Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia

eightyfish

Something I've been wondering about recently is what is the difference between Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia? I have heard people say that Anti-Semitism is racism but Islamophobia is not. Is this the case? I can't think of a good explanation.

Rev Hellfire

eightyfish wrote: »

Something I've been wondering about recently is what is the difference between Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia? I have heard people say that Anti-Semitism is racism but Islamophobia is not. Is this the case? I can't think of a good explanation.

Perhaps the fact that the jews are considered a race while islam is a religion might explain the difference.

ShooterSF

Might it be to do with Jews being considered a race aswell as a religion by some people whereas Islam isn't? (Just a guess)

Edit - Damn you Rev and my slow fingers)

eightyfish

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Perhaps the fact that the jews are considered a race while islam is a religion might explain the difference.

This is what I thought, maybe... but Jews are not a race. They are followers of a religion. If a Jewish person becomes atheist they are no longer a Jew.

eightyfish

eightyfish wrote: »

This is what I thought, maybe... but Jews are not a race. They are followers of a religion. If a Jewish person becomes atheist they are no longer a Jew.

You can still be culturally Jewish.
You'd still have Jewish heredity

Zombrex

eightyfish wrote: »

Something I've been wondering about recently is what is the difference between Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia? I have heard people say that Anti-Semitism is racism but Islamophobia is not. Is this the case? I can't think of a good explanation.

Meh, racism is a very misused term.

One heard someone say that not liking people from the country was "racist"

the next time you meet these "people" give them a smack in the mouth for being stupid.

dvpower

King Mob wrote: »

You can still be culturally Jewish.
You'd still have Jewish heredity

What? Why? How?

Sam Vimes

eightyfish wrote: »

This is what I thought, maybe... but Jews are not a race. They are followers of a religion. If a Jewish person becomes atheist they are no longer a Jew.

"Who is a Jew?" (Hebrew: מיהו יהודי‎ pronounced [ˈmihu jehuˈdi]) is a basic question about Jewish identity and considerations of Jewish self-identification. The question is based in ideas about Jewish personhood which themselves have cultural, religious, genealogical, and personal dimensions.

There are controversial aspects —to begin with, the question has a logical inverse, namely "who is not a Jew?" Recent court cases have gained particular prominence in connection with several legal cases in Israel since 1962,[1][2] and in 2009 there was a prominent and controversial court case, in the United Kingdom, about the question.[3][4][5][6][7][8]

The definition of who is a Jew varies according to whether it is being considered by Jews based on normative religious statutes, self-identification or by non-Jews for other reasons. Because Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion,[9] and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered.[10]

According to halakha, the oldest normative definition used by Jews for self-identification, a person is matrilineally a Jew by birth, or becomes one through conversion to Judaism. Adherence to this definition has been challenged since the emergence of the Karaite sect, emergence of modern groups in Judaism since the 19th century, and the creation of Israel in 1948. Issues that have been raised reflect:

* Child's non-Jewish mother: i.e. whether a child born of a non-Jewish mother should be considered Jewish through the father's Jewish identity.
* Conversion: i.e. what process of conversion other than the historically normative procedure according to Jewish law should be considered valid.
* Historical loss of Jewish identity: i.e. whether a person's or group's actions (such as conversion to a different religion) or circumstances in his, her or community's life (such as being unaware of Jewish parents) should affect his or her Jewish status.
* Diaspora identity: identity of Jews among themselves, and by non-Jews throughout the Jewish diaspora.
* Claim to Israeli citizenship: the examination of the three previous issues in the context of the Basic Laws of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Strangely a Jewish atheist is still a Jew

sink

eightyfish wrote: »

This is what I thought, maybe... but Jews are not a race. They are followers of a religion. If a Jewish person becomes atheist they are no longer a Jew.

Jews are considered an ethnoreligious group, which means they're both a racial ethnicity and followers of a religion and culture. They're descendent of the Israelites from ancient times and DNA analysis backs this up. Throughout their history they've rarely interbred with other populations and ethnic groups and so they've maintained a fairly homogeneous gene pool within their ethnic community.

eightyfish

King Mob wrote: »

You can still be culturally Jewish.

