article "will Warren Beatty ever accept his girl becoming a boy?"

Links234

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1292924/Will-Warren-Beatty-accept-girl-boy.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

God this is a horrible piece of writing, not least because of how much it focuses on warren beatty's selfishness but how they repeatedly refer to stephen as "she" and make an almost sarcastic concession at one point when referring to his name before going back to female pronouns

Stephen, as we should now call 'him'

Then there's this

Confusingly, although she wishes to become male, it is clear from her writings and blogs that she is attracted to men.

Some men are attracted to other men! What's confusing about it?
Gender identity and sexuality are completely different things, and this really annoys me because I get it all the time, people are really surprised that I'm attracted to women. it's as if people assume that female-to-male transsexuals are just extreme lesbians and male-to-female are extreme gays.

The worst is this psychotherapist quote

In other cases, it is more psychologically complex. It may be that, if she wants to live as a gay man, she is seeking to write women out of the equation because of what she feels relationships are like between men and women.'

THE ****

Frei

The Daily Mail is unfortunately a pile of ****e, mainly read by people afraid of anything different i.e immigrants, gays, feminists..

Chuchoter

The daily mail is a load of ****e, and if you try to comment and point out a blatant mistake they won't post your comment. Stephen looks like a sweetiepie though, his face reminds me of kurt from glee! :P

Links234

yeah, you're both right, but I can't help getting annoyed at such nonsense, especially the psychobabble rubbish that tries to explain away his identity.

baby and crumble

off topic a bit, but 12,000 women? WTF???:eek::eek:

Jim_Bob_2010

An ostensibly straight woman with all the proper parts to have a normal heterosexual relationship with a man undergoing a sex change to now have an abnormal hetero/homosexual relationship with a man is unusual. Frankly posters must realise that this is atypical behavior and something most people will never understand. I enjoy reading this forum and have done so for quite some time, however I often feel that the posters here are sometimes out of touch with reality when they expect people not to find this type of thing very odd.

rainbow kirby

Jim_Bob_2010 wrote: »

however I often feel that the posters here are sometimes out of touch with reality when they expect people not to find this type of thing very odd.

Stephen is a gay FtM, there's not much more *to* understand here.

Links234

Jim_Bob_2010 wrote: »

An ostensibly straight woman with all the proper parts to have a normal heterosexual relationship with a man undergoing a sex change to now have an abnormal hetero/homosexual relationship with a man is unusual.

you're making a LOT of assumptions here:
1. that sexual attraction can somehow trump a person's gender identity, It can't
2. that he is straight woman with all the proper parts, he is not
3. that a person's sexuality is just who they're attracted to when it is much more than that
4. that the goal is to have a homosexual relationship when it is not

I've seen the argument put to many MtF lesbians that "why would you want to be a woman, you'd get more girls as a guy" or "if you're attracted to women you're already anatomically correct" and those are statements that also seems to make an assumption that MtF heterosexuals transition for sexual reasons - to get guys. In both senses, it ignores a person's gender identity as the reason for transition, and if you're someone who's internal sense of self has always matched up with your physical sex, it can be easy to overlook, but gender identity is the single driving force behind transition. I am attracted to women, but that by no means makes me reconsider transition because I might get more women if I continued to struggle on pretending to be male.

anyway it doesn't matter how many more potential relationships I could have as 'male' because I simply am not male, and a relationship that would be built on that kind of pretense simply doesn't work. I've tried to make such intimate relationships work in the past, but I don't function as male, end of. and I don't have the "proper parts" either, because that not only assumes that those are the right parts for me, it also assumes that I have a male sexuality. I don't. I have a female sexuality, and that doesn't just drive who I'm physically attracted to, but also influences how I desire to be touched and how I expect my partner to touch me. I've no desire to be touched or treated as a male in an intimate relationship, it's pretty much an instant mood killer

Jim_Bob_2010 wrote: »

Frankly posters must realise that this is atypical behavior and something most people will never understand. I enjoy reading this forum and have done so for quite some time, however I often feel that the posters here are sometimes out of touch with reality when they expect people not to find this type of thing very odd.

it's not atypical at all, and the only way you could argue it is atypical is if you argue that homosexuality in both men and women is atypical. transsexual men are exactly that, men. and transsexual women are exactly that, women. all transsexuals have the same diversity as cissexuals (people who's gender identity match their physical sex).
so what you are saying is, that it is atypical for a man to find another man attractive

I'd also say that it's ridiculous to think that most people will never understand. I don't believe that transsexuality or homosexuality are out of the realms of cissexuals or heterosexuals understanding.

