shooting crows - legal ?

brianfrancis45

I was out shooting a few rabbits on some land where I have permission.
The farmer approached me and asked me if I could do him a favour by shooting as many crows as I could for him. He told me that he had a big problem with them as they were crapping on animal feed and just a couple of weeks ago some of his cows picked up salmonella because of this and had to be put down which cost him a few thousand euros.

Obviously, I was willling to help , as he has been good enough to let me shoot on his land. The light was fading and I only had a limited number of cartridges left but I managed to knock about 10 or so crows. The famer was happy enough and I told him that I would go back another day with a good supply of cartridges and clear out a good few crows for him. The place is alive with crows - literally hundreds of them in a long line of very high trees that line the drive way up to the farm house.

Anyways, just as I packed up and walked back with me new young springer to the car which was parked on the public road just outside the farm, I noticed another car parked next to mine and out jumps this fella pushing his finger in my chest and shouting at me that he had seen me shooting numerous crows which was not acceptable, not legal and that he had taken my licence plate number and would be reporting me to the ''authorities''. A really pushy/arrogant b**lix he was with his shouting and roaring and to make it worse he was making me young dog cower nervously. My initial reaction was to put the gun and dog in the car and then put a few manners on him. However, I tried to play it as cool as I could , so I ignored his ranting but told him nicely but firmly that his finger had to come off my chest right then or there woudln't be any more discussion. He got the message and I then explained to him nice and calmly that the farmer had a major problem with the crows contaminating animal feed which resulted in some of his cows dying and therefore the farmer asked me to shoot some of the crows as their numbers had got out of control. I hoped that this explanation would calm him down but this guy just wouldn't have it and kept ranting on that shooting crows was illegal and especially so during this time of year as they were still nesting etc.. and that he would be reporting me to the authorities . I tried to reason with him but he just woudln't stop with his blah blah blah so I finally flipped and told him to f**k off, get away from me and never to approach me in such a way again. He then drove off with tyres screeching - a right a**hole.


I must say that it pissed me off that this guy had approached me in such an arrogant and aggressive way and had taken the pleasure out of my evenings shooting:(. Whilst I'm not really worried about him reporting me,
I must admit that I never shoot crows ( with the exception of grey crows which I do shoot whenever the opportunity arises), so I don't know if its legal or not to shoot ordinary crows. In this instance especially, when they were causing so much damage , my feeling is that they are considered as pests and that it was legal for me to shoot them at the request of the farmer. Do any of you lads know the score on that one ?

Thanks

ormondprop

as far as i know they are perfectly legal to shoot all year round as they are not protected or game birds so they are vermin, so i believe your new friend wouldn't have a leg to stand on if he reported you but i'll leave it to 1 of the mods to clarify my beliefs, i grew up on a farm and often have the same trouble so i wouldnt hesitate to shoot them any time of the year, flying rats, the less of them the better
PS. nice shooting and keep up the good work

kieran1141

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

I was out shooting a few rabbits on some land where I have permission.
The farmer approached me and asked me if I could do him a favour by shooting as many crows as I could for him. He told me that he had a big problem with them as they were crapping on animal feed and just a couple of weeks ago some of his cows picked up salmonella because of this and had to be put down which cost him a few thousand euros.

Obviously, I was willling to help , as he has been good enough to let me shoot on his land. The light was fading and I only had a limited number of cartridges left but I managed to knock about 10 or so crows. The famer was happy enough and I told him that I would go back another day with a good supply of cartridges and clear out a good few crows for him. The place is alive with crows - literally hundreds of them in a long line of very high trees that line the drive way up to the farm house.

Anyways, just as I packed up and walked back with me new young springer to the car which was parked on the public road just outside the farm, I noticed another car parked next to mine and out jumps this fella pushing his finger in my chest and shouting at me that he had seen me shooting numerous crows which was not acceptable, not legal and that he had taken my licence plate number and would be reporting me to the ''authorities''. A really pushy/arrogant b**lix he was with his shouting and roaring and to make it worse he was making me young dog cower nervously. My initial reaction was to put the gun and dog in the car and then put a few manners on him. However, I tried to play it as cool as I could , so I ignored his ranting but told him nicely but firmly that his finger had to come off my chest right then or there woudln't be any more discussion. He got the message and I then explained to him nice and calmly that the farmer had a major problem with the crows contaminating animal feed which resulted in some of his cows dying and therefore the farmer asked me to shoot some of the crows as their numbers had got out of control. I hoped that this explanation would calm him down but this guy just wouldn't have it and kept ranting on that shooting crows was illegal and especially so during this time of year as they were still nesting etc.. and that he would be reporting me to the authorities . I tried to reason with him but he just woudln't stop with his blah blah blah so I finally flipped and told him to f**k off, get away from me and never to approach me in such a way again. He then drove off with tyres screeching - a right a**hole.


