The Greatest....

Einhard

I was reading a thread earlier about the recent Greatest Irish Person public poll which Linda Martin or Bosco or someone equally deserving won, and it got me to thinking about the greatest figures in world history. I mulled it over for a while and came up with a personal top ten list, and as I'm such a generous fellow, decided to post it here in boards and see what you lot think. See if we can stir up some debate and whatnot.

I use "greatest" in the same sense as Time use it when they name their Person of the Year, not in terms of likeability, but as a measure of their influence, and impact on the world.

Also, I'm listing it in Politics rather than History because its based on current opinion.

i. Jesus- Pretty obvious really. The history of Europe is, in many ways, the history of Christianity.

ii. Mohammad- Again, quite obvious. Those inspired by him re-shaped the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe in just a few decades after his death. Almost 1400 years after his death, his legacy is still bitterly contested around the world, and is the source of much global violence and instability.

iii. Martin Luther- Not as obvious as the above two, but still massively significant in terms of European, and there world history. Was to the forefront in the Protestent schism, and did more than anyone else to foment the break with the Catholic Church. The split convulsed Europe during the 17th century, and divided the continent in an unprecedented way. Also, led directly to the English Reformation which not only radically transformed the social order in Britain, but also had hugely negative consequences for this island. Furthermore, some would argue that the Protestant emphasis on the individual, and on personal salvation, played a part in the Industrial Revolution of the 19th century.

iv. Julius Caesar- By crossing the Rubicon, he single-handedly brought about the destruction of the Roman Republic, and changed the course of European history. For almost half a millenium, the governance of half the continent would be dictated on the whim of the emperor in Rome and/or Constantinople. The usurption of the Senate brought stability to the empire in the first couple of centuries, and allowed for powerful emperors to conquer ever more territory, but arguably played a role in the eventual downfall of the empire as good governence was increasingly eclipsed by internecine power struggles. Also- he conquered Rome's bogeymen, the Gauls, and opened the way for the northward expansion of imperium.

v. Caesar Augustus- Surprisingly overlooked, IMO, when the great emperors are discussed. Rome was in turmoil after the assassination of Julius Caesar, and Octavius merely ayoung boy, wth little formal military training or leadership experience. Yet he defeated both Brutus and Crassus, and then Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, and subsequently devoted his energies to cementing the new imperial system in Rome. He ruled effectively and with relative benevolence and succeeded in cementing the legacy of his uncle, Julius Caesar.

vi. Constantine- last of the Roman emperors on this list, and mentioned for two main reasons. The first is the ending of Diocletian's persecutions, and the tolerance of all religions within the empire. Allowed Christianity to flourish and become the religious behemoth that it developed into. Also, established Constantinople which went on to become one of the great cities of the world, and the inheritor of the imperial mantle. After the fall of the city in 1453, the flow of Byzantine manuscripts into Europe helped kick start the Renaissance.

vii. Charlemagne- Technically a Roman empire I suppose, but in a very different sense to the other three. On my list for a number of reasons. Firstly, he managed to unify the greater part of Christian continental Europe under his rule, and while his empire sundered soon after his death, the experience, albeit briefly, of union, is often thought to have led to the creation of the Kingdom of France centuries later. Similarly, although Germany as a single nation didn't exist until the 19th century, the idea of "German-ness" was recognised from the early Middle Ages, and can in part be traced back to Charlemagne's incorporation of various disparate tribes under his imperial rule. Also, he was the first ruler to establish a formal link between the papacy and secular powers, a bond that was to have huge ramifications throughout the medieval peroid and beyond.

viii. Gutenburg- The man who brought printing to Europe. The importance of the printed word as opposed to the hand written one is often underestimated. Without books for example, it's unlikely that the Protestent Reformation could ever have gotten off the ground. Printing made ideas accessible to a wide, secular audience for the first time and, by democratising knowledge, laid the ground work for the Enlightenment, and what some might call the emancipation of humans from the shackles of ignorance. Of course, Gutenburg wasn't the first to devise a mechanical printing process, but I think the device had a disproiportionate impact in Europe than it did in China, where it was originally developed. Also, it would be a pretty crappy list if it consisted of the likes of, Anonymous Chinese Man

