HKC - Panel model selection

mrhd

I am looking to install an alarm in my new house. When we wired it up for alarm we decided to go for a PIR in each room rather than using contact or vibration sensors on the windows.

I have been looking at various models available in the local Electrical Wholesalers and I have settled on the HKC panel. Because I have 17 PIR locations, might be overkill, I can exclude some upstairs bedrooms if I need to reduce the number of circuits.

The guy in the guy in the Wholesalers said I need to go for the 16120 16-zone panel, which is a big jump in price from the 12 zone model as they are restricted to one PIR per zone.

Is it possible to run more than one PIR per zone in the HKC or any other model of Panel. I seem to remember reading somewhere in the HKC spec sheet that it can run 100+ PIR's which can have individual addresses, or am I misreading it.

If it is possible do I need to use a specific HKC model of PIR or other expansion module for the panel, or use resistors for PIRs in parallel.

Also I would like to have a second bell-box/strobe outside. One facing the neighbour as they are most likely to react to the alarm but that wouldnt be visible from the road so I was thinking of putting a second strobe on the opposite end of the house so that it is visible from the road. Again is this possible.

My total configuration would be something along the lines of


- 17 PIR's
- 2 keypads
- 3 panic buttons
- internal sounder
- 2 external sounders/strobes
- dialer PTSN initally, GSM signal is poor but may expand to include it later
- Smoke alarm (possibly)

Cadzer

mrhd wrote: »

Is it possible to run more than one PIR per zone in the HKC or any other model of Panel. I seem to remember reading somewhere in the HKC spec sheet that it can run 100+ PIR's which can have individual addresses, or am I misreading it.


- 17 PIR's
- 2 keypads
- 3 panic buttons
- internal sounder
- 2 external sounders/strobes
- dialer PTSN initally, GSM signal is poor but may expand to include it later
- Smoke alarm (possibly)

I think you are talking about Point ID sensors / PIR. They work on 3 wires and you can put 40 point ID sensors per panel. 10 on Zone 5 , 10 on Zone 6, 10 on Zone 7 and 10 on Zone 8. This option is on all of the HKC panels and could be what you are looking for. You will however have to use HKC PIRS.

In regards to your overall system, i would go with the 10/70 panel. It will do your point ID PIRs, and your overall spec. You can also put on wireless devices and could have a Keyfobs.

The 8/12 and 16/120 come with a 1 amp PSU and you might not have power problems driving 2 Sabbs units in a alarm condtion. The 10/70 has a 1.5 Amp PSU saving you the trouble of buying an extra power suppy.

In regards to the somke detector you can put on most models. Latching or momentary detectors.

mrhd

I had a look at the 10/70 on the web, unfortunately it is wireless and I am trying to avoid them as I dont want to be constantly replacing batteries and I have the cabling in place for a hard-wired panel.

altor

mrhd wrote: »

I had a look at the 10/70 on the web, unfortunately it is wireless and I am trying to avoid them as I dont want to be constantly replacing batteries and I have the cabling in place for a hard-wired panel.

It is a hybrid panel meaning it has 10 wired zones plus you have the option to add wire free components on if you decide too.

mrhd

apologies Cadzer, the first reference to the 10/70 I found was on ********** which called it a wireless panel.

I had posted my last reply when I came across another reference to the 10/70 which refers to it as a hybrid which can take wired zones as well as wireless zones. That being the case it might be the one for me alright.

I will drop into the Wholesaler for a price later in the week

altor

Make sure the you ask for the HKC POINT ID motion detectors. These are the only motions that will work with the point id on the HKC panel.

Jnealon

The 16/120 panel is painfully slow to use and if your wholesaler is trying to sell you that he does not know much.
The Signet would be a far better option and you would not have to use the dreaded ID sensors.
But whatever panel you choose plan the installation and programming carefully and keep the panel in a secure location away from any exit entry route

altor

Agreed, the old HKC panel is slow compared o the new one. I have used the ID sensors and never have any problems with them. Can you elaborate with the issues you have with them ?

Cadzer

Jnealon wrote: »

The 16/120 panel is painfully slow to use and if your wholesaler is trying to sell you that he does not know much.
The Signet would be a far better option and you would not have to use the dreaded ID sensors.
But whatever panel you choose plan the installation and programming carefully and keep the panel in a secure location away from any exit entry route

I have never had any problems with the point ID sensors. I have put them on the RKP/ exp bus and got comms faults but then rewired them on there own cable and they work great. Very handy when a house is totaly daisychained and you to tell where the activation has come from.

mrhd

I am finally getting around to doing my install.

I picked up a cople of the HKC Wired PIR's with ID-Bus option and a Panic Button as a start to get a feel for the HKC system. The wiring instructions etc are clear and easy to follow so I am definately going the HKC ID-Bus route.

I had a look at the 1070 panel and the main thing that is putting me off is the fact that it is a PolyCarbonate enclosure. I dont really have a need for wireless so I am leaning towards the 8/12 panel with the steel enclosure.

