20gauge

newby.204

Anyone here shoot 20gauge or 16gauge?,what shotgun do you have?, how do you find it against 12gauge? whats the cost of shells like??

newby.204

newby.204 wrote: »

Anyone here shoot 20gauge,what shotgun do you have?, how do you find it against 12gauge? whats the cost of shells like??

Have a 20, Yildiz, depends on the game really. Use the 20 for Duck and other waterfowl ,The range is better I find anyway. The cost of shells is fairly expensive compared to the 12. €50 FOR 12 Guage and €75 for 20's in my local. The 20 bore is a lovely light gun though so it suits for long walks.

newby.204

how many shells are you gettin for €75

newby.204

newby.204 wrote: »

how many shells are you gettin for €75

250

Grizzly 45

Have a Savage combo 22 rf mag and 20GA combo.
Lighter gun for the ladies or for men of smaller statue.But I find it doesnt do anything better or worse than a 12 GA within its limits.

doubletrigger

i just wanted to get a few opinions.i am a 17 year old girl i just started shooting this year. i am currently using my dads old 12 bore baikal(SS).i mite be buying my own gun this year,its been recommended for me to get a 20 bore. i was just wondering does a 20 bore have a shorter range and ''less power'' or what exactly the differences between the two is..i hunt foxes with hounds so shot distance is kinda important.. i dont have any problems with the 12g expect its kinda awkward to mount to my shoulder though i think its the stock causing the problem

pedroeibar1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Have a Savage combo 22 rf mag and 20GA combo.
Lighter gun for the ladies or for men of smaller statue.But I find it doesnt do anything better or worse than a 12 GA within its limits.

Now now Griz!
That’s a bit below the belt. I’m not that small and I love my 20b for rough shooting - some of my most memorable shots have been with it.:P.

Doubletrigger – proper gunfit is the most important issue. If any gun does not fit you properly, it will not shoot where you think it is pointing and you will be wasting your time and grow frustrated.

The 12 b is arguably the best / most efficient shotgun; however, the 20b is lighter - usually by about eight to ten ounces and that DOES make a difference in mounting, in swing & follow-through and especially when carrying it in the field all day. However, because it is lighter it does not absorb recoil as well as a heavier 12b, so if you are shooting high volumes e.g. clays, it will bruise you. The 20b’s have now obtained a certain snob value, are scarcer and thus slightly more expensive to buy and shoot.

Range and pattern are dependent on the weight (size) of the shot, the amount of power in the cartridge and the barrell's choke size. Larger shot will be harder hitting and shot velocity fall off more slowly, but this is marginal at best when looking at size 4 shot and below at yardages of 35 yards or less. Above 40 yards you have no business trying to shoot a fox with a shotgun, nor should you use cartridges above size 4 as the shot would not have the kinetic energy for a clean kill.

Forget all the technical stuff and just concentrate on hitting a moving target with a gun that fits you properly and does not drag your arms from their sockets after a day in the field.
Rs
P.

FISMA

doubleTrigger,
Here's a not so quick lesson.

Bore or gauge describes diameter of the tube of the barrel. The smaller the number the bigger the barrel. Pretend you have a perfectly round ball of lead that just slid down the barrel of a 12ga. That ball would weigh 1/12 of a pound.

Like wise, a ball of lead that "just" slides down a 20 ga barrel would weigh 1/20lb.

In the 12 ga there is more lead shot in a shell which helps to increase the probability of a hit and/or kill.

Also, 12ga ammo is more readily available and cheaper than 20ga.

Some 12ga can also take a variety of loads and sizes of shotshells: 2 3/4, 3", 3 1/2", and magnum. Thus, they are more versatile. Before you buy any firearm, price the ammo to ensure you can stomach the cost.

One of the most important factors in ensuring a long range kill shot is the muzzle velocity - the speed with which the shot leaves the barrel. MV is mostly dependent on two concepts: powder and length of barrel.

