list?"

The little bit of action that goes with the speech tells you who is saying what.

Don't mumble, joke, grumble, tease etc. It calls attention to the writing, rather than letting the characters get on with the story.

Try not to stick adverbs on speech tags as in "He thought to himself, moodily". It slows down the action. And unless your story is about telepaths, you can assume that anything he thinks is to himself.

Bar, house, campus etc is good, but remember that you may be imagining one in Dublin or Cork, while your reader might be imagining one in London or Lahore.

I know what you mean, dialogue is hard to use effectively, see above, but i am trying and hopefully getting better.

I wonder about the attributives (i think they are called?) like 'she muttered,' 'he grumbled.' I thought they can be used, and i am unsure if they weaken the writing necessarilly. I think that always using them would be awful.
Here's a question, would you say 'what's the mater with her?' she said (or she asked?) To me she said is incorrect and sometimes you might have to explain who's speaking. and if you don't joke, mumble, tease, is it not impossible to always convey these things through dialoge alone? I know of lots of writers who use things like that effectively IMHO, F.scott fitzgearald for one.

Have i misunderstood what you were saying? Please let me know if i have.

Thanks for the paired actions example. very useful stuff, It is handy to let the reader know who is talking and setting the mood.

I do agree about adverbs, generally i think they do weaken writing, although they have to be used sometimes.

As regards the place, I was of the opinion if the reader chooses to imagine it as london, and i have written about cork, for example, would that really matter? Just wondering, in my mind i don't think it's important, but i am open to your reasoning! Maybe your were also saying it's unimportant but just to keep it in mind? If i am misunderstanding things my defence is i have been typing answers for over two hours now! head is frazzled.. phew!

thatnks for the advice, i am trying to take it all on board and appreciate all the comments. please keep things coming if you like, i am find all the advice invaluable.

Also, does anyone know of proper good websites on this stuff, not '10 tips for writing' because i think there has to be far better sites, sources and things out there. Or books etc on amazon? i know i could do all this myself but i trust you guys probably have the best work done!

Thanks all, you've helped immensely

JACK!:)

cobsie · 24-07-2010 9:59am

Hi jackthelad, great to have this discussion with you!

Here's some writers that are brilliant at super-short stories: Jorge Luis Borges, Ernest Hemmingway (The Snows of Kilimanjaro), Etgar Keret (Missing Kissinger), Isaac Babel (Red Cavalry).

Hemmingway rarely gives his characters any physical descriptions ("The American" or "The girl" only) - but Babel often lingers on the physical as a way of getting to character. Charles Dickens did the same...but he's not renowned for his brevity, I guess!

I think the idea of writing a story without dialogue is brilliant. It would be technically difficult in one respect, but on the other it could happen quite naturally if there was a strong interior monologue, for instance. I would love to hear how you got on in any attempt!

Finally as to the sense of place: like most people, I've read literature from all over the world, places I've never seen or even been near - I recently read Things Fall Apart which is set in what is now Nigeria. I also re-read Babel's early stories, set in Odessa and St. Petersburg...my point being, you can't control what people see in their heads, especially if they've never been to the place where your story is set. But nonetheless the sense of place that these stories convey feels real and vivid, because it is written with a sense of its reality as being true; they are written with conviction of place...so even Hogwarts or the Oceania of 1984 feel real in this way.

EileenG · 24-07-2010 7:41pm

jackthelad321 wrote: »

I know what you mean, dialogue is hard to use effectively, see above, but i am trying and hopefully getting better.

I wonder about the attributives (i think they are called?) like 'she muttered,' 'he grumbled.' I thought they can be used, and i am unsure if they weaken the writing necessarilly. I think that always using them would be awful.
Here's a question, would you say 'what's the mater with her?' she said (or she asked?) To me she said is incorrect and sometimes you might have to explain who's speaking. and if you don't joke, mumble, tease, is it not impossible to always convey these things through dialoge alone? I know of lots of writers who use things like that effectively IMHO, F.scott fitzgearald for one.

Have i misunderstood what you were saying? Please let me know if i have.

Thanks for the paired actions example. very useful stuff, It is handy to let the reader know who is talking and setting the mood.

I do agree about adverbs, generally i think they do weaken writing, although they have to be used sometimes.

