Salvific Exclusivity

hivizman · 06-07-2010 12:10pm #1

As I have mentioned several times on this forum, I am not a Muslim, but I am particularly interested in the relationship between Islam and other faiths, especially Christianity. The Qur'an gives Christians, Jews and some others a special status as "People of the Book" (ahl al-kitab), and some verses suggest that the People of the Book will be treated more leniently on the Day of Judgement than those who associate partners with Allah (mushrikeen).

However, there are other verses that suggest that only those who fully embrace Islam as revealed to Muhammad will enter Paradise, and everyone else, no matter that they worship God according to their conception of God and no matter how good their deeds, will be condemned for eternity to the Hellfire. This view goes under the technical theological name "Salvific Exclusivity", and, to be fair, is not just a characteristic of Islam. Christians hold that there is no salvation without Jesus, although different churches and sects put different interpretations on what this means.

There was recently a conference at the University of Illinois, where various views on Islamic attitudes to salvific exclusivity were propounded. The presentations are available on-line at http://www.relst.uiuc.edu/salvation/, but they will take a couple of days to view. There is a summary of the event on the muslimmatters.org website, which focuses particularly on the presentation by Sheikh Yasir Qadhi. This presentation emphasises a view attributed to classical and medieval Muslim exegetes of "strict salvific exclusivity" - salvation comes only through Islam (except for those who have either never heard of Islam or have heard only a distorted version), and hence Christians and others who hear a clear version of Islam and reject it are damned to the Hellfire. Some of the other presentations take a more flexible line, however.

I'd be interested in what other forum members think about this issue. Do you believe that the Path of Islam is the only way to Paradise, or do you believe that there are different Paths?

Plowman · 11-07-2010 2:51pm

This post has been deleted.

hivizman · 11-07-2010 8:15pm

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You need a fast broadband connection, otherwise they take a long time to download.

Muslim · 24-08-2010 9:41am

Greetings.

The reason why there is mercy for Jews and Christians is because they also believe in God and Messengers and the Holy Books... This is why they are called "People of the Book".

However in practical terms the only thing that is different related to Jews and Christians compared to other religions is that Muslim men can marry Christian and Jewish women (with the condition that they be chaste) and secondly Muslims can eat their meat (with the condition that the animal is halal and slaughtered properly)

Yasir Qadhi is correct... At the end, the only people who will make it to Paradise through God's mercy are those who follow monotheism and believe in the true messengers of their times... This includes Jews before Christ who believed in God and Torah and Christians before Muhammad who believed in God and the Bible... It would be strange for someone to not have heard about Islam in this day and age... It is a fundamental principle of Islam that the key to get God's mercy is to submit to the will of God as a Muslim... Those who say otherwise, well lets just say they get very rich by getting state funds

It should be mentioned that becoming a Muslim is not a ticket to Paradise either... Muslims will be tested in this life and punished severely by God for failing to keep commandments... However God may forgive if God chooses to do so... As for non Muslims who do good deeds... It is said that their deaths are made easy for them... and there are degrees of torment in Hell as well...

Hope that answers the question...

hivizman · 01-09-2010 5:06pm

I'm now back from my holiday, so thanks for the comment.

irishconvert · 01-09-2010 9:32pm

hivizman wrote: »

I'm now back from my holiday, so thanks for the comment.

Welcome back :-)

af_thefragile · 01-09-2010 10:07pm

I herd hamza yusuf saying in a lecture that one of the opinions between some scholars (and i think imam ghazali supported this belief too, correct me if I'm wrong) that if a person/group of people hasn't received the message of god or they're living in a time where the original message has become so corrupted that it's pretty much lost, then they will not be accounted for their actions. Only the people who get the message and then reject it after understanding it will go to he'll.

Also if a person does something wrong which is something against the fitra/natural law such as killing another person, then he will be accounted for it. Though some scholars believe that even if a person commits such a crime he'll not be accountable for it till he gets the message on what's wrong and what's right. As the nature of man is of forgetfulness and unless the person is reminded of the message of god (reminded as all humans have taken an oath in front of god before the start of creation that they/we believe in Allah as their Lord, don't remember which verse of Quran that is in), so when people are born, they forget that oath they've taken and they need to be reminded of it and unless they're not reminded of it, they're not accountable for what they do.

