Hellenic crisis vs Lisbon Treaty

Via

The Lisbon Treaty took over Europe in December 2009.

The Greek crisis hit the news in January 2010.


Is anyone willing to embarrass themselves and say that this is a coincidence?

I raise the point because, despite the blatant link between the two, I have heard absolutely no-one mention the Lisbon Treaty in the same context as the Hellenic debt crisis.

Scofflaw

Via wrote: »

The Lisbon Treaty took over Europe in December 2009.

The Greek crisis hit the news in January 2010.


Is anyone willing to embarrass themselves and say that this is a coincidence?

I raise the point because, despite the blatant link between the two, I have heard absolutely no-one mention the Lisbon Treaty in the same context as the Hellenic debt crisis.

Perhaps you should draw the most obvious conclusion from that.

amused,
Scofflaw

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the lisbon treaty is actually a secret blue print for a time travelling machine which the american republicans used to travel back in time and convince the greeks to screw up their economy.

Via

Sir Digby,

as valid as that point is, lets consider the facts: The Lisbon Treaty and the Greek crash happened within a month of eachother.

Via

Via wrote: »

Sir Digby,

as valid as that point is, lets consider the facts: The Lisbon Treaty and the Greek crash happened within a month of eachother.

And what of it?

derfderf

Maybe the greeks had a big party that cost 120billion to celebrate lisbon?

Scofflaw

Via wrote: »

Sir Digby,

as valid as that point is, lets consider the facts: The Lisbon Treaty and the Greek crash happened within a month of eachother.

Tell you what - you lay out how the entire Greek economy could have crashed in one month with no pre-existing problems (since they would predate Lisbon), and then show how Lisbon could have caused that. Otherwise, frankly, this thread fails the most minimal of sense tests that would qualify it for CT.

Admittedly, it's almost impossible that it won't even after such an attempt, but a sufficiency of rope is a human right.

moderately,
Scofflaw

derfderf

Scofflaw wrote: »

Tell you what - you lay out how the entire Greek economy could have crashed in one month with no pre-existing problems (since they would predate Lisbon), and then show how Lisbon could have caused that. Otherwise, frankly, this thread fails the most minimal of sense tests that would qualify it for CT.

Admittedly, it's almost impossible that it won't even after such an attempt, but a sufficiency of rope is a human right.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Permission to say IBTL?

marco_polo

derfderf wrote: »

Permission to say IBTL?

Not you too.

I Blame the Treaty of Lisbon

Einhard

Via wrote: »

Sir Digby,

as valid as that point is, lets consider the facts: The Lisbon Treaty and the Greek crash happened within a month of eachother.

Every summer when the weather gets warm, the sales of ice cream increase, and so do the rates of drowning. Therefore, ice cream cause drowning.

This is a logical fallacy and so is your thesis OP. Post hoc ergo propter hoc and all that.

K-9

marco_polo wrote: »

Not you too.

I Blame the Treaty of Lisbon

I may have to borrow that one at some stage, I'll copyright it though!

ei.sdraob

Deleted User wrote: »

And what of it?

Santa Claus caused Greek problems

thebman

When has politics ever worked that fast previously?

It must have been in their Outlook calender planned in advance.

December - Get Lisbon Treaty Passed
January - Bankrupt Greece making up nonsense about them forging accounts thereby screwing over the economy of whatever country the person who owns this outlook calender is from.

Via

So, we have an answer.

All of you are willing to embarrass yourselves.

I am Greek and just before the Lisbon Treaty passed, I was probably one of the most informed people on the text, not least because, unlike almost all Yes voters, I actually read it.

To the argument that "the crash couldnt have been caused in so short a time", many are placing the blame on the new PASOK government, which has only been in power since October.

Quote, Wikipedia
" In the first weeks of 2010, there was renewed anxiety about excessive national debt. The CEE Council has argued that the predicament some mainland EU countries find themselves in today is the result of a combination of factors, including over-expansion of the eurozone, and a combination of monetarist policy, tax evasion, [25] pursued by local policy makers and EU central bankers.[26]

The Lisbon Treaty is, by territory, the most mindblowingly powerful document that has, possibly ever, been passed. Having seen its clauses, I would actually conclude that, yes, there is every possibility that the Lisbon Treaty caused the Hellenic crash.

Its almost too simple.

The Treaty on refounding Europes politics and economy comes into force in December.

"Europes" only Socialist government is embroiled in the only Greek economical "crash" in living memory, just 8 years after joining the Euro (which completely screwed up the Greek economy), One Month Later.

If Im wrong, then answer this question:

Why Now?

Scofflaw

Via wrote:

Its almost too simple.

There's no "almost" about it.

Via wrote:

I am Greek and just before the Lisbon Treaty passed, I was probably one of the most informed people on the text, not least because, unlike almost all Yes voters, I actually read it.

Congratulations - luckily, you've found your way to somewhere where nearly all the Yes people you'll find also read it - and in some cases digested, summarised it, and turned it into a searchable online version too.

amused,
Scofflaw

tolosenc

Via wrote: »

"Europes" only Socialist government is embroiled in the only Greek economical "crash" in living memory

Europe's only country without a fundamental understanding of basic budgeting, what goes out must have first come in...

Why now?

Maybe it has something to do with PASOK, who essentially stated that they were going to keep on spending regardless of income. When a bank has a debtor that openly professes to planning to live solely off loans, and take other loans to pay for those loans, and other loans to pay for those...

Lisbon Treaty came in to effect in December, then the Greek economy (finally) collapsed, and merely that these 2 events occured 1 month apart, they are mutually intrinsically linked?