I must say that it pissed me off that this guy had approached me in such an arrogant and aggressive way and had taken the pleasure out of my evenings shooting:(. Whilst I'm not really worried about him reporting me,
I must admit that I never shoot crows ( with the exception of grey crows which I do shoot whenever the opportunity arises), so I don't know if its legal or not to shoot ordinary crows. In this instance especially, when they were causing so much damage , my feeling is that they are considered as pests and that it was legal for me to shoot them at the request of the farmer. Do any of you lads know the score on that one ?

Thanks

it is legal to shoot crows they are vermin, i've been shooting crows for the last week every day for farmers over standing corn, greycrows, crows, magpie's and pigeons can be shot all year round, i shoot them from june to september for farmers when they ring. not alone is he an a-hole he's talkin through his a-hole, i seen what starlings and crows done to animal feed early in the year.

johngalway

You're fine. If anything he's assaulted you. If he keeps it up you could possibly add harassment.

FISMA

Brian,
You must learn to stay quiet. There is nothing to be gained by you when engaging in dialogue with the likes of this person. There is nothing that you could have said to have changed this zealot's mind - hence, say nothing.

Idiots like this only supply the proverbial rope - you end up hanging yourself.

What worries me is that you were a bit nebulous on the law, enough to cast a bit of doubt. If you were unsure, then why did you answer his questions? Even worse, you admitted that indeed it was you doing the shooting. Why? ... Just say nothing.

What did you gain from the conversation - less than nothing.

What could you have lost from the conversation - lot's.

Again, Brian, I am not trying to be mean or offend you, however, you need to cover your @$$.

Talking to idiots is like being in a deposition. You are not proving your innocence, nor do you have to or can you. Things that you say will not prove your innocence, but may come back to haunt you.

Concisely, stay quiet and don't engage people like this.

CJhaughey

I would take his Reg and report him to the Gardai as being abusive and assaulting you.
I would consider this a serious enough matter all things considered.

J.R.

Greycrows, magpies, rooks, jackdaws, feral pigeons & pigeons are no longer considered vermin and cannot be shot the whole year round.

They are all protected the whole year round - except pigeons who have a shooting season the same as pheasants ....1st Nov. - 31st Jan.

However, under EU derogation greycrows, magpies, rooks, jackdaws, feral pigeons & pigeons can be shot if causing damage or are likely to cause damage to crops, livestock etc. As greycrows & magpies are likely to cause damage the whole year round they, technically, can be shot the whole year round.

To shoot greycrows, magpies, rooks, jackdaws, feral pigeons & pigeons you must have:

1. the permission of the landowner
2. be sure they have been causing damage or are likely to do so.

You had both conditions fulfilled so were perfectly within your rights to shoot the crows....these were more than likey rooks or jackdaws which are covered under the derogation. You were 100% right in my opinion.

Your 'friend' was right when he stated they were protected but was wrong when he stated that you couldn't shoot them.


Check the NARGC website for the 'Pigeon Shooting Case'.

Here's a copy of the EU Derogation for 2008.......saying that I haven't seen an update printed since then.



If you're a member of NARGC it may be no harm to check with them to have all your facts right or ring the phone numbers in photo attachment.

session savage

Fair play to ya for not shoving the stock of your gun up his arse. The prick.... so.... if you need any help managing them crows , I would be more than happy

Tackleberrywho

session savage wrote: »

Fair play to ya for not shoving the stock of your gun up his arse. The prick.... so.... if you need any help managing them crows , I would be more than happy

me too!

Tackleberrywho

J.R. wrote: »

Greycrows, magpies, rooks, jackdaws, feral pigeons & pigeons are no longer considered vermin and cannot be shot the whole year round.

They are all protected the whole year round - except pigeons who have a shooting season the same as pheasants ....1st Nov. - 31st Jan.

However, under EU derogation greycrows, magpies, rooks, jackdaws, feral pigeons & pigeons can be shot if causing damage or are likely to cause damage to crops, livestock etc. As greycrows & magpies are likely to cause damage the whole year round they, technically, can be shot the whole year round.