Like I am culturally Catholic - indeed. And I know the Jews have a shared history that stands out somewhat. Is it really the case that Anti-Semitism is dislike/hatred of the Jews, while Islamophobia is dislike/criticism of the religion of Islam?

I mean - If I stand on the corner of the street and tell people publicly that I think that Islam represses women's rights, and is therefore, say, immoral - I could be labelled by believers as being Islamophobic. Even though in my opinion this statement is justified.

If I stand on the street and say "The Jews are immoral" that is Anti-Semitic. If I say "Judaism is immoral" - is that Anti-Semitic?

The two terms are very similar in definition from the ones I can find.

eightyfish

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Strangely a Jewish atheist is still a Jew

Strange. Wiki is where I looked up the definitions first:

Antisemitism is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion.

Islamophobia is prejudice against Islam or Muslims.

Ickle Magoo

At a very basic level would the phobia not suggest an irrational fear and the anti being actively against...?

Sam Vimes

eightyfish wrote: »

Like I am culturally Catholic - indeed. And I know the Jews have a shared history that stands out somewhat. Is it really the case that Anti-Semitism is dislike/hatred of the Jews, while Islamophobia is dislike/criticism of the religion of Islam?

I mean - If I stand on the corner of the street and tell people publicly that I think that Islam represses women's rights, and is therefore, say, immoral - I could be labelled by believers as being Islamophobic. Even though in my opinion this statement is justified.

If I stand on the street and say "The Jews are immoral" that is Anti-Semitic. If I say "Judaism is immoral" - is that Anti-Semitic?

The two terms are very similar in definition from the ones I can find.

You'd have to make a distinction between the religion and the race imo. Speaking out against Islam is "attacking" an ideology but speaking out against Jews can either be "attacking" someone's ideology, which they choose to adhere to and can change, or their ethnicity, which they obviously can't change

ShooterSF

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

At a very basic level would the phobia not suggest an irrational fear and the anti being actively against...?

Try looking for help with an irrational fear of homosexuals on the phobia forum and you might find its not as black and white an issue. Plenty consider the use of the word phobia in some places a misnomer.

Ickle Magoo

ShooterSF wrote: »

Try looking for help with an irrational fear of homosexuals on the phobia forum and you might find its not as black and white an issue. Plenty consider the use of the word phobia in some places a misnomer.

I was suggesting that's where the terminology comes from, I think many people now hide behind the more acceptable titles that suggest there is no choice or decision made to be prejudiced and so they have become synonymous...

robindch

eightyfish wrote: »

Something I've been wondering about recently is what is the difference between Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia? I have heard people say that Anti-Semitism is racism but Islamophobia is not. Is this the case? I can't think of a good explanation.

It depends on who you're talking to, and how they perceive reality and their religion.

Strictly-speaking, anti-semitism is the inciting or the carrying out of violence against people who claim a jewish identity, while the ridiculously contrived "islamophobia" (by similarity with homophobia) is the hatred, perhaps not acted out, of the idea of islam, rather than any of its believers.

But in reality it's much more confused than that. For many religious believers, their religion defines a large chunk of their identity, and because of this, criticizing the religion is equivalent can be seen as being equivalent to criticizing the believer. Seems to happen more regularly with islam than christianity, probably because these days, islam is more closely linked to its host states than christianity tends to be, so islam is more prone to being used like this by unscrupulous political operators.

In this way, criticism of islam can be labelled "islamophobia" and then be perceived, with the right kind of sermonizing, as hatred of islam itself. And from there, the sermonizer can introduce the politics of identity, from where it's a short step to claiming that criticism of the religion is equivalent to hatred of the believer. In this way, politicians or their sermonizers can legitimately (in their eyes) call for the banning of the criticism of islam on the grounds of public decency or safety.