Obviously, the more powder in the shotshell, the more "boom." The powder is the propellant - more powder, more propulsion.

There's lots of other powder factors: shape of the powder, packing, rate of combustion, necking, ... However, that's for another day.

Next little item is Impulse. Impulse is how long a Force is applied. This is where the length of barrels come in and the "big guns" you see - like on battleships.

The shot is sped up while in the barrel. As long as the gasses are expanding, they can apply a force on the shot which continues to speed them up. The longer the barrel, the more time these gasses have to act on the shot. Thus, a longer barrel will give you a greater muzzle velocity.

Once the shot clears the barrel air resistance will act to slow down the shot.

The 20ga will not have the lethal range of the 12ga, however, it will be lethal in the right hands.

Since Dad already has a 12ga, I would recommend you get a 20ga.

The sxs is a bird gun: first barrel is usually choked less than the second. That's because if you miss with the first, the bird is going away and you will want a tighter choke to focus the shot out farther. Also, sxs shotguns usually, have their barrels focused.

In general, I find chokes to be a bit over-rated when at the trap/skeet ranges. A good shooter can break clays no matter what choke. New shooters are lulled into the idea that changing the chokes is the solution when in most cases, it is just inexperience.

Over and under is more versatile, unlike the focus of the sxs, the o/u is just a straight tube, usually choked, and throws the shotgun straight out.

Your best choice, IMHO, is an auto. You can take it out for pheasant, on boats for ducks, to do some trap/skeet, or whatever.

I have become very proficient with the 12ga. But that's because unbeknown to my hunting buddies, I rarely practice with the 12ga - usually a 20ga or a 410.

The problem with the 12ga is that there's so much lead, new shooters are able to develop bad habits and still break targets. By learning on a 20ga, 28ga, or a 410 you will develop good habits, methods, and styles. Then when you pick up a 12ga, you'll destroy targets.

Last lesson of the day is the moment of Inertia. I am sure you understand that the more massive something is, the more difficult it is to move (accelerate).

Now this is straight line motion, but how about rotational? It turns out that if you are rotating, like swinging a gun, not only does mass matter, but how that mass is distributed - like a long heavy barrel.

A longer, heavier barrel will be harder to swing and you will fight to get ahead of the target. Definitely, a handicap is crossing bird shots or skeet.

This is why I love my 26" 20ga, I can throw the gun safely from side to side without any problem.

The principle is like an ice skater - with hands extended, she rotates slowly, when she brings her hands inward, she rotates faster. She rotates faster, because it is easier to spin her - she has decreased her moment of Inertia.

Most people missing clays targets out there are behind the target. Many of them bought a barrel that's way too big and they just cannot swing it gracefully. So don't feel that you need to go with the 28" or 30" barrel to increase maximum range.

One of the most under-rated and overlooked aspects of the shooting sports is fit.

I am just a hunter/recreational shooter. However, others like Mod Sparks are competitive. I bet if you asked him about fit he would not have enough to say on the importance of the subject.

Shoulder the weapon. Are you able to see the bead or the top of the barrel? That is, does the barrel/bead look like it is ramping up? If so, you need shims.

I cannot stress fit enough.

It is sooooooooo important that at your age you develop good habits. Once you get a bit older, you tend to get stuck in your ways.

My advice would be to get an 20ga auto. If you have a price range, please advise and I will be more specific.

Also, get out to the range and the shops and shoulder as many brands, models, and stocks that you can. Eventually, you will pick one up that "just feels right." When this happens, note the stock, is it English, or what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_%28firearm%29

Can you imagine running a marathon in pair of size 14 runners? Surprisingly, many people never adjust their stock and get frustrated when they cannot break targets.

Safe shooting...

