TV Standards: Saorview

Sponge Bob

They should try to regulate from end 2010 by forbidding the sale of TVs and STBs with analogue tuners and with no mpeg4 decoder as and from 01/01/2011. Those with an analogue signal can always buy second hand.

Our man in Havana

The goverment will end up giving free STBs to refuseniks.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They should try to regulate from end 2010 by forbidding the sale of TVs and STBs with analogue tuners and with no mpeg4 decoder as and from 01/01/2011. Those with an analogue signal can always buy second hand.

Those with analogue only can buy a dual mode analogue + digital?

If you want HD for your BD player or 37" WS for your DVD, the S/H market won't do you much good.

They could ban all sets that don't have at least Saorview. But I don't think it's reasonable to ban additional Analogue tuner in a DTT set while there is less than full coverage?

But likely they will do little more than some misleading Public Announcements.

Antenna

watty wrote: »

But I don't think it's reasonable to ban additional Analogue tuner in a DTT set while there is less than full coverage?

+ people need Analogue capability for Sky Boxes supplying other rooms, security cameras etc and other in-house modulators (including VCRs - if they still use them, and some FTA satellite receivers).

Many digital cable subscribers still use analogue cable on 2nd, 3rd etc TVs

They never managed to stop the sale of radio scanners (which could tune to 'police frequencies' etc) - yet SB is talking about banning TVs (even with MPEG4) that can receive analogue TV?

Sam Russell

I think what is meant is to ban TVs without Saorview capability. [MPEG4 tuner, HD, etc]

I think if they announced today that the will turn off analogue from Mt Leinster, 3Rock, and Kippure on the 1st March 2011, by the 3rd of March, 2011 50% of people affected would be sorted, and by the 1st May, 2011, everyone else would be. How long will it take for South Coast TV to be sorted?

Only 20% of people get RTE from an aerial anyway, and less in Dublin.

watty

Analogue cable is on last gasp. UPC needs that spectrum for Broadband and HD.

AFAIK only in places like Iran, Saudia Arabia and North Korea has anyone actually banned scanners. The US managed to insist that all scanners have no coverage on the analogue Cellular frequency, but it only applies to models made for US Market with FCC approval. The almost identical Non-US model will typically have continious coverage.

Good point about the other analogue PAL RF and composite sources though. I do actually have one TV fed by Sky box RF despite having 16 way sat IF distribution. Must get another box

So I agree with most of what you say Antenna and certinly the intention!

But Sponge Bob may have meant the same, his post was slightly ambigious

forbidding the sale of TVs and STBs with analogue tuners and with no mpeg4 decoder

my bold added.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

Only 20% of people get RTE from an aerial anyway, and less in Dublin.

Near 80% have Pay TV. But that is not only 20% using RTE aerial. Many have TVs without the pay TV. Hence sale of Sky Eyes and use of RF out on Sky Box.

We don't actually know how many people have TVs that use Analogue RTE regularly.

lucernarian

Indeed. An there's no house I am aware of outside of Dublin that doesn't have some sort of old TV with an indoor rabbit's ears for RTE1/2 and whatever poor TV3 they can pick up. Be it in a kitchen or a bedroom or in a place of work etc.

Sam Russell

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

.......... and whatever poor TV3 they can pick up.

In my opinion, all of TV3 is poor.

Sponge Bob

You can use tellys without Saorview such as Freeview HD and French TNT HD Tellys ( or set top boxes for Freeview HD or TNT HD ). They should work...audio codec quibbles aside. If the telly does analogue AND has mpeg4 digital it should not be banned for having analogue too That should explain my ambiguity.

Best specifically ban analogue and mpeg2 only tellys if only to stop tesco maplins currys pc world argos lidl and aldi dumping crap that will not work on us.

Antenna

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If the telly does analogue AND has mpeg4 digital it should not be banned for having analogue too That should explain my ambiguity.

that's cleared up, your final sentence in your previous post suggested otherwise!

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Those with an analogue signal can always buy second hand.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Best specifically ban analogue and mpeg2 only tellys if only to stop tesco maplins currys pc world argos lidl and aldi dumping crap that will not work on us.

Allegedly last month zero Analogue only TVs sold in UK for 1st time in UK.

Aldi & Lidl worst for mislabelled junk.

