Keep It Underground - Music Board of Ireland

Waking-Dreams

Yeah, yeah, I'm back.

I didn't want to pull the record deal thread off-topic but I thought it would be worth having a stimulating discussion about the following short documentary that was posted in that thread.

Part One:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoMAgpJABK0

Part Two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLjAETnKBiA

Have a watch (it's about 12 minutes) and post your thoughts. I'll add my own contribution in a while as I don't want to prematurely influence the discussion so I'll let a few posters go first.

maccored

i was watching a bit of that last night and the bands raise valid points. I do not though, have any idea if grants etc will actually help anyone as the need and the urge to do something is a strong enough driver if you ask me. plus, art being art and something not everyone understands (especially music) you'd wonder if the money would go to the bands that talked the talk more than walked the walk. What would happened the amazingly creative bands the people giving out the cash just didnt get?

I suppose then it would depend exactly on who would be in charge of granting grants (if there were such things) for musicians and the success would depend on the understanding those people had of music as an artform rather than music as a fashion.

To a degree I still think effort should be made to change the perception of music in the mind of the general public. If people treated painted art or sculpture like they do music, it'd be a pretty **** art scene as it would all be determined by how much money the artist was worth (maybe it is already, I dont know), or how trendy they looked.

Fandango

Thats the point, if there was a grant structure, which i think there should be, it should be made sure that the grants go to bands/musicians/artists willing to work hard at it. At the moment id say all hard working bands looking to make a career from music know they have to look outside Ireland to have a chance.

Plus, an amazing painter can be seen by everyone as an amazing painter whether your an art fan or not. Music as maccored says is something that isnt so easy to be seen as great. An amazing metal band may be seen as terrible by a pop fan and visa versa so alot harder to know who deserves the grants etc.

I personally think there is some amazing talent in Ireland which is being wasted by the music scene, or lack of here but again i agree with Maccored that i dont know if grants would help a huge amount. Dont think it should be a cash kinda grant but instead something like studio time in a big studio for the right bands, but of course that brings up the question of who are the right bands.

MilanPan!c

There's NOTHING I'd like more than to somehow "make it" in Ireland (all the family and friends, etc.) but the vast majority of interest comes from the UK.

I think the local Dublin scene is good, but as everyone is looking outside of Dublin (i.e. to the UK/Europe/US) it's pretty neglected.

So sad really.

drumdrum

That video is interesting, but some of it is a bit bull**** IMO.
"musicians as important as doctors in society"........ I dont know about that!

QUOTE:
"An amazing metal band may be seen as terrible by a pop fan and visa versa so alot harder to know who deserves the grants etc."
The same goes for art-art though. Ive been to a few exhibitions of friends in my time, and Ive seen some ****e and some real talent!! All art is subjective, so distributing grants must have some sort of filtration system applied to it to ensure that promising artists are supported rather than the guy who just threw a bucket of paint at some roadkill and called it art!!! though I wouldnt be surprised if he sold it to some cook for thousands!!!

The problem as I see it, is that the popular music scene in Ireland (mainly indie, which was represented by those bands there) has an outlet via radio for that GENRE of music, although they are not necessarily Irish artists. As a result, these upcoming Irish artists will be compared to the riff-raff from the UK and US on the radio where there is more support, more opportunity and a higher standard due to fiercer competition in the other markets. As a result, can our boys really stand up to them?

Artistically, absolutely!!!
Marketing and Production-wise.....its not really a fair playing field. Coming from a larger market to a smaller one is obviously a huge advantage. Going the other way is trickier without support, which is evidently not existant in Ireland.

Popular music artists in Ireland getting grants could open the doors to any oul band that isnt very good to apply for funding and could open the doors to scammers taking advantage of this. Sure the same could be done for art grants, but at least with some art grants the artists background (as far as Im aware) is taking into account when deciding whether or not to give the grant.
Yeah its a **** system no doubt, but I dont think its likely to change any day soon.....

Waking-Dreams

The video does include some cliched attitudes, but that's not the filmmaker's fault, rather what the bands are saying.