To shoot greycrows, magpies, rooks, jackdaws, feral pigeons & pigeons you must have:

1. the permission of the landowner
2. be sure they have been causing damage or are likely to do so.

You had both conditions fulfilled so were perfectly within your rights to shoot the crows....these were more than likey rooks or jackdaws which are covered under the derogation. You were 100% right in my opinion.

Your 'friend' was right when he stated they were protected but was wrong when he stated that you couldn't shoot them.


Check the NARGC website for the 'Pigeon Shooting Case'.

Here's a copy of the EU Derogation for 2008.......saying that I haven't seen an update printed since then.



If you're a member of NARGC it may be no harm to check with them to have all your facts right or ring the phone numbers in photo attachment.

I know of an idiot who was done for shooting crows in a field with a shotgun, he did not know they were protected unless causing damage.

he also was shooting very close to a town, as I say. idiot.

brianfrancis45

Thanks to all who took the time to reply. I really appreciate the information and advice.

meathstevie

You have done nothing wrong, it's your man who has most likely committed the offence called assault. And don't forget that at the time you had a firearm in your possession which puts you in an even more precarious position when someone is being aggressive towards you. A magnificent story can be quickly concocted by the likes of your man.

If I were you I'd give the folks in the local Garda Station a little heads up about your man.

foxer 204

i know as stated above you are supposed to have landowers permisson but would that not be covered in so far as being in a gun club
also say carrion crows , grey crows and mags take pheasant eggs ,duck eggs etc. would this be grounds enough to shoot the predators of the birds we release as a gun club ?

Tackleberrywho

foxer 204 wrote: »

i know as stated above you are supposed to have landowers permisson but would that not be covered in so far as being in a gun club
also say carrion crows , grey crows and mags take pheasant eggs ,duck eggs etc. would this be grounds enough to shoot the predators of the birds we release as a gun club ?

if you FARM birds, and other birds attack and kill them

Just know the law

foxer 204

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

if you FARM birds, and other birds attack and kill them

Just know the law

so we`re a farming club

brianfrancis45

meathstevie wrote: »

You have done nothing wrong, it's your man who has most likely committed the offence called assault. And don't forget that at the time you had a firearm in your possession which puts you in an even more precarious position when someone is being aggressive towards you. A magnificent story can be quickly concocted by the likes of your man.

If I were you I'd give the folks in the local Garda Station a little heads up about your man.

Thanks. I already gave the farmer description of that fella and his car (unfortunately I didn't get the reg number). He didn't recognise either and said that this was definitely not a local. He also said that if this fella was ever to approach or hassle me again, I should just tell him to go and speak to the farmer if he wanted to know anything about the shooting of crows on the land and to otherwise ignore him. I will also speak to a local garda and explain the situation to him, just so that he can take a note of it.

Rovi

Here's the Dept. of the Environment's big page of (Wildlife) legal stuff:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/Heritage/NatureConservation/

Here are what appear to be the current Declarations:
Declaration regarding Cavan, Donegal, Monaghan (pdf, 626 kb)

Declaration regarding Leinster (pdf, 623 kb)

Declaration regarding Munster (pdf, 627 kb)

Declaration regarding Connaught (pdf, 616 kb)

They APPEAR (at a cursory glance) to all be identical, excepting the name of the Province to which they apply, have a good read of the one that covers your own area to be sure though.

Basically, ALL wild birds are now afforded 'Protected' status, and may not be interfered with except under the terms of these Declarations.


OP: It sounds like you handled the situation very well, and it looks too like you're fully legit regarding the shooting (crows doing damage, permission of the owner, within the dates specified in the Declarations), so your antagonist doesn't have a leg to stand on.
As others have said, it might be no harm for you to let your local Gardai know what happened, and it would be good if the landowner were to do the same too.



Edited to add: 4000th post! WOOT!

homerhop

Next time yo find yourself in that situation, take out your mobile phone and record the incident. Its very easy for an idiot like that to claim you threatened him with a firearm and the way john law is at the moment you would find your gun confinscated.

Tackleberrywho

Rovi wrote: »

Here's the Dept. of the Environment's big page of (Wildlife) legal stuff:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/Heritage/NatureConservation/

Here are what appear to be the current Declarations:
Declaration regarding Cavan, Donegal, Monaghan (pdf, 626 kb)

Declaration regarding Leinster (pdf, 623 kb)

Declaration regarding Munster (pdf, 627 kb)

Declaration regarding Connaught (pdf, 616 kb)

They APPEAR (at a cursory glance) to all be identical, excepting the name of the Province to which they apply, have a good read of the one that covers your own area to be sure though.