Grizzly 45

doubletrigger wrote: »

i just wanted to get a few opinions.i am a 17 year old girl i just started shooting this year. i am currently using my dads old 12 bore baikal(SS).i mite be buying my own gun this year,its been recommended for me to get a 20 bore. i was just wondering does a 20 bore have a shorter range and ''less power'' or what exactly the differences between the two is..i hunt foxes with hounds so shot distance is kinda important.. i dont have any problems with the 12g expect its kinda awkward to mount to my shoulder though i think its the stock causing the problem

Not really, a 20 bore shooting 3in mag loads will do just a good a job as a 12GA It depends on what you want this gun for? The 20,24,28 and if,maybe,possibly the .410 were always considerd "ladies and youths" guns.This wasnt meant in a dispraging way BTW even in Victorian times.It was just out of practicality that they were referred to this.As most women of breeding who went to driven shoots etc,werent really used to humping around big weighty items.So there is no "shame " or "gayness" attached to you using a smaller calibre.There is no point in using a gun that is uncomfortable for you to shoot,either in recoil or fit.
Next problem I find is as you said the stock.Baikal must have a contract to supply AK47 stocks as well.One size fits all..:eek: fine if you are a short armed dwarf!You really need a proper fitting stock on a shotgun,otherwise it is a cod.There are two ways to this problem. Go to a reputable gunsmith ,who actually has a try gun and knows how to take measurements off it ,and can make you a custom stock fitted to you personally[The Saville row method] Or more likely here ,the Dunnes stores method.Go to many gun dealers try and fit many shotguns,until you find one that really fits you well.

Nothing meant on being below the belt Pdobar. My best trick shot was one driven snipe from the hip with a single shot 410,when I was 16.Never been able to repeat that feat.

jimbrowning

whenever my wife shoots, she has no prob with the recoil from my 12g. but she,s tall and slim so cant manage the weight. we tried her with a lighter 20g and she loved it but kicked her like a mule. then tried a s/auto 20g and as it takes some of gases(power) to recycle, she found it grate, even shooting 100 sporting. food for thought!!!

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

doubleTrigger,
Here's a not so quick lesson.

Bore or gauge describes diameter of the tube of the barrel. The smaller the number the bigger the barrel. Pretend you have a perfectly round ball of lead that just slid down the barrel of a 12ga. That ball would weigh 1/12 of a pound.

Like wise, a ball of lead that "just" slides down a 20 ga barrel would weigh 1/20lb.

In the 12 ga there is more lead shot in a shell which helps to increase the probability of a hit and/or kill.

Also, 12ga ammo is more readily available and cheaper than 20ga.

Some 12ga can also take a variety of loads and sizes of shotshells: 2 3/4, 3", 3 1/2", and magnum. Thus, they are more versatile. Before you buy any firearm, price the ammo to ensure you can stomach the cost.

One of the most important factors in ensuring a long range kill shot is the muzzle velocity - the speed with which the shot leaves the barrel. MV is mostly dependent on two concepts: powder and length of barrel.

Obviously, the more powder in the shotshell, the more "boom." The powder is the propellant - more powder, more propulsion.

There's lots of other powder factors: shape of the powder, packing, rate of combustion, necking, ... However, that's for another day.

Next little item is Impulse. Impulse is how long a Force is applied. This is where the length of barrels come in and the "big guns" you see - like on battleships.

The shot is sped up while in the barrel. As long as the gasses are expanding, they can apply a force on the shot which continues to speed them up. The longer the barrel, the more time these gasses have to act on the shot. Thus, a longer barrel will give you a greater muzzle velocity.

Once the shot clears the barrel air resistance will act to slow down the shot.

The 20ga will not have the lethal range of the 12ga, however, it will be lethal in the right hands.

Since Dad already has a 12ga, I would recommend you get a 20ga.

The sxs is a bird gun: first barrel is usually choked less than the second. That's because if you miss with the first, the bird is going away and you will want a tighter choke to focus the shot out farther. Also, sxs shotguns usually, have their barrels focused.