What stood out to me was the rehearsal room situation. The biggest problem I see in the Irish music scene is that there aren't a great number of band rehearsal rooms on offer. Having proper facilities available to young musicians is as vital as providing football clubs to young footballers. In essence, they all need somewhere to go where they can play and most importantly, somewhere where they can socialise in a peer group enviornment, meet and interact with others who have similar interests.

I'm not pointing the finger at the businessmen who run the rehearsal rooms and expecting them to dip into their pockets and improve their facilities overnight because in many cases the overheads are just so expensive (rent for a commercial premises, ESB, staff wages, insurance, phone/internet, equipment replacements) that they can probably just about afford to get by and provide a service to begin with.

And, when you think about it, who damages the equipment in the first place? The musicians themselves. It's a circular problem where the studio doesn't want to kit out the place with top-notch gear because it will be abused and where an element of the musicians abuse the lesser grade gear because they devalue it, due to it not being their own and because it looks like it has been around the block a number of times. I mean, who steals cymbal felts off the drum kits that the studio has to resort to putting duct tape on the stands? And these same people probably nod their heads in agreement when others complain about the quality of band rehearsal rooms. The mind boggles.

I spoke to the guys in one well-known Dublin city studio a good few years ago when I was still going there, and they said there wasn't much money to be made in running a rehearsal space, or not as much as people would like to think. A while back I drew up a business plan of my own to see if I could set up a facility where I live for local bands but I did the math and quickly discovered it would require a lot of capital to get off the ground. Plus, it's a very risky endeavour. You would need some decent funding at least for security. Bands these days are expected to pay around €60-€75 for a full back line, but would rather pay €35-€50 instead if they had a choice. Sadly, unless a studio is booked up all of the time, running at near full capacity, that kind of business model just wouldn't make economic sense.

Fun with numbers:

Say a rehearsal studio has 6 rooms, and is open 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, with four 3-hour slots in their daily schedule. Each 3-hour session works out at €50 for a full backline.

That means that if the studio is at maximum capacity; 24 bands play in 6 rooms in a one day period, the studio makes a gross profit of €1,200 per day. That's only a potential so it's probably not that busy in most places. Even if the studio was able to generate a maximum total of €8,400 per week, it's theoretically possible but probably never happens save for once in a blue moon.

One can only speculate how much business a rehearsal room brings in, but I'll hazard a guess and say it's only half of that amount; €4,200 per week, where the studio sees 12 bands per day (Saturdays and Sundays could be busier days but these even out on the quiet weeknights).

So, with €4,200 per week, the studio has to deduct the following: rent for a commercial premises, ESB, staff wages, insurance, phone/internet, and then any equipment replacements.

Some commercial properties with a lot of sq. ft space can be as high as €2,000 per week, then say a 3-man staff could be between €1,200-€1,500. Which leaves just €1,000 to cover all the other weekly bills, whatever they may be. It's doable, but that's counting on getting 12 bands per day, or 84 per week.

However, if the government, or arts council allocated money each year for band facilities, the way the give grants to certain entrepreneurs, we could have something that would provide bands with decent rooms, decent gear that gets replaced more often, and not for mad money.

Why hasn't this happened already? Some departments treat their budgets like it was their own money.

They should look at it as not giving out money to get something back (even though taxes are being paid by band rooms), but providing a social service to the larger community by giving bands much better facilities to express themselves. Who knows, maybe they won't get caught up in anti-social behaviour if they have these better options, and not a smelly dingy hole where they can barely hear themselves, never mind the drummer on the other side of the room. You would tire of that after a while.

It's like, when many years ago in Ireland, if you didn't play soccer, GAA, or rugby, you had to go elsewhere. That seems to have changed. Maybe musicians should write/email to their local politicians, and emphasise that providing young bands with decent facilities gives them a better reason to keep playing music; a positive motivating factor in steering them clear of idle activities such as anti-social behaviour. It's far fetched but that's how politicians think. Anti-social behaviour is anathema to them, so use it as often as you can. Explain how bands get disillusioned with trying to continue playing in such a crap environment and can drop out, possibly getting involved in other things, which can lead to worse activities for society. I mean, they apply that logic for providing sports facilities for young people, and music is just as strong a hobby.