Helen Boyd said in her book "she's not the man I married":

"But the one thing you learn when you hang out with someone who might be transsexual is that almost nothing is more important than gender; not relationships, not children, not employment, not career goals or financial stability. When something isn't right with someone's gender, nothing could be more wrong or more important."

She has an extremely firm understanding of the gravity of what a transsexual feels, and you do a disservice to the intelligence of the average person to say that won't understand. I think with an open mind anyone can understand and relate

Annasopra

Jim_Bob_2010 wrote: »

An ostensibly straight woman with all the proper parts to have a normal heterosexual relationship with a man undergoing a sex change to now have an abnormal hetero/homosexual relationship with a man is unusual. Frankly posters must realise that this is atypical behavior and something most people will never understand. I enjoy reading this forum and have done so for quite some time, however I often feel that the posters here are sometimes out of touch with reality when they expect people not to find this type of thing very odd.

I understand your assumption/reaction that Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are somehow tied together and that MTF would then somehow be attracted to males or FTM would then somehow be attracted to males - 8 years ago I thought the same way and found this very hard to get my head around and then I met some trans people and understood it a lot more. I agree that there is a huge problem with a lack of understanding amongst the general populace. It won't always be like this. I do on the other hand find you labelling him as 'an ostensibly straight woman' ignorant. You said yourself you do read this forum on a regular basis so you must have a little understanding but evidently not!

spurious

It would seem to me that the most important 'necessary' part for having a heterosexual relationship with a man would be to consider yourself a woman. Stephen doesn't, so he can't.

I do feel sorry for him, that he has had to wait this long. Just shows, people in the public eye who I would have considered to be fairly liberal, mustn't be, if he didn't feel in that household that he could be himself.

deirdre_dub

Jim_Bob_2010 wrote: »

Frankly posters must realise that this is atypical behavior and something most people will never understand.

And it is something that no-one will ever get to understand so long as such tripe as was published remains unchallenged.

Frei

How are FTM's received in the world of gay men? I have heard of lesbians who like FTM's but would not go out with a MTF?


A transgender couple
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/27/LVDT1DI74J.DTL

Rev Hellfire

Frei wrote: »

How are FTM's received in the world of gay men? I have heard of lesbians who like FTM's but would not go out with a MTF?

That's an interesting question, you'd imagine that gays would be a more accepting/accommodating lot what with the association between the gay scene and the transgender one.

Links234

Frei wrote: »

How are FTM's received in the world of gay men? I have heard of lesbians who like FTM's but would not go out with a MTF?

I don't know if I can really answer that question because not being FtM I don't have that perspective, but it does seem to me that they can be pretty well received by gay men. Like for example: http://www.towleroad.com/2010/06/transgender-man-wins-international-mr-leather-competition.html
I've seen plenty of gay men say that buck angel is hot too

I think that to some lesbians (very butch/masculine ones especially), there's a tendency to hold masculinity and masculine expression in a higher regard than femininity and feminine expression, and in the same way they will often scorn feminine or 'lipstick' lesbians for their feminine expression, MtF transsexuals are treated with the same scorn and their femininity viewed as suspect. There's also plenty of trans hatred in literature by authors like Janice Raymond which has helped foster transphobia and hatred in the feminist movement.

Frei wrote: »

A transgender couple
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/27/LVDT1DI74J.DTL

That's a lovely article. I know a few trans couples online like that, it's very cool when that happens.

L.Jenkins

I think this thread sums up everything I fear, not being accepted by family. Friends have been good so far, yet I have to tell male friends. Friends come and go and if they choose not to accept me then so be it, but family are like a safety net and if they can't accept me, then honestly I don't know.

deirdre_dub

Links234 wrote: »

I think that to some lesbians (very butch/masculine ones especially), there's a tendency to hold masculinity and masculine expression in a higher regard than femininity and feminine expression, and in the same way they will often scorn feminine or 'lipstick' lesbians for their feminine expression, MtF transsexuals are treated with the same scorn and their femininity viewed as suspect.

I've been at the womens group in Outhouse on a Thursday night a few times, and I've never experienced anything other than total acceptance. It may be true to say that the women there tend to be of the "lipstick" variety, but I've also received acceptance and support from a butch girl I know.

There's also plenty of trans hatred in literature by authors like Janice Raymond which has helped foster transphobia and hatred in the feminist movement.

There are also some trans feminists. There is also a lot of trans hatred in literature written by cisgendered straight people, yet I've received amazing acceptance and support from cisgendered straight people.

deirdre_dub

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

I think this thread sums up everything I fear, not being accepted by family. Friends have been good so far, yet I have to tell male friends. Friends come and go and if they choose not to accept me then so be it, but family are like a safety net and if they can't accept me, then honestly I don't know.

You won't know if they will accept you until you give them a chance.