In general, I find chokes to be a bit over-rated when at the trap/skeet ranges. A good shooter can break clays no matter what choke. New shooters are lulled into the idea that changing the chokes is the solution when in most cases, it is just inexperience.

Over and under is more versatile, unlike the focus of the sxs, the o/u is just a straight tube, usually choked, and throws the shotgun straight out.

Your best choice, IMHO, is an auto. You can take it out for pheasant, on boats for ducks, to do some trap/skeet, or whatever.

I have become very proficient with the 12ga. But that's because unbeknown to my hunting buddies, I rarely practice with the 12ga - usually a 20ga or a 410.

The problem with the 12ga is that there's so much lead, new shooters are able to develop bad habits and still break targets. By learning on a 20ga, 28ga, or a 410 you will develop good habits, methods, and styles. Then when you pick up a 12ga, you'll destroy targets.

Last lesson of the day is the moment of Inertia. I am sure you understand that the more massive something is, the more difficult it is to move (accelerate).

Now this is straight line motion, but how about rotational? It turns out that if you are rotating, like swinging a gun, not only does mass matter, but how that mass is distributed - like a long heavy barrel.

A longer, heavier barrel will be harder to swing and you will fight to get ahead of the target. Definitely, a handicap is crossing bird shots or skeet.

This is why I love my 26" 20ga, I can throw the gun safely from side to side without any problem.

The principle is like an ice skater - with hands extended, she rotates slowly, when she brings her hands inward, she rotates faster. She rotates faster, because it is easier to spin her - she has decreased her moment of Inertia.

Most people missing clays targets out there are behind the target. Many of them bought a barrel that's way too big and they just cannot swing it gracefully. So don't feel that you need to go with the 28" or 30" barrel to increase maximum range.

One of the most under-rated and overlooked aspects of the shooting sports is fit.

I am just a hunter/recreational shooter. However, others like Mod Sparks are competitive. I bet if you asked him about fit he would not have enough to say on the importance of the subject.

Shoulder the weapon. Are you able to see the bead or the top of the barrel? That is, does the barrel/bead look like it is ramping up? If so, you need shims.

I cannot stress fit enough.

It is sooooooooo important that at your age you develop good habits. Once you get a bit older, you tend to get stuck in your ways.

My advice would be to get an 20ga auto. If you have a price range, please advise and I will be more specific.

Also, get out to the range and the shops and shoulder as many brands, models, and stocks that you can. Eventually, you will pick one up that "just feels right." When this happens, note the stock, is it English, or what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_%28firearm%29

Can you imagine running a marathon in pair of size 14 runners? Surprisingly, many people never adjust their stock and get frustrated when they cannot break targets.

Safe shooting...

or even a .410
Who ever you are you certainly know your shotguns

FISMA

Praise from Caesar!

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

Praise from Caesar!

Veni Vidi Vici

What does FISMA stand for?

http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SMA/fisma/index.html
??????????????????

FISMA

Newton's Second Law F = ma, usually spoken as F is ma. Hence, FISMA.

:pac:

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

Newton's Second Law F = ma, usually spoken as F is ma. Hence, FISMA.

:pac:

Lord Newtons !

Well the apple must have missed me not to cop that

Although I have done my fair share of vectors

I wish I could change my handle, There are two Tack variants on here

pedroeibar1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not really, a 20 bore shooting 3in mag loads will do just a good a job as a 12GA It depends on what you want this gun for? The 20,24,28 and if,maybe,possibly the .410 were always considerd "ladies and youths" guns.This wasnt meant in a dispraging way BTW even in Victorian times.It was just out of practicality that they were referred to this.As most women of breeding who went to driven shoots etc,werent really used to humping around big weighty items.So there is no "shame " or "gayness" attached to you using a smaller calibre.There is no point in using a gun that is uncomfortable for you to shoot,either in recoil or fit.
Next problem I find is as you said the stock.Baikal must have a contract to supply AK47 stocks as well.One size fits all..:eek: fine if you are a short armed dwarf!You really need a proper fitting stock on a shotgun,otherwise it is a cod.There are two ways to this problem. Go to a reputable gunsmith ,who actually has a try gun and knows how to take measurements off it ,and can make you a custom stock fitted to you personally[The Saville row method] Or more likely here ,the Dunnes stores method.Go to many gun dealers try and fit many shotguns,until you find one that really fits you well.