As regards the place, I was of the opinion if the reader chooses to imagine it as london, and i have written about cork, for example, would that really matter? Just wondering, in my mind i don't think it's important, but i am open to your reasoning! Maybe your were also saying it's unimportant but just to keep it in mind? If i am misunderstanding things my defence is i have been typing answers for over two hours now! head is frazzled.. phew!

thatnks for the advice, i am trying to take it all on board and appreciate all the comments. please keep things coming if you like, i am find all the advice invaluable.

Also, does anyone know of proper good websites on this stuff, not '10 tips for writing' because i think there has to be far better sites, sources and things out there. Or books etc on amazon? i know i could do all this myself but i trust you guys probably have the best work done!

Thanks all, you've helped immensely

JACK!:)

One of my favourite books is "The first five pages" by Noah Lukeman. It makes you look at sloppy writing in a completely different way. One of the first things in the book is an exercise where you take a page of your story, and take out all the adjectives and adverbs, then see if you can do without them by using stronger nouns and verbs. It's amazing how much just this exercise can sharpen a piece.

"What's the matter with her?" she asked.

Stick to "said" or "asked" as much as possible. Occasionally you'll have to use "whispered" or "yelled". Those are almost invisible to the reader, so they don't slow the story. The worst thing is to have writing that makes your reader stop reading to admire your extensive vocabulary.

Don't forget that writing styles have changed, and things that were normal fifty years ago look wrong now. You can use an older style if you want, but you are limiting your chances of getting published.

I think you should write for a reader. Give enough description to give a sense of your characters and locations, but you don't have to give long passages. Ideally, drip the description in through the action. So rather than a paragraph talking about your character's hair, just mention that her long black hair flopped in her eyes when she ran for the bus.

As for the places, the classic example is that you are in Vietnam. If your character goes shopping, it's not likely that it will be to a Londis which is doing a special on out-of-date coleslaw.

The Mad Hatter · 25-07-2010 6:22pm

cobsie wrote: »

Here's some writers that are brilliant at super-short stories: Jorge Luis Borges, Ernest Hemmingway (The Snows of Kilimanjaro), Etgar Keret (Missing Kissinger), Isaac Babel (Red Cavalry).

You left out Franz Kafka! His short-shorts tend to be wonderful, and a lot more optimistic than his longer stuff. One of my favourites is Absent-Minded Window Gazing (microscopic at 100 words).

jackthelad321 · 27-07-2010 7:10am

EileenG wrote: »

One of my favourite books is "The first five pages" by Noah Lukeman. It makes you look at sloppy writing in a completely different way. One of the first things in the book is an exercise where you take a page of your story, and take out all the adjectives and adverbs, then see if you can do without them by using stronger nouns and verbs. It's amazing how much just this exercise can sharpen a piece.

"What's the matter with her?" she asked.

Stick to "said" or "asked" as much as possible. Occasionally you'll have to use "whispered" or "yelled". Those are almost invisible to the reader, so they don't slow the story. The worst thing is to have writing that makes your reader stop reading to admire your extensive vocabulary.

Don't forget that writing styles have changed, and things that were normal fifty years ago look wrong now. You can use an older style if you want, but you are limiting your chances of getting published.

I think you should write for a reader. Give enough description to give a sense of your characters and locations, but you don't have to give long passages. Ideally, drip the description in through the action. So rather than a paragraph talking about your character's hair, just mention that her long black hair flopped in her eyes when she ran for the bus.

As for the places, the classic example is that you are in Vietnam. If your character goes shopping, it's not likely that it will be to a Londis which is doing a special on out-of-date coleslaw.

Thanks once more for the reply, EileenG. I really must get a few good books on writing and everything related. To date I have the Elements of Style which has some great advice but is sometimes inflexible and a bit outdated in places-- as you said writing styles have changed.

With regard to removing adjectives and adverbs, another Strunk and White rule(from White's chapter, i think) is to write with nouns and verbs. It's one of the things i recognise as being true and that exercise sounds great. Jesus ...it's so obvious why haven't I ever thought of it before!? I must check that out, that book, i remember seeing you post about that before somewhere else.

On getting published. Of course that would be fantastic, can you imagine, but i think i'd have to be putting in 5-10 years minimum daily work, good cnsidered practice, to be at a publishing standard. Though every day i have more to say, I think really good writing hinges on continual life experiences and development. I think I need a few more years to be that sure. Plus, as the famous Cobsie once said: ''ain't no way around just plain old doing the work...''