Apart from the wireless option in the future is there anything else that I am loosing out on by going 8/12 rather than 1070. I am assuming the lower power supply will be fine for me as I an now only going with one SABB and possibly an internal echo/flash.

Also can anybody clarify a query I have about ID-Bus. From my reading I understand that zones 5-8 on 8/12 are ID-Bus compatible, this is fine as I will have at most 3 zones with 6-7 PIRs on each. I see from the instructions with the PIR that I have a 3 wire set-up 12v +/- and Data.

My question is how well marked/documented are the data terminations in the Zone terminal block, i.e. are there 10 seperate data inputs one for each PIR/detector.

thanks for all the help and advice.

MRHD

KoolKid

I think you are mad going for that.
You are basically paying near enough the same money for very old technology.
Would you settle for a 10 year old mobile over an iPhone or similar?
How many ID PiRs are you looking at?
I would strongly recommend forgetting them and go for the SigNET.
If you are not going for wireless the SigNET comes with metal housing as standard.
In my experience I have had a lot of problem's with HKC ID devices.
I Will never use them again. Also with panel capacity getting bigger they will soon be outdated,
Remember by using these you are tying yourself to HKC. Global devices are always better.

fred funk }{

I would highly recommend the HKC 1070. It's miles ahead of the 812 in so many ways. The keypad is very attractive, much better than Signet and Astec etc. It has ten onboard zones and with the ID zones you'll have much more. The processor is much faster in the 1070 leading to much faster response times after a button has been pressed.

I don't know why the polycarbonate box is putting you off, its nice size with handy little pieces that slide out to allow easy cable access which is very handy.

I know you said you have no need for the wireless but it is a feature that can't be overlooked. Think in a few years if you want to add on a PIR, sensor, smoke alarm, contact, keyfob/panic or even a wireless keypad in the bedroom it would be a very simple job to do.

I really think you'd be mad to buy the older panel, there's so much more going for the new one.

altor

mrhd wrote: »

I am finally getting around to doing my install.

I picked up a cople of the HKC Wired PIR's with ID-Bus option and a Panic Button as a start to get a feel for the HKC system. The wiring instructions etc are clear and easy to follow so I am definately going the HKC ID-Bus route.

I had a look at the 1070 panel and the main thing that is putting me off is the fact that it is a PolyCarbonate enclosure. I dont really have a need for wireless so I am leaning towards the 8/12 panel with the steel enclosure.

Apart from the wireless option in the future is there anything else that I am loosing out on by going 8/12 rather than 1070. I am assuming the lower power supply will be fine for me as I an now only going with one SABB and possibly an internal echo/flash.

Also can anybody clarify a query I have about ID-Bus. From my reading I understand that zones 5-8 on 8/12 are ID-Bus compatible, this is fine as I will have at most 3 zones with 6-7 PIRs on each. I see from the instructions with the PIR that I have a 3 wire set-up 12v +/- and Data.

My question is how well marked/documented are the data terminations in the Zone terminal block, i.e. are there 10 seperate data inputs one for each PIR/detector.

thanks for all the help and advice.

MRHD

If given the choice I would go for the 1070, The metal over the polycarbonate housing is not going to be an issue as either panel can be opened by removing the screw. Same with any other system. The ability to add two way wire free devices if needed, smokes, keyfobs is also going to help down the road.
The 1070 can also do voice or text depending on your service provider for self monitoring.
The ID motions are great to use and install. I have used these for years with no problems. As you know each one of these can be given there own name plus the individual options can be set up for each one. That is correct, zones 5,6,7,8 are the ID bus.
The way they are wired to the panel is 12v for the power. In each of the ID zones say you have 7 blue data wires returning to the control panel. You loosen the left side of the alarm zone without removing the link and put them into the zone. Tighten the screw with the link left in. If you feel you have no room for this connect a single core from the zone and connect your data cables to this in a connector block.
The 1070 is expandable up to 70 wired zones. This is more than enough for your installation.

If you have any more questions let us know.

mrhd

Thanks for the advice. I think I will go with the 1070.

The reason I favoured the Metal over PolyC enclosure is purely for durability, but the other advantages outweigh that by the looks of it.

regards

MRHD

crasy dash

Where are you thinking of buying the panel out of interest?? I want the same panel might get it in the same place

Thanks
Dash

altor

mrhd wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I think I will go with the 1070.

The reason I favoured the Metal over PolyC enclosure is purely for durability, but the other advantages outweigh that by the looks of it.

regards

MRHD

Good choice mrhd. From the price side of it, it is well worth the extra few quid.

KoolKid

I agree ,much better than paying nearly the same money for a Securewatch.
Seriousally?? Why is anyone still installing those now?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

I agree ,much better than paying nearly the same money for a Securewatch.
Seriousally?? Why is anyone still installing those now?

They are cheap and cheerful and unsuspecting users know no better for what they are getting.