Nothing meant on being below the belt Pdobar. My best trick shot was one driven snipe from the hip with a single shot 410,when I was 16.Never been able to repeat that feat.

Well done Griz, that was a feat to remember.:) I once saw the b-in-law astride a barbed wire fence ram a cartridge into his 12g and bring down a woodcock from the hip; he was more surprised than the cock! (And – eventually - took it quite well that we made him buy the drink all night.) My best was ...well, that is a long story, not as good as yours & not for here.
I agree with most of the stuff you said, Griz, except Victorian ladies did not shoot, they joined the guns for lunch and sat with them at the pegs until afternoon tea, after which they retired to rest before dressing for dinner. Granted, there were a few exceptions, but I’d contend that it was into the Edwardian era before the ladies shot. (In Vicky’s time ladies were considered too delicate to be exposed to too many loud noises.)
A try gun? Is there really a dealer using one here?
The OP wanted some quick advice, but in FISMA’s lecture there are far too many sweeping statements and hazy stuff for my liking. I’ll let Tack and he mutually congratulate each other. Too bored to get into a contest.
Rs
P.

ssl

The last .410's I saw were silenced pumps in tannyoky's Newry. The lads said they sold some to Croke Park for zapping pigeons, less noise reverberating around the stadium. Wouldn't mind a craic at that!

Sika98k

As usual the thread descends into unrelated drivel.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Well done Griz, that was a feat to remember.:) I once saw the b-in-law astride a barbed wire fence ram a cartridge into his 12g and bring down a woodcock from the hip; he was more surprised than the cock! (And – eventually - took it quite well that we made him buy the drink all night.) My best was ...well, that is a long story, not as good as yours & not for here.
I agree with most of the stuff you said, Griz, except Victorian ladies did not shoot, they joined the guns for lunch and sat with them at the pegs until afternoon tea, after which they retired to rest before dressing for dinner. Granted, there were a few exceptions, but I’d contend that it was into the Edwardian era before the ladies shot. (In Vicky’s time ladies were considered too delicate to be exposed to too many loud noises.)
A try gun? Is there really a dealer using one here?
The OP wanted some quick advice, but in FISMA’s lecture there are far too many sweeping statements and hazy stuff for my liking. I’ll let Tack and he mutually congratulate each other. Too bored to get into a contest.
Rs
P.

All free advice is free for a reason

pedroeibar1

Sika98k wrote: »

As usual the thread descends into unrelated drivel.

'Specially for you, Sika.

The poster asked about hunting foxes with hounds and then shooting them. In that type of shooting pattern is far more important i.e. shot density within the pattern. Actually, for the quarry in question I contend that bore/gauge is not relevant, given the choice/variety of cartridges available. Despite Fisma’s battleship guns comparison, barrel length for shooting below 40 yards is irrelevant (for Velocity) because the V differences are so small as to be negligible. Which is why Churchill was able to promote his 25inch barrel with such success.

For starters, on the ballistics side, taking for example Eley’s standard no. 6 cartridge, (because I have the figs for it;)) producing an observed velocity of 1070 feet per second, the striking velocity in metres per second at 30 meters is 231 and at 40 metres it is 197. That is less than a 15% difference which SEEMS insubstantial BUT the striking energy (measured in foot pounds) of the same cartridge at the same distances is 2.03 and 1.44, a difference of almost 30%. However, using the No.4 cartridge (the one I advocated as a minimum for fox) the striking energy figures drop by less than 25% (same distances as before, 3.54 and 2.66 foot pounds respectively, the latter of which at the outer end of the max range I stated.) At 2.66 it is almost double the required striking energy of 1.5 pounds per pellet.