A Monitor in Lidl advertised as "Full HD". It has no HDMI, so calling it "full HD" is misleading as it won't work on any setbox or DVD or BD. It has DVI in only.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

It has DVI in only.

Is that not what the US uses for HD instead of HDMI ???

My way of banning the TV's dumped on the Irish market would be to use advertising standards. Aldi currently have a 32 inch instore jobbie which cannot tune Irish DTT. A series of complaints about each and every misleading claim between now and October will ensure that the stores are very well aware that they must stop dumping crap on the Irish market. Argos alone have at least 10 incompatible products in their catalogue and ON THEIR WEBSITE so that makes 10 valid complaints about misleading advertising on their website.

A TV , to be "fit for the purpose" nowadays must at a minimum, show the RTENL2 test channel + audio or else it is not HD compatible in Ireland.

A TV that will not do so is a HD Monitor not a HD Television and should be sold as such It must show the RTENL1 test channel even if not HD compatible.

watty

to be any use as a broadcast HD monitor anywhere in Europe you need HDMI.

The Americans thought Component (basically worse than RGB SCART as it is Analogue and uses 3 plugs /cables, (or 5 if you include Stereo) instead one cable) was good for HD. Here component on any broadcast receiver will only give SD, not HD. SCART could have been extended for HD but deliberately was not.

DVI is a PC spec, period. It's not even very good as old analogue VGA can do higher resolution than one DVI connection. Higher than 1920x1200 needs multiple DVI! HDCP on DVI is a Kludge and often doesn't work.

The reason Component Out is not HD on any broadcast Receiver or BD box is HDCP.

watty

watty wrote: »

to be any use as a broadcast HD monitor anywhere in Europe you need HDMI.

The Americans thought Component (basically worse than RGB SCART as it is Analogue and uses 3 plugs /cables, (or 5 if you include Stereo) instead one cable) was good for HD. Here component on any broadcast receiver will only give SD, not HD. SCART could have been extended for HD but deliberately was not.

DVI is a PC spec, period. It's not even very good as old analogue VGA can do higher resolution than one DVI connection. Higher than 1920x1200 needs multiple DVI! HDCP on DVI is a Kludge and often doesn't work.

The reason Component Out is not HD on any broadcast Receiver or BD box is HDCP.

Im running YPbPr at 1080i (tv recongised the signal as a HD signal => 1808 by 1010 pixels and it is excellent quality with media centre as my DTT reciever with a USB tuner plus I watch HD quality video which compares well to when i watch HD content on my ps3

So I presume there is an exception if you have HD grapics card with YPbPr (ive a 8800gts without a HDMI port but two DVI ports and a HD component port which I am using for this) , media centre and a decent tuner unless you are looking for 1080p or would I be better off with a HD set top box?

watty

warlikedave wrote: »

Im running YPbPr at 1080i
So I presume there is an exception if you have HD grapics card with YPbPr (ive a 8800gts without a HDMI port but two DVI ports and a HD component port which I am using for this)

It's not a setbox. There will be no 1080p broadcasts. European setboxes will only output SD on component, by design.

Media PC type systems are USA centric in design and a market failure. Philips did Europeanised version but has ceased.

The Media future is not Tuner cards in an expensive x86/MS arch, but TVs and Setboxes with HDDs, WiFi, Ethernet and USB etc. All HDMI for video interconnects.

watty

watty wrote: »

It's not a setbox. There will be no 1080p broadcasts. European setboxes will only output SD on component, by design.

Media PC type systems are USA centric in design and a market failure. Philips did Europeanised version but has ceased.

The Media future is not Tuner cards in an expensive x86/MS arch, but TVs and Setboxes with HDDs, WiFi, Ethernet and USB etc. All HDMI for video interconnects.

But for people with a setup like my own - will we be able to benefit from HD broadcasts even if not at the max resolution of the system that I have (tuner card is HD compatibe and mpeg4 so I presume so? and if so will it be near the same quality as someone with a HD set top box?

I suppose it will depend on the quality of the HD broadcast quality

Sorry bout all teh questions but I think they are worth asking especially with alot of people having modern computers with tuner inbuilt as standard and HD graphics cards as well

watty

It depends on if they add any DRM, the quality of your graphics & screen (unless it does 25fps interlace it seriously degrades, as my 1920x1200 @ 60fps does due to frame rate conversion).