Basically, ALL wild birds are now afforded 'Protected' status, and may not be interfered with except under the terms of these Declarations.


OP: It sounds like you handled the situation very well, and it looks too like you're fully legit regarding the shooting (crows doing damage, permission of the owner, within the dates specified in the Declarations), so your antagonist doesn't have a leg to stand on.
As others have said, it might be no harm for you to let your local Gardai know what happened, and it would be good if the landowner were to do the same too.



Edited to add: 4000th post! WOOT!

I must print it out, laminate and carry in the car:D:D

brianfrancis45

Thanks for that Rovi. I looked up the section under Munster and I see that Grey Crows, Magpies, Rooks and Jackdaws may be legally shot between 1st May -31st August when they are causing damage/spreading disease. Does that mean that none of those species can be shot legally at any other time of the year ? If so, that really surprises me
as I would have thought that there may be a fair share of shooters that wouldn't be aware of that and when they are out during the regular winter shooting season targetting game species, they would be inclined to shoot greys + maggers if they came accross them.

Tackleberrywho

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

Thanks for that Rovi. I looked up the section under Munster and I see that Grey Crows, Magpies, Rooks and Jackdaws may be legally shot between 1st May -31st August when they are causing damage/spreading disease. Does that mean that none of those species can be shot legally at any other time of the year ? If so, that really surprises me
as I would have thought that there may be a fair share of shooters that wouldn't be aware of that and when they are out during the regular winter shooting season targetting game species, they would be inclined to shoot greys + maggers if they came accross them.

The NARGC is fairly good at educating their members AFAIK.
Vermin is animals doing damage.

Its more important that people can see the difference between harm incurred by animals/birds.
It's similar to how a section 42 can be applied for. If animals or birds are doing harm. Some fishermen have got licences to shoot seals etc.

It is very important that all hunters/shooters verse themselves with all rules and regulations before thay start out.

When in doubt, don't do it. Stop, ask someone who knows or do a search on the net.

Grizzly 45

There are handier little recording gizmos out there and not stupidly expensive for doing covert recordings of rabid nutcases like that.Usually these people freak out even more if somone is overtly recording them with a camera or mobile phone and usually in good anti tradition revert to violence.
There is a nifty pen/covert camera voice recorder on Ebay for appx 60 euros that does a relatively good job of visual and audi o recording.Most important in any of this is that your recording is date and time stamped as evidence.

J.R.

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

Thanks for that Rovi. I looked up the section under Munster and I see that Grey Crows, Magpies, Rooks and Jackdaws may be legally shot between 1st May -31st August when they are causing damage/spreading disease. Does that mean that none of those species can be shot legally at any other time of the year ? If so, that really surprises me
as I would have thought that there may be a fair share of shooters that wouldn't be aware of that and when they are out during the regular winter shooting season targetting game species, they would be inclined to shoot greys + maggers if they came accross them.

A new derogation is issued every four months

- there will be another from 1st Sept - 31st Dec. which will cover the winter,

another after that from 1st Feb. - 30th Apr. etc.

The order only lasts four months but is constantly renewed.

.17hmr

Thanks for that ROVI good read.

gary29428

So whats the story with the annual vermin shoot competition that takes place every year between the various gun clubs around the country. If I'm reading it right if I'm out shooting woodcock in Nov on gun club land and a greycrow happens by, if I shoot it I'm in trouble, the greycrow is protected.... I've handed in lots of crow and magpie wings last season. This is definetly something I have to get straight.

Birdnuts

gary29428 wrote: »

So whats the story with the annual vermin shoot competition that takes place every year between the various gun clubs around the country. If I'm reading it right if I'm out shooting woodcock in Nov on gun club land and a greycrow happens by, if I shoot it I'm in trouble, the greycrow is protected.... I've handed in lots of crow and magpie wings last season. This is definetly something I have to get straight.

I don't think you've anything to worry about - the derogations mentioned earlier covers you:)

kildare.17hmr

People like that annoy the fcuk out of me! Dont think id be too quick to start shoutin the odds at some fella with a shotgun ether:D

kenneths

didn't NARGC go to court to defend shooting crows/pigeons etc....

there's an article on the main site page titled...
"PIGEON COURT CASE - NARGC VINDICATES RIGHT OF FARMERS TO PROTECT CROPS"