Sussing out web design companys - cowboys or not

iii Stevo iii

I am doing some research into web design company's and am trying to suss out what company's are using modified templates and what company's are building from the ground up.

There are a few sites in particular that I am interested to know if the web design company's are just modifying templates and passing it off as their own work.

I'm not sure if its against the charter to post the links to the sites here so I wont.

Is there any way to check this?

Axwell

Well it would be more about the price they are charging. Using templates and modifying them is common practice for a lot of web designers. Why reinvent the wheel when there is no need. A lot use CMS that come with template options and then modify the theme and add in modules to fit the design they are working on and creating for the client.

If however they are claming to design bespoke websites or charging for a bespoke design and using a template then that would be more an issue. You need to clarify what your reasons are for researching this. Different companies have different approaches but the price they are charging for the project should reflect this. Some businesses are happy to pay for low cost web design using a common template with just their logo and their text.

iii Stevo iii

Thanks for your reply.

Ill give an example:
Web design company charges 2000euro + Vat for development and design of site from the ground up.

How do I go about ensuring this is the case and not just a modified template? as a consumer

loloray

I'm not at all being smart here, but what about just straightforwardly asking these companies?

tricky D

I think your focus is a bit off here. Using a template isn't really the problem, it's how it's used. The use of templates doesn't necessarily imply bad value. Indeed the time savings can allow for better value to be obtained elsewhere in the processes. However, you are right to be worried about cowboys grabbing any old Joomla template and plonking your logo in the header, making a few other minor changes and chucking in the content. That's a problem of a lazy cowboy, not a Lazy quality professional. That's capital 'L' lazy professional who looks lazy (but isn't) because as Axwell says, she/he doesn't go reinventing stuff and also has most of the bases already covered. E.g. I can't remember the last time I designed a site from scratch as I have a number of my own ready-to-go templates (layouts as opposed to cowboy-ready templates) which I customise according to both my design and the clients' requirements. To start with a blank sheet would be plain inefficient giving bad value and being over-priced.

The €2000 price doesn't tell us too much without knowing more about the site specifications and features. As mentioned, there's nothing inherently wrong with using templates - they occupy a rung on the design ladder of many designers.

Typically, I'd expect to pay less for design if a template is used, and more for a template designed 100% from the ground up. But even here the water is muddied. There are many designers doing custom templates but using frameworks to reduce the need for repetitive common tasks (like css resets, typography, grid layouts, wordpress page skeletons, etc.). These frameworks don't have much in the way of design in them. Can these designers claim to have built the template from the ground up?

shayleon

Why don't you just check the guys work? You can also ask to meet with their graphic designer to discuss your demands... at the end of the day YOU are the one to authorise the design.

These days for €2000 I'd expect a full e-commerce site + SEO + CMS + custom graphics.

cheers.

S

Eoin

shayleon wrote: »

These days for €2000 I'd expect a full e-commerce site + SEO + CMS + custom graphics.

That seems quite cheap.

Webmonkey

eoin wrote: »

That seems quite cheap.

Indeed

Placebo

shayleon wrote: »

Why don't you just check the guys work? You can also ask to meet with their graphic designer to discuss your demands... at the end of the day YOU are the one to authorise the design.

These days for €2000 I'd expect a full e-commerce site + SEO + CMS + custom graphics.

cheers.

S

CMS + SIMPLE SITE [custom graphics] = €2000
and by cms i mean something lite, third party

you must be havin a lol to expect full e-commerce site + SEO + CMS + custom graphics for €2000, youre asking for a Ferrari here for the price of a ford.

Liam Byrne

shayleon wrote: »

These days for €2000 I'd expect a full e-commerce site + SEO + CMS + custom graphics.

So that's full spec, database and functionality design, sign-off (and rework / finalising / tweaks) on graphics, coding, content installation, search engine optimisation of said content, and testing on all browsers in what ? 10 - 13 days at a base rate of €20 - €25 per hour ?

Would you seriously consider a website that had a little over one day on each of those to be robust and professional ?

I certainly wouldn't.

Collumbo

eoin wrote: »

That seems quite cheap.

my two cents: it's very bloody cheap! do the math. I don't want to get into silly number arguments here but let's just say the rate is around €250 a day to get a guy in to do this. For €2k, this would indicate around 10 days work. (I know i know.. some crowds charge €1400, others €800, others charge €8k per job and take yonks, others €100 and make too-good-to-be-true promises ... it depends on the company and your requirements).

Do you reckon he would get the whole lot done in 10 days? Personally I doubt it. But it depends...

On the other hand, if you'd let him use a template and reuse code as much as possible (which is what I do all the time because 1. I know it works and 2.It allows me to get quicker at doing stuff) and get the thing working quickly, then 2k might be fair enough.

But again, it depends -- what are you looking for? An online banking system or a five-page website to advertise your business that won't change very often? The difference is one will probably cost upwards of 1/2 million, the other shouldn't cost more than 200 quid.

Liam Byrne

Collumbo wrote: »

let's just say the rate is around €250 a day to get a guy in to do this......

....the other shouldn't cost more than 200 quid.

Based on your own figures, you're still doing VERY well if you can decide on the template, get the content from the client and get it all done, tested, signed off and completed in less than a day.

The €200 brigade have the industry ruined, tbh.

A VERY basic, non-CMS site for about €350 - €450 is do-able, but for anything less than that the client would need to have everything completely and utterly spec'd out and and all content on a CD on my desk before I could justify considering it as a proper project.

shayleon

Placebo wrote: »

CMS + SIMPLE SITE [custom graphics] = €2000
and by cms i mean something lite, third party

you must be havin a lol to expect full e-commerce site + SEO + CMS + custom graphics for €2000, youre asking for a Ferrari here for the price of a ford.

no lol. I would do it for even less.
Perhaps I'm a bit naive about ongoing rates.

It's my 1st visit to this forum, and didn't mean to divert the topic, but your replies really made me wonder what are the ongoing rates.

shayleon

P.S. Drupal CMS with Ubercart can be set in a couple of days.
Why do you think my estimate is so wrong?

Collumbo

shayleon wrote: »

Why do you think my estimate is so wrong?

because a lot of customers realise what they are looking for after you've produced something that has already taken you a few days... and some will need hand-holding afterwards to be taught how to enter something into the CMS.

This is why most quotes are cheap to begin with, and then spiral out of control. It is and always was a tough thing to get right.

As for drupal and ubercart, i agree... a few days if even to get up and running. But what about the customer who rings you a few times a day for the first month? Do you factor that into the overall cost?

shayleon

Collumbo wrote: »

because a lot of customers realise what they are looking for after you've produced something that has already taken you a few days... and some will need hand-holding afterwards to be taught how to enter something into the CMS.

This is why most quotes are cheap to begin with, and then spiral out of control. It is and always was a tough thing to get right.

As for drupal and ubercart, i agree... a few days if even to get up and running. But what about the customer who rings you a few times a day for the first month? Do you factor that into the overall cost?

Good points!

TitoPuente

shayleon wrote: »

These days for €2000 I'd expect a full e-commerce site + SEO + CMS + custom graphics.

If you want to actually make any money from your e-commerce site, try multiplying your budget by about 8. Just because incompetent idiots are charging €2,000 for e-commerce sites, doesn't mean those of us who are able to deliver quality and a return on investment for our clients should have to complete with them on price. We'd be out of business if we tried.