ix. Ferdinand of Aragin & Isabella of Castille- As the list goes on, it becomes more and more difficult to choose between those who are jostling for entry, but I think Ferdinand and Isabella are an appropriate choice. I'm treating the two as one because they ruled jointly, and they were genuine co-regents. There are a number of seperate reasons for their inclusion. Firstly, there's the conquest of Granada and the successful completion of the 400 year Reconquisa, which paved the way for the final unification of Spain in the years after their death. This was hugely important in that it provided a major boost to Catholicism at a time when Islam was on the back foot, and marks, IMO, a turning point in the relations between the two religions. Ever since, Christianity has been in the ascendency, whilst the power and force of Islam has been declining.
There's also the minor act of financing Colombus to consider, the discovery of the Americas, and the establishment of the first truly global empire, which was to transform both Europe and the world in the centuries to come.

x. Abraham Lincoln- This choice is very much open to debate, and there were a number of others who I was considering, but the the list is limited to ten and a decision had to be made. In the event, I happen to think Honest Abe qualifies for inclusion, not due so much to the emancipation of the slaves, but for successfully preventing the secession of the Confederate states and the destruction of the Union. Had this occurred, the history of the world would have been irrevocably altered. The North would have been dramatically weakened, and with two rival states occupying the same landmass, American intervention in both World Wars could not have been gauranteed. Even had either or both sides joined the Allied powers, the diminuation of American power may have been so great as to render any intervention non-critical. Furthermore, whatever one might think of American foreign policy over the past 60 years, there can be no denying that America stood as a bulwark against Soviet expansionism in Europe after the War. A divided America, with two nations perhaps preoccupied with their own tensions, may not have been able to stand up to the USSR and the hegemony she sought in Europe and beyond. The result may have been a Europe (and world) very different from the one we see today. I know this is all hypothetical and based on supposition rather than hard fact, but I don't think it's stretching things to state that, had the Confederacy managed to secede, the consequences fore the rest of the world would have been massive. And more than anyone else, it was Abe who prevented a southern victory.

Anyway, that's my top ten list. It's far longer than I intended it to be, and I congratule anyone who makes it to the end. Still, I thought it might be interesting and provoke some debate. And even if one doesn't read the entire list, one can still take issue with individual entries!!





Thank God I copied this bloody post. I pressed enter and the entire thing disappeared on me!

fontanalis

Einhard wrote: »

iii. Martin Luther- Not as obvious as the above two, but still massively significant in terms of European, and there world history. Was to the forefront in the Protestent schism, and did more than anyone else to foment the break with the Catholic Church. The split convulsed Europe during the 17th century, and divided the continent in an unprecedented way. Also, led directly to the English Reformation which not only radically transformed the social order in Britain, but also had hugely negative consequences for this island. Furthermore, some would argue that the Protestant emphasis on the individual, and on personal salvation, played a part in the Industrial Revolution of the 19th century.

Lovely fellow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Einhard

fontanalis wrote: »

Lovely fellow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Few great people are ever particularly nice. Hitler was great; wouldn't exactly be flavour of the month for most people.

fontanalis

Einhard wrote: »

Few great people are ever particularly nice. Hitler was great; wouldn't exactly be flavour of the month for most people.

Sorry, I sped read your post and now see your definition of greatest.

Hows about people like Genghis Khan, Atilla the Hun etc

paky

i would of thought of hitler aswel

Einhard

paky wrote: »

i would of thought of hitler aswel

Yeah, thought of him, but left him out because the change he wrought didn't really out last him. If anything, I'd have had Lenin, Stalin, or even Marx instead of Adolf, but even then Communism was really only a 20th century political force.

Laminations

In tema of greats that shaped human history I'd have to include Socrates or Plato or some ancient Greek dude as well as di Vinci and other great thinkers of the Renaissance. I'd also include more men of science in general (e.g. Darwin, Einstein) your list includes lots of men of faith but I think science will be the greater shaper

paky

Einhard wrote: »

Yeah, thought of him, but left him out because the change he wrought didn't really out last him. If anything, I'd have had Lenin, Stalin, or even Marx instead of Adolf, but even then Communism was really only a 20th century political force.

ya but hitler was probably the most charasmatic leader in history

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q-6H4xOUrs

Wolfe Tone

Definitely Socrates or Plato in there somewhere. Platos Republic is one of the most significant works ever.

he single-handedly brought about the destruction of the Roman Republic

I wouldn't agree with that either tbh.