About 6 months before I told my Dad, he was reading a review of "Breakfast on Pluto" (a fairly good, if somewhat dark, fictional film about a transgendered M2F), and I heard him let out a snicker. I was afraid that that meant he had some transphobia. He has turned out to be a more amazingly supportive person than I could have imagined.

deirdre_dub

deirdre_dub wrote: »

You won't know if they will accept you until you give them a chance.

There are ways that you might be able to get some information about how they might react. Try and bring up the subject in a general way, for instance. However I would caution that it is too easy to interpret their response too negatively, as happened with me and my father.

Links234

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I've been at the womens group in Outhouse on a Thursday night a few times, and I've never experienced anything other than total acceptance. It may be true to say that the women there tend to be of the "lipstick" variety, but I've also received acceptance and support from a butch girl I know.

There are also some trans feminists. There is also a lot of trans hatred in literature written by cisgendered straight people, yet I've received amazing acceptance and support from cisgendered straight people.

You're making the mistake of assuming I'm making blanket statements here, when I'm not. I only said "some" lesbians, and certainly didn't suggest that a hatred of trans women was a unifying trend among all of them. I'm just saying that such a hatred does exist in some lesbians and feminists. Michigan, eh? I'm certainly not doubting the existence of trans feminists either, I did after all call myself a lesbian feminist transgirl, remember?

Anyway, I'm just trying to put things in perspective for Frei, when they said that they had heard of lesbians who like FTMs but wouldn't go out with MTFs.

deirdre_dub

Links234 wrote: »

You're making the mistake of assuming I'm making blanket statements here

Sorry - I was tired when I made my post, and I should know by now not to post under such circumstances!

Links234

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Sorry - I was tired when I made my post, and I should know by now not to post under such circumstances!

Not at all, and it was worth posting just for you recounting your good experiences. That's a good thing, and reflects well on Ireland's LGBT community.

baby and crumble

I have a small question- if a lesbian is attracted to a ftm trans guy, surely that would place her more towards the bisexual side of things? I'm only asking because ftm, by very definition is a man, but a lesbian is a woman who is attracted to women, so how does that work?

I'm just asking out of curiosity. I'm a lesbian and while I'm sure I've been attracted to some mtf trans girls in my time (for the fair and simple reason is a hot girl is a hot girl- i've got a quite the roving eye! :cool:) i've yet to be attracted to any man, so that would also preclude ftm men...

Links234

zoegh wrote: »

I have a small question- if a lesbian is attracted to a ftm trans guy, surely that would place her more towards the bisexual side of things? I'm only asking because ftm, by very definition is a man, but a lesbian is a woman who is attracted to women, so how does that work?

I'm just asking out of curiosity. I'm a lesbian and while I'm sure I've been attracted to some mtf trans girls in my time (for the fair and simple reason is a hot girl is a hot girl- i've got a quite the roving eye! :cool:) i've yet to be attracted to any man, so that would also preclude ftm men...

I just don't know zoegh
On one hand, I think human sexuality is remarkably complex and diverse and doesn't neatly fit into little boxes like gay or straight and so on.

On the other hand, there's events like the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival with the "womyn born womyn only" policy that didn't allow trans women to attend, but that trans men regularly attended, and even performed onstage. So there's some degree of transphobia there and an unwillingness to recognise the genders of trans women, and trans men are included on the grounds that they were 'born and socialized' as girls. So really, there's a bit of a refusal on both ends to recognise the genders of both trans women and trans men. And I imagine that there are some cisgender women out there who would like to date FtM because they view them as extreme lesbians. Sadly, it might be down to a transphobic perspective on the part of such lesbians. But I can't really say.

deirdre_dub

zoegh wrote: »

I have a small question- if a lesbian is attracted to a ftm trans guy, surely that would place her more towards the bisexual side of things? I'm only asking because ftm, by very definition is a man, but a lesbian is a woman who is attracted to women, so how does that work?

Labels, labels, labels.

You are attracted to whomever and whatever you are attracted to. The label you put on the experience is up to you.

For instance, I am a pre-op M2F transsexual, and I label myself "straight". So what does that mean? I'm pre-op - I'm still biologically male - so does that mean I'm attracted to women? And, I identify as female, so does that mean I'm attracted to men? The answer is - "it depends". It depends on whether I define my sexuality in terms of biology (in which case I'm saying I'm attracted to women), or whether I define it in terms of the gender dynamic between two people (in which case I'm saying I'm attracted to men).

(The answer, by the way, is that I define my sexuality in terms of the gender dynamic. Though I've cheated a bit - I'm probably actually bisexual).

baby and crumble

well my point was more in answer to this point made earlier in the thread:

I have heard of lesbians who like FTM's but would not go out with a MTF?