For a fox, I suggest that at least 6 pellets (some of which must hit a ‘vital’) each with a striking energy of 1.5 foot-pounds are necessary for a humane kill. Beyond 40 metres, using about 1000fps the amount of lead on the target starts at about two metres and I would not like to be shooting over dogs in close proximity to a fox in those circumstances and certainly would not recommend it to a beginner.

As said above by others bore/gauge/gun are not critical, gun fit is what counts because that is what is most important in aim and thus delivering the load to where it counts.
Rs
P.

Grizzly 45

I agree with most of the stuff you said, Griz, except Victorian ladies did not shoot, they joined the guns for lunch and sat with them at the pegs until afternoon tea, after which they retired to rest before dressing for dinner. Granted, there were a few exceptions, but I’d contend that it was into the Edwardian era before the ladies shot. (In Vicky’s time ladies were considered too delicate to be exposed to too many loud noises.)
A try gun? Is there really a dealer using one here?

.

You are quite correct P ,should have been Edward.A fine shot himself,who considerd personal bags of under 150 birds as a poor days shooting.
However there are exceptions to the rule,and the most famous would be of course Annie Oakley.



Found this on another site,and seeing that the" Glorious 12th" is almost upon us I thought this would serve for the general amusement,elucidation,and education of the present polite company,if anyone should recive an invitation to a gouse shoot.

http://lucindaville.blogspot.com/2009/07/etiquette-wednesday-lady-troubridge.html


Etiquette may be defined as the technique of the art of social life."

So begins Lady Troubridge. As August is just around the corner and we all know that the shooting season begins 12 August with our grouse shooting in Scotland, let us review a few things one needs to remember when headed off to the shooting party.




First,

"Invitations to country houses for parties are generally for three to five day."

During these days one finds a strict gender divide.

"The ladies at a shooting party are expected to amuse themselves during the morning after the men have gone off shooting. In the afternoon the hostess generally arranges a drive or some other interest, but it is always open to the guest to do exactly as she pleases. As a general rule, however, the hostess and the ladies of the party join the shooters for a picnic luncheon out of doors. If a lady cares to go out with the men in the morning and watch the shooting it is permissible for her to do so if she is sure that she will be welcome. Some ladies walk with guns after luncheon. If a lady goes out with the guns she must not talk during the shooting or wear brightly colored clothes."

And for the men:

"A man who is going to shoot must provide his own cartridges. He is not expected to bring a loader other than his own valet, who will act in that capacity. A loader is provided by the host for a man who does not bring a valet.
A loader is not need unless a man uses two guns. A man is expected to have a pair of guns if he accepts an invitation to a large shoot."

Confused? Just remember, pack your valet and make sure he brings the ammo. Pack your wife but don't let her bring the fuschia frock. You'll be fine

Tackleberrywho

Found this on another site,and seeing that the" Glorious 12th" is almost upon us I thought this would serve for the general amusement,elucidation,and education of the present polite company,if anyone should recive an invitation to a gouse shoot.

Nothing Glorious about the 12th
Especially with all the tyres that are burned on the 12th!!

locum-motion

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Found this on another site,and seeing that the" Glorious 12th" is almost upon us I thought this would serve for the general amusement,elucidation,and education of the present polite company,if anyone should recive an invitation to a gouse shoot.

Nothing Glorious about the 12th
Especially with all the tyres that are burned on the 12th!!