Actually very few people have DTT tuner built in on PC/Laptop. Compared with number of people with TVs. Or even compared to number of computer users.

Most built in HD laptop screens can only due US frame rates, not European so all movement is blurred or jittery with 25 fps SD TV or 25fps 1080i or even 25fps "PAL Regions" DVDs in progressive mode, compared with a proper European standard SD or HD screen.

yeah my extended monitor/32 inch HDTV is running at 29 hertz (recommended max of 30 hertz interlaced possible via component) interlaced from the component graphics connection so at least the quality is good enough then - no need for a set top box then for a good while

cheers for the info

watty

That's terrible.

It means the PC & Graphics having to frame rate convert from 25fps to 29.97fps.

ALL European broadcast is 25fps. 29.97 aka 30fps is only used in NTSC countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_standards_conversion#Framerate_conversion

See can you download a driver for 25fps

If your screen is a real European HDTV, it may be directly displaying 29.97 FPS, or if not converting back to 25fps or even 50fps progressive

watty

watty wrote: »

That's terrible.

It means the PC & Graphics having to frame rate convert from 25fps to 29.97fps.

ALL European broadcast is 25fps. 29.97 aka 30fps is only used in NTSC countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_standards_conversion#Framerate_conversion

See can you download a driver for 25fps

If your screen is a real European HDTV, it may be directly displaying 29.97 FPS, or if not converting back to 25fps or even 50fps progressive

Nvidia drivers - are up to date - strange even when i remove the hide all incompatible modes it still only shows two 29 and 30 hertz - ill try and source a eurpoean version of the driver on the co.uk site but as far as i remember the drivers from bot the uk and american site gave me the same options before

Am not sure what region the tv is but was bought in ireland - is pal and NTSC compatible and the hertz reading is from the software panel for the graphics and screen res....

Seems to be the two modes the computer auto detected for the TV ( just reassigned the monitor and re detected it with the same two modes only )

cheers mate

EDIT: apparently it is running at twice the rate that my system is saying - it is the following stupid issue from microsoft as pointed out by NVIDIA in relation to my particular card and OS =>

Hello XXXX,

This support website is designed to support products purchased directly from NVIDIA, such as the NVIDIA Dual TV tuner card, NVIDIA Pure Video DVD Decoder, and QuadroPlex. We also address Presales questions about NVIDIA based products and technology.

-30Hz is Microsofts strange way to present 59.94Hz / Interlaced. NVIDIA on GPU TV Encoder support 59.94Hz or 29Hz the way the Microsoft Vista User Interface wants to reports it by cutting the refresh rate by half if it's an interlaced entry. So 30Hz is 60Hz/interlaced and 29Hz is 59.94Hz/interlaced. The TV might not be syncing so it may go black and white or wild dancing colors.

Best regards,
NVIDIA

Doesnt seem to be a driver with a 25Hz or 50Hz option - damn ye nvidia!

Anyways - sorry for taking this topic off track - just wnted to get some answers

As for the DTT - it has being very patchy today with alot of pixalation reception wise

watty

There may be a 3rd party "plugin" There was for my ATI X1600 for 50 FPS, though it's not a happy camper.

Yes PAL analogue / European Interlaced Digital is 50 fields per second = 25 fps.
Each 1/50th a second you get either all the odd lines or all the even lines. So 50Hz but 25fps interlaced

So with NTSC analog / US Interlaced Digital 60 fields per second = 30 fps (approximately*).
Each 1/60th a second you get either all the odd lines or all the even lines. So 60Hz but 30fps interlaced.

You need two "fields" each with 1/2 the lines to get the full frame.

(*B&W NTSC was really 60Hz & 30fps, but the 29.97fps change is something to do with minimising color crawl I think. All so called 60Hz @ 30 fps interlace is actually approx 59.94 Hz = 29.97FPS interlace )

Your TV will only do 60/30 and 50/25, but if you have a decent PC screen you can try de-interlacing via graphics driver and 75Hz progressive refresh. Good CRTs will do that and it a bit like so called 100Hz TVs. Not sure how many LCDs do. PC LCDs have a horrible habit of actually natively being 60Hz progressive only to matter what you try to set PC at.