And about Hitler, I am awaiting someone to link to the Adolf the Great site... hahah

Wolfe Tone

It has been argued that much of Platos work is that of Socrates simply written down.

Einhard

Laminations wrote: »

In tema of greats that shaped human history I'd have to include Socrates or Plato or some ancient Greek dude as well as di Vinci and other great thinkers of the Renaissance. I'd also include more men of science in general (e.g. Darwin, Einstein) your list includes lots of men of faith but I think science will be the greater shaper

Well there's only three religious representatives on the list, and considering the massive impact they had on the world, I don't think it's disproportionate.

I agree to the point regarding the great thinkers and philosophers. If I were to include anyone from the Greek tradition, it would have to be Plato or Aristotle. Socrates didn't achieve a whole lot expect piss people off (ie, make them think) and inspire later generations. The philosophies of the other two were greatly important in the academic tradition in Europe after they were re-discovered, and influenced all sorts of thinkers. However, I think that had either of them not existed, the world would be boradly similar to the one we live in, and that can't be said for the others on the list. IMO that is.

As for the scientists, it was a toss up between Darwin and Abe for the final spot. I think there's a good argument to be made for Darwin's inclusion, as he not only made a scientific breaktrhough, but actually changed how humanity percieves itself (well, changed how rational humans percieve themselves).

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that either tbh.

Well not in the sense that he brought it down all by himself, but that if it were anyone else in his position the Republic would probably have survived. For a few decades anyway.

Einhard

fontanalis wrote: »

Hows about people like Genghis Khan, Atilla the Hun etc

Great certainly, but their achievements were too transient and short lived to merit the greatest in history.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

It has been argued that much of Platos work is that of Socrates simply written down.

Yeah, but we can't know that for sure. I wouldn't include people on the basis of what they might have wrote.

Wolfe Tone

Indeed, but the disintegration and collapse of the republic had started long before, before Sulla even. Catiline tried too. I get your point though. I would rank Octavian above him though personally.

Wolfe Tone

Are Platos dialogues accounts of Socrates? Or made up by Plato? Are you crediting Plato with too much?

Personally I feel that the Republic is essentially a transcribed series of Socrates' ideas, with Plato dropping in some of his own ideas here and there.

sceptre

History & Heritage thread rather than a Politics one - moving it there after some necessary cleanup. While I realise it's based on current opinion as stated in the OP, it isn't a politics thread.

mikemac

Charles Darwin has to be in the top ten

CDfm

It is a very Western Orientated list but it is massive to pick the greatest.

Qin Shi Huang was the First Emperor of a unified China and who gave China its name ruled from 246 B.C. to 210 B.C.and it was an enduring Empire. Easily Julius Caesars or Charlemanges equal.

When you look at the Golden Age of Arab Medicine Arab physicians translated the works of the Greeks and in lots of areas western medicine spent a 1000 years catching up.

Ibn Sina 980 -1037 was Leonardo da Vincis equal if not better as was Ibn al Haytham predated Leonardo in optics and anatomy by 500 years, Hunayn ibn Ishaq was a polymath and the foremost Arab thinker of his day.

Al-Jahiz was writting about evolution in the 9th Century more than 900 years before Darwin.

EDIT and the person in the island Bakery Isle of Mull who makes delicious shortbread.

CDfm

Its nice to see an American like Abraham Lincoln on the list.

I love titbits and here is one on Edwin Booth (brother of John Wilkes Booth -President Lincolns Assasain) saving the life of Robert Lincoln the Presidents son.

Robert Lincoln and Edwin Booth

In 1909, Robert Lincoln wrote of an incident from 1864. He was on a train platform where the crowd had pushed him against the wall of the train car which started moving. He was twisted off his feet and fell in between the car and the platform. The quick thinking man who grabbed Lincoln and pulled him to safety was the famous actor Edwin Booth, brother of the soon-to-be presidential assassin John Wilkes Booth.
Lincoln recognized Booth but Booth did not know Lincoln. A friend of Edwin, Col. Adam Badeau, served with Robert Lincoln on General Grant's staff. Bedeau heard the story from Lincoln and wrote to Booth praising his heroism and informing Booth of who he had saved. This knowledge brought some comfort to Edwin who had been shamed by his brother's actions

http://virginia-travel.suite101.com/article.cfm/the-other-president-and-lincolns-son-in-arlington-cemetery