I understand how people are attracted to people. I call myself lesbian because that's what i am, i am attracted to women. to live within society you at least need to function somewhat within the vocabulary. (my opinion, anyway). What i'm saying is i find it odd that a woman who labels herself a lesbian would be attracted to a ftm guy, and that he would be ok with it, especially if she persisted in identifying as a lesbian- that is, a woman who is attracted to women. surely in some way, that is refusing to see him as a man?

Links234

zoegh wrote: »

What i'm saying is i find it odd that a woman who labels herself a lesbian would be attracted to a ftm guy, and that he would be ok with it, especially if she persisted in identifying as a lesbian- that is, a woman who is attracted to women. surely in some way, that is refusing to see him as a man?

but if two people love each other, isn't that what matters?

If I was in a relationship with a woman I love (and I was at that stage completely a woman myself too, after transition, SRS and everything), and she loved me too, but she didn't consider herself a lesbian, is that something worth throwing the relationship out the window over?

baby and crumble

Well I just think that it shows a lack of acknowledgement somehow of the true gender, you know? and i'm not saying that it would be worth getting shot of someone you love, but i'd have to question whether or not she really does love you, and respect who you are. i'd also have to question her understanding of who she is, too. if she's a woman going out with a woman but doesn't think she's gay because you used to be a man, well... that's a bit disrespectful, right?

deirdre_dub

zoegh wrote: »

Well I just think that it shows a lack of acknowledgement somehow of the true gender, you know? and i'm not saying that it would be worth getting shot of someone you love, but i'd have to question whether or not she really does love you, and respect who you are. i'd also have to question her understanding of who she is, too. if she's a woman going out with a woman but doesn't think she's gay because you used to be a man, well... that's a bit disrespectful, right?

If that was the reason why she didn't consider herself a lesbian, then I would tend to agree with you. However, there are other reasons why she might not consider herself to be a lesbian. For instance, some trans women retain a certain degree of "butchness", especially in the sack, and so if their girlfriends consider themselves to be straight because of that, then I think that's respectful.

baby and crumble

some trans women retain a certain degree of "butchness", especially in the sack, and so if their girlfriends consider themselves to be straight because of that, then I think that's respectful

Really? I could be considered a butch lesbian, and if my gf thought she was straight because of that i'd have a fit!

deirdre_dub

zoegh wrote: »

Really? I could be considered a butch lesbian, and if my gf thought she was straight because of that i'd have a fit!

Good for you!

You are extrapolating my experience to yours. Of course you would have a problem with someone calling themself straight because of your butchness! "Straight" implies that she has a relationship with something male, and you do not in any way identify as male. Unfortunately, to an extent, I do, and I will have to, on some level, for the rest of my life.

If a girlfriend were to turn around to me and tell me that they see themselves as straight, I would certainly want to know why. If it was because they don't accept my gender identity, then that would be a deal-breaker. If it was because of some residual masculinity in me, then it becomes my problem. I can argue the point with them, or I can decide to accept that element of masculinity, or I can work to get rid of that element of masculinity.

"Straight" and "Gay / Lesbian" are labels that are consequences of the labels "male" and "female". Those latter two labels are quite grey when it comes to dealing with trans people which, in turn, makes the "Straight" and "Gay / Lesbian" labels grey too.

Of course, what I've said above is my own experience and opinion. Different trans people have different needs, experiences and opinions. It's all part of the wonderful diversity and greyness of life.

deirdre_dub

deirdre_dub wrote: »

If it was because of some residual masculinity in me, then it becomes my problem. I can argue the point with them, or I can decide to accept that element of masculinity, or I can work to get rid of that element of masculinity.

Here's the thing. If I expect her to accept the labels I use to describe myself and my experiences, then I need to be able to accept the labels she uses to describe herself and her experiences. If she uses the label "straight" because of her experience of some degree or other of masculinity in me in the sack, then that is her experience!

baby and crumble

Hmmm...

I'm still not sold, but I do accept some of your points.

deirdre_dub

zoegh wrote: »

I'm still not sold

I wasn't actually trying to sell you something - I was trying to describe what trans is like, and how that would affect the situation under discussion from my point of view as a trans person.

baby and crumble

I know, i didn't mean it like that. Sorry.

Links234

deirdre_dub wrote: »

If she uses the label "straight" because of her experience of some degree or other of masculinity in me in the sack, then that is her experience!

I don't really think that a woman would consider herself straight because of a degree of masculinity in a transwoman partner, but I think that people can hold onto their identity through a relationship and it would be more like that. take a woman who enters a relationship with a man who then comes out and transitions, and they stay in that relationship because they still love each other, but she might still identify as straight.

like this situation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHowP_dBoCc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZQ3VhgZQH8