Depends which 12th your talking about!
'Glorious' traditionally referred to August.

doubletrigger

thanks fisma,that's the best i heard it explained.
budget wud b bit of an issue i am not to sure yet it b under 500euro.
dad is leaning towards a 12b.. i say id have some problems getting cartridges for a 20b local gun dealer doesnt have much variety of anything really and since there dearer its kinda of putting ..i think an semi is outta the question for a while, tink hes worried id forget about the rest of the cartridges after firing a shot or two..hes been very rigorous when it came to safety training as we usually hunt with around a group of 20 and i know it very important when out by myself aswel.

pedroeibar1
''For a fox, I suggest that at least 6 pellets (some of which must hit a ‘vital’) each with a striking energy of 1.5 foot-pounds are necessary for a humane kill. Beyond 40 metres, using about 1000fps the amount of lead on the target starts at about two metres and I would not like to be shooting over dogs in close proximity to a fox in those circumstances and certainly would not recommend it to a beginner''

not always possible to get an outright kill but you always have the second barrel for the finishing shot though i suppose you cant always depend on that either.
its very rare that the dogs be that close on the fox as it knows the pads its running and they usually start to run when they hear the dogs cumin.the safety of the dogs always cum first

Dawn 2 Dusk!!!

i shoot a 20g yieldiez!!!
i find it as good as the 12g but the carridges are a small bit dearer but not much though!!

FISMA

doubleTrigger,
You're very welcome.

€500 is more than enough, far more than I could afford at the time of my first shotgun.

CZ makes a nice auto at a fair price
http://hammerbackguns.com/images/CZ%2006040.png

If Dad has a 12ga sxs, I would suggest getting something different. From what you have posted, it appears that you want the 12ga. I would definitely suggest the over and under. It is not as job specific as the sxs.

Baikal, a Russian company, makes a lot of firearms readily available in Ireland. The IZH-27 is a nice model.
http://www.elconquis.com/images/baikal%20izh-27em-1c.jpg

Final bits of advice: (1) get something that has removable chokes. (2) When you buy chokes, get the extended ones that protrude outside the barrel and do not require that you carry a wrench with you, and (3) if you are buying something new, purchase from a manufacturer that if something goes wrong, there will not be a problem in sending it back or having it repaired.

Slan

Grizzly 45

doubletrigger wrote: »

thanks fisma,that's the best i heard it explained.

budget wud b bit of an issue i am not to sure yet it b under 500euro.
dad is leaning towards a 12b.. i say id have some problems getting cartridges for a 20b local gun dealer doesnt have much variety of anything really and since there dearer its kinda of putting ..i think an semi is outta the question for a while, tink hes worried id forget about the rest of the cartridges after firing a shot or two..hes been very rigorous when it came to safety training as we usually hunt with around a group of 20 and i know it very important when out by myself aswel.

Well, if it is an unrestricted al you would have in there is three shots.So logically,if you fired once,two must be in there??They are no more dangerous than a DBBL once you understand fully how they work.If a semi is too much risk get a pump action as then you must conciously work the action and that will give you a shot count.

SIG

Newby, I have been shooting for 40 years +. 20 years ago I bought a S/H 20 Ga Beretta side by side. I have used it for Snipe, Woodcock & Duck over the years. Its lighter for a days walking. One thing I can tell you is that I have often dropped a Snipe at 60-70 Yards on the second barrel. The ammo is more expensive but it does not bother me. I have other side by sides , London & Bermingham which are fine for Driven shoots , but i have a real love of 20 bore. In the history of english guns one of the most powerful was a Lang 12/20. It used a 12 bore shell but the barrel outlet was that of a 20 bore. Buy a 20 bore under and over and it can be used for clays as well as sporting.

tfox

Doubletrigger I have a varied selection of guns but my folding Lumar 20b over and under is my rough beating and lamping gun and I've lost count of the amount of foxes its accounted for !! It's nice and light and has a sling so ideal for beating, plus its worth nothing so I dont care if it gets scratched or scraped !!! Had a beretta 20b for couple of years before I bought the caesar guerini, both lovely guns.

Know your range, aim well, and ur flying.