Answer me this: Did Thierry Henry's handball cause the Lisbon Treaty?

Via wrote: »

I am Greek and just before the Lisbon Treaty passed, I was probably one of the most informed people on the text, not least because, unlike almost all Yes voters, I actually read it.

Oh, and FYP :P

thebman

tolosenc wrote: »

Answer me this: Did Thierry Henry's handball cause the Lisbon Treaty?

Your doing it wrong... If you ask Irish no voters they will saw the Lisbon treaty caused the handball :P

Its not just that the two events are arbitrarily linked, its that the Lisbon treaty has always caused some other negative event that it is in no way related to.

Thats how their silly little game works.

Traumadoc

Would we be better governed by a european union based government , perhaps in the future a federal based united states of Europe would avoid the debacle here and in Greece.
Lisbon is a step towards a federal Europe, but are we ready to give up the nation state?

RandomName2

Via wrote: »

So, we have an answer.

All of you are willing to embarrass yourselves.

I am Greek and just before the Lisbon Treaty passed, I was probably one of the most informed people on the text, not least because, unlike almost all Yes voters, I actually read it.

To the argument that "the crash couldnt have been caused in so short a time", many are placing the blame on the new PASOK government, which has only been in power since October.

Quote, Wikipedia
" In the first weeks of 2010, there was renewed anxiety about excessive national debt. The CEE Council has argued that the predicament some mainland EU countries find themselves in today is the result of a combination of factors, including over-expansion of the eurozone, and a combination of monetarist policy, tax evasion, [25] pursued by local policy makers and EU central bankers.[26]

The Lisbon Treaty is, by territory, the most mindblowingly powerful document that has, possibly ever, been passed. Having seen its clauses, I would actually conclude that, yes, there is every possibility that the Lisbon Treaty caused the Hellenic crash.

Its almost too simple.

The Treaty on refounding Europes politics and economy comes into force in December.

"Europes" only Socialist government is embroiled in the only Greek economical "crash" in living memory, just 8 years after joining the Euro (which completely screwed up the Greek economy), One Month Later.

If Im wrong, then answer this question:

Why Now?

The Lisbon Treaty didn't cause the economic crash in Greece.

Nor did it cause Bertie Ahern to resign, but the timings of both might have been predicated to some degree on the Treaty. The crash has been brewing for a while, but it is more than conceivable that the full extent of the maelstrom that was about to hit Greece was purposefully put off by her politicians (although by no means just in relation to the ratification of the EU Treaty).

The crash in Greece was, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you view it) based on well - ropey fiscal policy.

It was, of course, also linked to the general global downturn. And, in two ways: due to both the economic 'knock-on' effect, and due to the fact that both were generated (to varying degrees) by a shared zeitgeist (that can simplistically be described as a philosophy which believed that economics worked like a simple merry-go-round, the harder you spent the faster you receive money). The economic world doesn't, in reality, work within the limits of Newton's Second Law of Motion however.

Back to your thing about Lisbon though - although poor individual state performance in the EU threatens the idyll of 'oh you just have to be in the EU to have loads of monayy' and the project of moving forward together in mutual progressiveness (which will subsequently be referred to with the term forwardism) : the basic tenet of Lisbon was to whittle away national sovereignty and the economic crisis gives ample opportunity for followers of forwardism to argue that granting greater power and wider political mandates to the architects of such fiscal disaster is a good idea.

_Nuno_

Via wrote: »

"Europes" only Socialist government is embroiled in the only Greek economical "crash" in living memory, just 8 years after joining the Euro (which completely screwed up the Greek economy), One Month Later.
?

Greece's not the only Socialist government in Europe. Spain and Portugal also have Socialist governments and have had them for the most of the last two/three decades. Greece had the socialists in the government 21 out of the last 30 years, Spain 22 out of the last 28, Portugal 13 out of the last 15.

In my opinion, the results speak for themselves.

Einhard

Via wrote: »

All of you are willing to embarrass yourselves....

I was probably one of the most informed people on the text, not least because, unlike almost all Yes voters, I actually read it....

Quote, Wikipedia

You read, digested, and became an authority on the Lisbon Treaty, and yet you quote from Wikipedia to support your thesis?

BetterLisbon

Funny how when our recession was linked to Lisbon by the government and various secretly funded lobby groups...........

BetterLisbon

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's no "almost" about it.



Congratulations - luckily, you've found your way to somewhere where nearly all the Yes people you'll find also read it - and in some cases digested, summarised it, and turned it into a searchable online version too.

amused,
Scofflaw

Well i digested it and summarised what i saw as wrong with it including references to the treaty text yet the amount of times i was called a liar by peopel who didnt even look at my leaflets.

BetterLisbon

Traumadoc wrote: »

Would we be better governed by a european union based government , perhaps in the future a federal based united states of Europe would avoid the debacle here and in Greece.
Lisbon is a step towards a federal Europe, but are we ready to give up the nation state?

Well whats left of the nation state? Majority rules on almost all policy areas so were are most of the way to a federation. We have vetoes on the initiation of foreign policy and all aspects of defence policy as well as some economic policies but then again so do the canadian provinces.

Corsendonk

Interesting tread, gave me a laugh at least. Am I the only one that thinks Greece went belly up because the previous govenment overspent and lied to the European Central Bank about the level of debt on a major white lie scale. Hence the reason now the EU wants to review national budgets and impose its own statistics collecting people on member states. You can hardly blame them as the reputation of the Euro relies on it.

But hey all those xfiles fans might have a deeper theory that they read on the UKIP website.

Valmont

Is there a joke here I'm missing? Am I on The Onion?