KoolKid

Cheap? whats in the difference now, €25?
Cheerful , NOT!!;):D

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Cheap? whats in the difference now, €25?
Cheerful , NOT!!;):D

Regardless of the extra expense, the 1070 is a much better panel than the 8/12.

KoolKid

Thats exactly the point I was making.;)

mrhd

Well guys the talking is over and the work begins ;-)

I bought the 1070 with RKP, a SABB, echo/flash, two panic buttons and 10 ID-bus PIRS. I am doing the preliminiaries to start the installation now.

The installation instructions that come with the 1070 and each of the deviceds are pretty good with only one or two areas of foggyiness for me.

Can anyone tell me how to wire the internal echo/flash. I have a Strobe (+/-) and an echo (-) on the device but an Int-Bell (+/-) and Strobe (+/-) on the panel. From reading boards I think it is strobe (+/-) to strobe (+/-) and int-bell (-) to echo (-). Is that correct.

There wasnt a leaflet in the echo/flash box and no mention in the Panel install booklet. If an echo/flash install leaflet exists would anybody have a scan of the wiring instructions?

Also from some testing with the Multi-Meter the Panics seem to be NC devices. So I reckon I need to wire them in series to put more than one on a Panic Zone. There is what looks like a magnet in them with two positions and one is marked NC. Can they be switched to NO and the zone programmed accordingly?

Apart from that it looks good.

TIA

MRHD

fred funk }{

The internal and strobe share the same + and have a - each that triggers either the bell or strobe.
For example... Using a six core cable, yellow and blue from internal tamper on panel to tamper on internal.

Red from + internal on panel to + on internal.

Black from - on internal on panel to - echo.

Green from strobe - on panel to strobe - on internal.

You can't programme the zone to N/O, why do you want to do it that way?

mrhd

Hi fred funk }{

Thanks for the wiring detils

I was thinking of the NO option as I could wire the panics in parallel and have one less terminal block to stuff in the panel. But NC option is fine.

MRHD

mrhd

Just a quick update

I got the system installed at the week-end.

It went in fairly easily and was straight forward enough to program/configure even for a novice like myself.

The internal echo/flash works perfectly using the instructions received in a previous reply earlier in this thread.

The only thing that surprised me was the look of the SAB strobe. When the alarm is triggered it just seems to flash the 3 LEDs on an off as a group. Not like the echo/flash which is more like an old style strobe. Is that right or was it a case of the strobe being 'washed out' by the day light or a wiring mistake?

The wiring instructions for the SAB (HKC also) contradicted those in the Panel Install guide, one called for the strobe +/- to be connected to Int-Bell +/- while the other said connect them to Strobe +/- on the panel.

I tried both but settled on connecting SAB Strobe +/- to Panel Strobe +/-

The only other area of concern/confusion was the correct setting of resistor jumpers in the PIR's I left them at the factor setting (most are in Point-ID Zones, with one in the Ent/Ext Zone), I presume that is correct as the various walk tests I did worked as expected.

thanks for everyone's help.

regards

MRHD

fred funk }{

Glad it worked out okay mrhd.

When the alarm is triggered it just seems to flash the 3 LEDs on an off as a group. Not like the echo/flash which is more like an old style strobe. Is that right or was it a case of the strobe being 'washed out' by the day light or a wiring mistake?

That is the way it works. There is no old style flash in modern bells, it's mainly LED's. At night they do the job.

The wiring instructions for the SAB (HKC also) contradicted those in the Panel Install guide, one called for the strobe +/- to be connected to Int-Bell +/- while the other said connect them to Strobe +/- on the panel.

The instructions are old. Up until recently there wasn't an extra output for the strobe. It was wired in with the internal. Now that the internal has to shut off after 15 mins and the strobe keeps going it needs it's own output.

The only other area of concern/confusion was the correct setting of resistor jumpers in the PIR's I left them at the factor setting (most are in Point-ID Zones, with one in the Ent/Ext Zone), I presume that is correct as the various walk tests I did worked as expected.

Factory setting in fine.

Jnealon

the strobe isn't great in the hkc sab.
they did tweak the programming but there was not much of an improvement

Cadzer

Jnealon wrote: »

the strobe isn't great in the hkc sab.
they did tweak the programming but there was not much of an improvement

The main difference between the Mark 2 SABB and Mark 3 Sabb is the 3 Leds. The 3 Leds reduces the SABB current From 460mA ( Mark 2) to 260mA ( Mark 3)

This frees up extra power on the panel and you can fit an extra bell without a need of an extra PSU.

Jnealon

i was only referring to the mk3 sab in my comments

mrhd

Hi

I bought a HKC DTV card for my 10-70. I have broadband on my eircom line, so I was wondering if anyone can tell me if I need to pipe the line through the DSL filter before hooking it onto the DTV card or can it take the un-filtered line.

regards

MRHD

altor

It all depends on the DSL filter you have. The most common one for alarms is the one below. It would be located in either the control panel or beside your main line where it comes into the house as the alarm system needs priority over other phones in your home.