It's like the islamic laws only came into action when the prophet returned to Mecca. After a period of when all the Muslims thinking and understanding had developed enough to follow onto the laws of Islam.

And at the end of the day it's not us who decides who's going to heaven or hell. It's only god's job to decide that and he sends to heaven and hell who he wishes to. So we can never know who's going where.

I think it was sk. Hamza's lecture on the lives of human beings in which he explained this. Though he did speak about this in many other lectures too.

af_thefragile · 01-09-2010 10:22pm

And to add a bit more. Most people nowdays have got the message (uless the live in some remote part of the amazon forest or somewhere where they have no contact with the outside world). Because of the media and globalisation and all, there are enough people around the world to have reminded most of us of the message from god.

irishconvert · 02-09-2010 7:00am

af_thefragile wrote: »

And to add a bit more. Most people nowdays have got the message (uless the live in some remote part of the amazon forest or somewhere where they have no contact with the outside world). Because of the media and globalisation and all, there are enough people around the world to have reminded most of us of the message from god.

I have to disagree with that. I had never met a Muslim until 7 years ago. Prior to that I was extremely ignorant and didn't know anything whatsoever about Islam.

af_thefragile · 02-09-2010 10:53am

Yeah but you still have been raised up in a society which distinguishes between right and wrong so if you do something wrong like murder someone or some other major sin, you can't say you didn't know. Christian morals, especially catholic morals are very similar to Islamic morals. There are only a few differences.

Though in some places the Quran also very clearly mentions that all the unbelievers are going into the fire. Allah only shows guidance to the ones he choses to guide. And he guides many and misguided many. The ones who are misguided are people of the hell fire.

But yeah some scholars say all non-Muslims, atleast the ones in today's age are going to hell. Some say only the ones who do wrong things will go to hell. But at the end of the day we really can't say anything. Like the story of the prostitute who once gave water to a thirsty dog and got forgiven for that one act of kindness.

Muslim · 03-09-2010 9:24am

Irish Convert...

You may not have met a Muslim but you knew about Islam...

So what do you call the people who have heard about Islam... that there is a book called the Quran which is claimed to be the word of God.. and they know there are many things wrong with the world today... Yet they dont bother picking up a book or looking out to meet people to discuss issues??

Arrogant!!!

Allah does not guide the wrong doers...

Muslim · 03-09-2010 9:26am

The issue about those who do not get the message of Islam is clear... They will be tested on the last day... Its also the same for those who are born with mental disability...

irishconvert · 03-09-2010 9:57am

Muslim wrote: »

Irish Convert...

You may not have met a Muslim but you knew about Islam...

So what do you call the people who have heard about Islam... that there is a book called the Quran which is claimed to be the word of God.. and they know there are many things wrong with the world today... Yet they dont bother picking up a book or looking out to meet people to discuss issues??

Arrogant!!!

Allah does not guide the wrong doers...

I knew there was a religion called Islam, but I honestly didn't know anything about it. I didn't know Hindus and Muslims were a different religion. That is how ignorant I was.

I totally disagree with your view that people who don't know about Islam are arrogant. If you take that view then you also have to say that Muslims who do not know about every other religions in the world are arrogant also.

Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and performs good deeds - will be rewarded by their Rabb; they will have nothing to fear or to regret - Surah 8, Verse 62

af_thefragile · 03-09-2010 10:39am

I think the story of the prophet's uncle is significant here as well. He was an excellent person and helped and protected the prophet throughout his life but he never accepted Islam out of pride and "what would the people say?". Because of that he became condemned to hell. Though because of his good deeds he'll be at the least severe level of hell which is still not a nice place to be.

Though in the prophet's uncle's case he knew about Islam and decided to not accept it after being aware about what Islam is.

Can also consider the case of the prophet's parents and all that who died before him, they wouldn't go to hell as they didn't get the message within their lifetime...

Muslim · 03-09-2010 10:55am

Irish Convert.

Learn to disagree after knowing what is being stated, not before...

I did not state that people who do not know about other religions are arrogant... Read carefully what i m saying...

I said that those who have heard about Islam and the Quran yet they do not bother thinking about it or make the effort to study it or discuss, despite knowing fully well that there is a lot of wrong with their own lives and thoughts/beliefs... they are the arrogant ones... and that is a fact...