I think it's a bit unrealistic for bands to expect to get private grants just for them, so they can go record an album like one lad in the video said:

"If somebody is going to New York, to record an album who don't have a record deal, they should be able to get grants. Scientists get a grant to buy test tubes, it's the same thing. They don't see that art or a musician is just as important as being a doctor."

...but money could be allocated for rehearsal spaces at least which benefits everyone, or as many as possible, and allows bands to enjoy playing music together in the first place. How many of us have slummed it out in facilities that were manky but had no real alternative? If you play drums and don't have a garage or patient neighbours for that matter your options are limited.

I have to say, the rehearsal spaces in Vancouver, Canada were far superior and were the same price. Cleaner rooms, better gear, drum kits having the heads replaced more often than twice a year. They even give you cymbals too.

I think if a rehearsal room was offering better equipment, it could attract more punters. Drum kits with a rack and an extra tom maybe; a P.A. with not just two tops, but two bottom sub-woofers as well so the vocalist isn't cranking the amp just so he can be heard over the guitarist.

musiccollab

There is a certain naivety to the industry which Irish musicians just dont get. All bands ambitions are to get signed, tour the world and make millions but very few bands are willing to understand the realities of the industry they are getting themselves involved in. In the modern music industry you have to do everything yourself if you are going to get noticed and this includes paying for your practice rooms, your own studio time, recording time, mastering, pr, reproduction, printing etc. If you do all of this and create a stir then you will get noticed. if you are talented enough then it will go further.

Its important to note that yes there are grants available to artist but not every artist gets a grant, just like not every athlete gets there grants only the best do.Touring bursaries are definitely available and they are are funded in grant form by the arts council. Most of this however gets taken up by the bigger irish bands who can actually promote Irish music at the international stage, so there is some form of comeback. There are also facilities for recording but the main problem is that musicians are only recognized as individuals when applying rather than as a group or band, so basically this is taken up by the classical genres.

This is a business after all and bands have to start treating it like one, (rate than mopping around feeling sorry for ourselves saying that nobody supports me so im not gonna make it), just like the best artists. The main problem with music in Ireland is the fact that it has to be exportable in order for the industry to make any sort of money off it and to this regard there is no music industry per say. There are no major record lables in ireland who have the authority to really sign anyone on their own backs, everything goes through london. Noticably, any bands over the last few year who have made any impact, have had sounds which are generally imitiations of foreign sounds. This however has always been the case. The beatles for example made their initial breaks playing covers and writing formulaic songs to specific set templates before breaking loose and showing their true talent.

Personally i feel the money should go into an organization which will develop irish music in the guise of a record label type support structure, with an open door policy (rather than the clicky nature of places like the FMC), where new talent is brought in to receive support and advice from top industry professionals . Only then when irish musicians are creating a product that is sellable can the industry progress. Its about getting onto the first step and if somewhere can provided this then it can only be good for everyone.

HeartShake

The term "providing" football clubs is used above.

I'd like to point out that the football and GAA clubs around the country are run by a massive amount of selfless volunteers and are funded by sponsorship, fundraising and subs.

Only in the small amount of cases are capital grants available.

Why don't more bands club together to do these things? 5 bands getting a shed soundproofed and backlined? Or making a space into a venue?

The comparison that is made with sport is actually more harmful to music than anything.

I say this as someone with a first hand knowledge of both and the difference is; a GAA club receiving money for development NEVER spends it on its output i.e Senior GAA.

They spend it on making a facility for the local community better eg all weather pitches.

To give grants to bands to go to New York and record? No thanks. I'd rather not subsidise a piss-up.

Another point is that FMC is "clicky". You sir, are miles wide of the mark. We emailed them in April and saw them two weeks ago. They were massively helpful, friendly and open.

Their numbers are freely available and you can ring and organise a consultation.

The video, and the greater attitude that I've found is winning in Ireland today and that is; musicians want everything done for them.

They want promoters to get them fans, they want MySpace and Facebook to do their networking and they want the Irish Government to fund the whole thing.