I should try reading some newer books i guess, to see how styles have changed.

As for the question of place and for whom one writes.Well, I suppose sometimes you need to individualise your writing and come to your own conculsions on certain things... I think i'll have to find and become happy my own beliefs for those two particular aspects of short story writing.

Thanks for the thoughts. I must try that removing adj/adv in one piece of my writing. I'll probably put up some of my stories when i have any finished and am happy with them, which may take a while! Plus i have to investigate where the holes are and how I'm going to attempt to rectify the mistakes.

As always much appreciated
JACK !

jackthelad321 · 27-07-2010 7:58am

cobsie wrote: »

Hi jackthelad, great to have this discussion with you!

Here's some writers that are brilliant at super-short stories: Jorge Luis Borges, Ernest Hemmingway (The Snows of Kilimanjaro), Etgar Keret (Missing Kissinger), Isaac Babel (Red Cavalry).

Hemmingway rarely gives his characters any physical descriptions ("The American" or "The girl" only) - but Babel often lingers on the physical as a way of getting to character. Charles Dickens did the same...but he's not renowned for his brevity, I guess!

I think the idea of writing a story without dialogue is brilliant. It would be technically difficult in one respect, but on the other it could happen quite naturally if there was a strong interior monologue, for instance. I would love to hear how you got on in any attempt!

Finally as to the sense of place: like most people, I've read literature from all over the world, places I've never seen or even been near - I recently read Things Fall Apart which is set in what is now Nigeria. I also re-read Babel's early stories, set in Odessa and St. Petersburg...my point being, you can't control what people see in their heads, especially if they've never been to the place where your story is set. But nonetheless the sense of place that these stories convey feels real and vivid, because it is written with a sense of its reality as being true; they are written with conviction of place...so even Hogwarts or the Oceania of 1984 feel real in this way.

much thanks on the short stories (and that Paris review thing in the other thread!)

straight to writing without narrative. I think it's very possible really to write without narrative, but making that seem natural would be a challenge alright.

I wonder if don't use conventional narrative, but maybe this instead... 'we talked about her for many hours. Sometimes when he spoke his eyes lit up, revisiting a memory he'd once forgot' that kind of stuff throughout, maybe like a momory that's hazy.... i guess it is still narrative of some sort. I think you could write a story with nothing but that type of narrative (and no doubt they'll be a proper name for that too, which i don't know!)

as for place, i am readinf 1984 at the moment...what a book, with regards to the place especially...terrifing! brilliant.
It is daunting when someone is that good at writing!(check use of italics!)

Jak

cobsie · 27-07-2010 11:06am

jackthelad321 wrote: »

straight to writing without narrative. I think it's very possible really to write without narrative, but making that seem natural would be a challenge alright.

I definitely think its possible - it seems a dreamy sort of device, almost like magic realism, to write a story without dialogue. Everything has to be hearsay and recall - a very interesting challenge!

Why do you want to write a story like that? What is happening that the dialogue can't be conveyed directly? I am just curious

jackthelad321 wrote: »

It is daunting when someone is that good at writing!(check use of italics!)

Yeah, George Orwell makes me sick with jealousy! (;))

Speaking of which...he has a brilliant essay on writing called Politics and the English Language.

Cheers, C

jackthelad321 · 31-07-2010 3:23pm

cobsie wrote: »

I definitely think its possible - it seems a dreamy sort of device, almost like magic realism, to write a story without dialogue. Everything has to be hearsay and recall - a very interesting challenge!

Why do you want to write a story like that? What is happening that the dialogue can't be conveyed directly? I am just curious

Yeah, George Orwell makes me sick with jealousy! (;))

Speaking of which...he has a brilliant essay on writing called Politics and the English Language.

Cheers, C

I thought i had replied to this, i remember typing it but the electricity must have gone off, again.

Have no idea about the dialogue thing, really, i just know that dialogue is a pain in the arse. But when it feels like its natural it worth it i suppose.

I do think i'll dabble in the dialogue, though it might be god awful. There is no high purpose to it.

I have read, lost, and read again that essay and, though i know it's brilliant, i have forgotten it all. Another thing on my to-do list, that fat bastard of a thing.

I suppose it would be hearsay and recall-- interestingly put. I must muse on all these things.
!
Never mind your usage of italics, your usage of Smiley faces is inspired, unparallelled.

Writing short story makes my head hurt

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