Do you understand what arrogance means? Do you have a better term to describe such people? Ignorant by choice perhaps? In the end, the results are pretty much the same I m afraid.

As for your quotation of the verse... I hope you do not believe that God will forgive Christians and Jews and Sabians of this day and time... because if you do, you seriously need to go back to the very basics of Islam... and why bother converting then? You could simply have stayed a "nice do good christian"...

The verse is about the Christians, Jews and Sabians who lived before Islam... Not after it... I m surprised that you even converted to Islam despite having the belief that all is fair game here... Maybe you are trying to setup your own version of Islam perhaps?

Lastly... Are you able to translate the Arabic... Hum Feeha Khalidoon? If you can then you would know what it is about...

Muslim · 03-09-2010 11:12am

Hmmm...

Something tells me that Irish Convert is not having a great time? Whats wrong mate? Something you wanna talk about...

Apologies if my impression is incorrect... but you come across as upset at something?

irishconvert · 03-09-2010 1:35pm

Muslim wrote: »

Irish Convert.

Learn to disagree after knowing what is being stated, not before...

Not quite sure what you are getting at here

Muslim wrote: »

I did not state that people who do not know about other religions are arrogant... Read carefully what i m saying...

I said that those who have heard about Islam and the Quran yet they do not bother thinking about it or make the effort to study it or discuss, despite knowing fully well that there is a lot of wrong with their own lives and thoughts/beliefs... they are the arrogant ones... and that is a fact...

That is not what you said. Perhaps it is what you meant but that did not come across in what you typed...

irishconvert wrote: »

I have to disagree with that. I had never met a Muslim until 7 years ago. Prior to that I was extremely ignorant and didn't know anything whatsoever about Islam.

Muslim wrote: »

Irish Convert...

You may not have met a Muslim but you knew about Islam...

So what do you call the people who have heard about Islam... that there is a book called the Quran which is claimed to be the word of God.. and they know there are many things wrong with the world today... Yet they dont bother picking up a book or looking out to meet people to discuss issues??

Arrogant!!!

So you are claiming above that I knew about Islam, when I clearly stated that I know no Muslims and knew nothing whatsoever about Islam. How then was I arrogant?

Muslim wrote: »

Allah does not guide the wrong doers...

So how was I guided? Afterall I was a wrong doer. I think it is extermely arrogant of you to come on here and tell us categorally what Allah does and does not do.

Muslim wrote: »

Do you understand what arrogance means? Do you have a better term to describe such people? Ignorant by choice perhaps? In the end, the results are pretty much the same I m afraid.

We are talking about people who have not been given the message. You appear to suddenly refer to people who know about Islam, but who rejected it, they are a differnt story as we know.

Muslim wrote: »

As for your quotation of the verse... I hope you do not believe that God will forgive Christians and Jews and Sabians of this day and time... because if you do, you seriously need to go back to the very basics of Islam... and why bother converting then? You could simply have stayed a "nice do good christian"...

Are you categorally saying he won't? It is possible he will. Unless you are claiming you know the mind of Allah.

Muslim wrote: »

The verse is about the Christians, Jews and Sabians who lived before Islam... Not after it... I m surprised that you even converted to Islam despite having the belief that all is fair game here... Maybe you are trying to setup your own version of Islam perhaps?

Another example of your arrogant attitude. I'm glad I didn't run into you when I was first learning about Islam, I would have run a mile.

Muslim wrote: »

Lastly... Are you able to translate the Arabic... Hum Feeha Khalidoon? If you can then you would know what it is about...

No, I don't know Arabic.

irishconvert · 03-09-2010 1:41pm

af_thefragile wrote: »

Though in some places the Quran also very clearly mentions that all the unbelievers are going into the fire. Allah only shows guidance to the ones he choses to guide. And he guides many and misguided many. The ones who are misguided are people of the hell fire.

Why do they go to hell when Allah is the one who misguided them. How are they to blame?

Muslim · 03-09-2010 2:13pm

Irish Convert...

What is your real name and where are you based? If you claim to be a Muslim you should not have anything to hide... However from your attitude and beliefs it would seem that you are not a Muslim...

Muslims be careful of this person... He sounds like one of those Qadianis up in Galway....