Being in a band has always been about passion, drive and desire. And only when you realise that, can you even start to think about success.

musiccollab

So you have met them once. congratulations, ive dealt with them for 6 or 7 years and they are really nice people and work hard at their jobs. But im not going to get into an argument over the merits or non merits of the fmc. The whole industry in ireland is clicky all i was saying that we need something more impartial.

"The video, and the greater attitude that I've found is winning in Ireland today and that is; musicians want everything done for them.

They want promoters to get them fans, they want MySpace and Facebook to do their networking and they want the Irish Government to fund the whole thing.

Being in a band has always been about passion, drive and desire. And only when you realise that, can you even start to think about success. "

I fully agree with these sentiments.

musiccollab

Im not going to get into an argument of the merits or non merits of the fmc, that is not afterall what this thread is about. But as someone who has dealt with them consistantly over the last number of years (being involved in the music industry for the last 7) i think i know a little bit about it. I fully accept your opinion and wont say anymore about it.

In regards to the rest of your post i agree fully with pretty much everything you have said.

HeartShake

I think you're absolutely right on the whole, the industry is cliquey and that's half the reason most of those bands will never get heard.

I just felt that from my own dealings with FMC, you were picking the wrong target.

But, if you have had a different experience of them and, given that my own dealings are limited, I respect that.

Waking-Dreams

HeartShake wrote: »

The term "providing" football clubs is used above.

I'd like to point out that the football and GAA clubs around the country are run by a massive amount of selfless volunteers and are funded by sponsorship, fundraising and subs.

Only in the small amount of cases are capital grants available.

Why don't more bands club together to do these things? 5 bands getting a shed soundproofed and backlined? Or making a space into a venue?

The comparison that is made with sport is actually more harmful to music than anything.

I say this as someone with a first hand knowledge of both and the difference is; a GAA club receiving money for development NEVER spends it on its output i.e. Senior GAA.

They spend it on making a facility for the local community better eg all weather pitches.

And that's what I was suggesting; forget about the notion of giving out money to certain bands to let them go record an album or organise a gig (that might make a profit – and in the case of recording an album, bands seem to be expected to fund that venture themselves these days, even by some labels), but just help provide decent facilities that they can play music to begin with.

I would be opposed to just throwing money at bands themselves (because this discriminates against non-mainstream bands*), but to allocate funding for facilities that all bands could avail of. Granted, this would probably be given to individuals who are effectively private business people, but the pressure would be on them to make good with the funding and provide a sterling service for a great price that all bands could afford.

And as well as that, a rehearsal room caters for all styles of music, whereas if a death metal band tried to get a grant they'd be laughed out of the room.

And to the bands who happen to be lucky enough to have their own kitted-out room, you might be thinking, “What about us?” However, you are in a privileged position of having your own place. Don't lose sight of the important point, which is allowing young people to be able to play music with some level of enjoyment, not slumming it out in worn-down practice space because they have nowhere else to go.

Also, you asked: Why don't more bands club together to do these things? 5 bands getting a shed soundproofed and backlined? Or making a space into a venue?

For the same reason that you mentioned in your post regarding the winning attitude among bands; they want other people to do it for them. But typically, alot of young bands are very unorganised or not financially secure (teenagers or working rock-bottom jobs) to be able to pull off such a move. Sure, they can barely scrape enough money to record a decent demo. I remember a studio owner publicly asking how much bands would be willing to pay for an album and the average amount was €2,500-€3,000. For a full professional studio album they expected. Usually beer money can take priority.

Team sports and fundraising helps the team, but with bands, as much as there can be cooperation in many cases, there's always an underlying competitive element. Bands all want to be the most favourite in the scene and can get jealous of the successes of many other groups in close proximity, if it leaves them in the shadows. It's why bands never begrudge a popular band on the other side of the world but might feel a twinge of envy when the band from their town gets better audiences than they do.

And what happens if gear is stolen/vandalised? It's risky business, hence why only the very best of friends who are in bands tend to bunch together (plus, they usually live nearby one another).

---

* With non-mainstream bands, the question you have to ask yourself is, can you make money? Your music has to make enough money for the people you're working with - simple as that. And, often you need to prove that it'll do that by making money... on your own first.