Ultimately it comes down to an intentional blurring of the boundaries between criticism of ideas, criticism of people, hatred of people and violence against people, and the various understandings that individuals will have of each of these, and where the boundaries (if any) lie.

Each individual's perception depends more than anything else on the political climate they live in.

eightyfish

eightyfish wrote: »

Like I am culturally Catholic - indeed.

I am. I think it's safe to assume you are as well.

eightyfish wrote: »

And I know the Jews have a shared history that stands out somewhat. Is it really the case that Anti-Semitism is dislike/hatred of the Jews, while Islamophobia is dislike/criticism of the religion of Islam?

Well yea. Anti-Semitism = against Semitic people.
Islamophobic = irrational fear of Islam.

One refers to a people the other to a religion.

eightyfish wrote: »

If I stand on the street and say "The Jews are immoral" that is Anti-Semitic.

Yup.

eightyfish wrote: »

If I say "Judaism is immoral" - is that Anti-Semitic?

Nope. No more than legitimate criticism of Islam or Catholicism

eightyfish

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You'd have to make a distinction between the religion and the race imo. Speaking out against Islam is "attacking" an ideology but speaking out against Jews can either be "attacking" someone's ideology, which they choose to adhere to and can change, or their ethnicity, which they obviously can't change

I would tend to agree. The problem is with the definitions it can be applied to "prejudice against" the ideology or the race. I have heard, in conversation, a Muslim friend say that people who were Islamophobic are the same as people who were anti-Semitic. I wouldn't see them as the same at all, but by the definitions it could be easily argued that they are.

mikhail

Why is one a "-phobia" and the other an "anti-"?

Irrational hatred of any group is wrong, and such hatreds are more or less equivalent. On the other hand, these terms are often abused to attack critics. Is criticism of an Israeli policy anti-Semitic? Is criticism of women's rights in certain Islamic cultures Islamophobic? I've seen those used, and I'd encourage people not to tolerate that kind of creeping definition which lets people supress dissent by labeling their critics "anti-" or "-phobia".

Racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, these terms are hateful for good reason and their power shouldn't be abused or diluted.

(Fun fact: Semite once held a much broader definition, so many Arabs are classically Semitic and modernly anti-Semitic.)

Zillah

mikhail wrote: »

(Fun fact: Semite once held a much broader definition, so many Arabs are classically Semitic and modernly anti-Semitic.)

It's not really "used to". Take a look at linguistics for example, tons of references to "semitic" in the very broad sense. Arabic is officially a semitic language.

mikhail

Zillah wrote: »

It's not really "used to". Take a look at linguistics for example, tons of references to "semitic" in the very broad sense. Arabic is officially a semitic language.

Yeah, though technical vocabulary is often strange ground for definitions.

Dave!

I think I'll take this opportunity to post a video. Doug Stanhope's thoughts on the Jews:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAVyiJ1SINE

The Mad Hatter

eightyfish wrote: »

This is what I thought, maybe... but Jews are not a race. They are followers of a religion. If a Jewish person becomes atheist they are no longer a Jew.

You'd better tell Woody Allen...

Edit: And the rest of these guys.

onlyrocknroll

The term Jewish DOES refer to both a national/ethnic group and to a religion. Hence if somebody who is both ethnically and religiously Jewish renounces their faith, they ARE both Jewish and atheist.

For instance Hitler's antisemitism was racially motivated. The faith of the person was irrelevant to the Nazis, they persecuted people based on believes that Jewish were racially inferior and subversive.

The antisemitism of say St. Paul/Saul, or the medieval Catholic Church was sectarian rather than racist. If you believed in Judaism you would be persecuted, if you converted to Christianity you would not be.

Obviously many or even most ethnic Jews are religious Jews also, and vice versa, but two distinctive uses of the word Jewish exist.

strobe

Dave! wrote: »

I think I'll take this opportunity to post a video. Doug Stanhope's thoughts on the Jews:

Ahh Doug you loveable drunk legend.