Boards.ie Mods should take notice... This man is a fraud and not really a Muslim...

irishconvert · 03-09-2010 2:31pm

Muslim wrote: »

Irish Convert...

What is your real name and where are you based? If you claim to be a Muslim you should not have anything to hide... However from your attitude and beliefs it would seem that you are not a Muslim...

Muslims be careful of this person... He sounds like one of those Qadianis up in Galway....

Boards.ie Mods should take notice... This man is a fraud and not really a Muslim...

I can assure you I am a Muslim, Sunni, not Ahmadiyya.

Please stick to the charter which is attack the post, not the poster. If you want to get personal then send me a PM.

Muslim · 03-09-2010 2:40pm

Well duh... You are good at claiming you are Sunni but your ideas are nothing but Qadiani Trash...

Tell me who amongst the Sunnis state that Jews and Christians after the prophethood of Muhammad are not bound for Hell?

You think everyone is a fool...

and if you are so willing to assure us Mr "convert" how about telling us who you are... You can always PM me if you dont want others to know... You speak big words... You CAN assure me? Can you really? Be my guest then. Start by answering the questions I posed to you in my previous post... If Christianity and Judaism are acceptable faiths to God why did you "convert"??

I have reported you to other moderators... To have you as a Moderator for an Islamic forum is a silly joke...

irishconvert · 03-09-2010 2:50pm

Muslim wrote: »

Well duh... You are good at claiming you are Sunni but your ideas are nothing but Qadiani Trash...

Tell me who amongst the Sunnis state that Jews and Christians after the prophethood of Muhammad are not bound for Hell?

You think everyone is a fool...

I have told you time and time again, I was referring to Christians and Jews who HAVE NOT been given the message. Are you telling me absolutely all Christians and Jews will go to hell, regardless of whether they know about Islam or not, regardless of their deeds? Please answer this, don't gloss over as you have already. Will THEY ALL go to hell?

Muslim wrote: »

and if you are so willing to assure us Mr "convert" how about telling us who you are... You can always PM me if you dont want others to know... You speak big words... You CAN assure me? Can you really? Be my guest then. Start by answering the questions I posed to you in my previous post... If Christianity and Judaism are acceptable faiths to God why did you "convert"??

Why should I tell you my identity? I don't know who you are. How can you knowing my name validate anything?

I converted as a Muslim friend of mine gave me Dawah and I saw it was the truth.

Muslim wrote: »

I have reported you to other moderators... To have you as a Moderator for an Islamic forum is a silly joke...

Good for you, I hope they remind you of the attack the post, not the poster rule in the charter.

This is your final warning on this BTW, if you get personal once more you will be taking a break from this forum until you cool down.

Muslim · 03-09-2010 3:12pm

Until I cool down... Wow... So now I m the one who is angry?

Listen mate... I can see what you are doing here... You are dodging my questions, you are re stating things to make yourself look innocent whereas people can see what you said earlier and what you are saying now... They can also see that you are the one who is angry and upset... I actually sensed that way back in the thread... You are not doing a discussion here... Its more like a verbal fist fight with you...

So let me break it down for you... step by step...

1. Who are the Christians and Jews who have not been given the message of Islam?

2. Did you read my posting about the one who did not know about Islam tested on the last day?

3. Why hide behind a handle? Your true identity could reveal you as Imam Ibrahim or his son and then we will know that you are not who you claim to be... It is a fair thing to ask considering the following point.

4. You ask why God sends people to hell when He is the one who misguides them. Its in the Quran. Do you have a problem with it? I ask this particular question because you post questions in a manner unlike a real Muslim would.

5. When you yourself acknowledge that you do not know Arabic why act as an expert on Islam here?

6. You think I m scared of you banning me from this forum?

7. How old are you?

irishconvert · 03-09-2010 3:29pm

Muslim wrote: »

Until I cool down... Wow... So now I m the one who is angry?

Listen mate... I can see what you are doing here... You are dodging my questions, you are re stating things to make yourself look innocent whereas people can see what you said earlier and what you are saying now... They can also see that you are the one who is angry and upset... I actually sensed that way back in the thread... You are not doing a discussion here... Its more like a verbal fist fight with you...

I am not argry or upset. You are the one who keeps stating this, perhaps this is how you are feeling?

Muslim wrote: »

So let me break it down for you... step by step...

1. Who are the Christians and Jews who have not been given the message of Islam?

I was one of them, for 25 years of my life I knew nothing about Islam. I never met a Muslim, I never came across the Qur'an. I was not thought about any religion other that Catholism in school. When I left school I didn't give a **** about religion. I wasn't arrogant, I just didn't care about it. All I was interested in was having a good time. I think there are a very large % of Irish people in the same boat.

Muslim wrote: »

2. Did you read my posting about the one who did not know about Islam tested on the last day?

Yes I did, you say they will be tested on the last day. Is that your answer to my question then? People who have not received the message will be tested on the last day?

Muslim wrote: »

3. Why hide behind a handle? Your true identity could reveal you as Imam Ibrahim or his son and then we will know that you are not who you claim to be... It is a fair thing to ask considering the following point.

It is none of your business who I am. I will tell you I have no idea who Imam Ibrahim is and I have never been to a mosque in Galway. I live in London and Regent's Park Mosque is my regular mosque.

Muslim wrote: »

4. You ask why God sends people to hell when He is the one who misguides them. Its in the Quran. Do you have a problem with it? I ask this particular question because you post questions in a manner unlike a real Muslim would.

As you like to cast yourself as somewhat of an expert I am asking you a geniune question on something your brought up. How many years have you been a Muslim? Are you a born Muslim? I have been Muslim for 2 years. Do you always react in such a way when a "new Muslim" asks you a question? I don't claim to be an expert, in fact I am far from it. You really need to rethink how you respond to questions, especially from new Muslims and potential reverts. Your attitude could have a negative effect on their future decisions to embrace Islam.

Muslim wrote: »

5. When you yourself acknowledge that you do not know Arabic why act as an expert on Islam here?

I never act as an expert. I don't get involved in may of the discussions if I don't know enough about the topic. I am a moderator, my job is to enforce the charter, that is all. The other Islam rmoderator is not a Muslim, do you also object to him being a mod here?

Muslim wrote: »

6. You think I m scared of you banning me from this forum?

I couldn't care less. I do hope you stick by the rules and remain polite so you do not get banned. Then maybe we can thrash out the points made in the posts rather than you attacking me personally.

Muslim wrote: »

7. How old are you?

None of your business.

Muslim · 03-09-2010 4:07pm

haha..

1. You have the audacity to state that you did nt give a **** and then state that you were not arrogant in the very next sentence... Let me make it easy for you... The one who has an attitude of "I dont give a **** is showing nothing but arrogance". Dont mind me saying that you still have a lot of that within you the way you have been conducting this discussion.

2. If you did read my answer why did you keep asking the same question again and again? Why are you trying to pick up a fight?

3. It becomes my business to know who you really are when I see you trying to post material in your offending tone of "unless you claim that you know that mind of Allah"

Heres a basic lesson in Islam for you Mr Convert... The will and mind of Allah is well known in the Quran and the Sunnah...

4. The other Mod has nt been rude and aggressive to me yet... If he does I ll report him to higher ups on the board also... Not because of any personal agenda rather because I see your attitude as a hinderance against proper discussion... and since you acknowledge that you are not an expert and dont know much about Islam perhaps it would be best if you let others speak and you yourself stay silent?

5. Mr Convert... You are talking to someone who has by the grace of Allah brought people to Islam and people have taken their pledge of Islam on his hand... I ask you again... What is it that you are upset about?

6. I have nt attacked you at all... I m just saying that your ideas are unlike those of Muslims... Even children know that Islam is the only acceptable faith and ideology to Allah swt... Then when you come along trying to enforce something different upon the community here, it tells me that there is something seriously wrong with your ideas...

7. Am I allowed a guess?

af_thefragile · 03-09-2010 4:18pm

irishconvert wrote: »

Why do they go to hell when Allah is the one who misguided them. How are they to blame?

Well it does say that there is a blackness in the unbelievers heart and Allah increases the darkness in their hear so they get lost deaf, dumb and blind...

Also I think somewhere it says that Allah guides many with the Quran and misguides many with it. In the Quran there is a guidance for the believers so the people who believe will be guided by it. But also if anyone approaches the quran in a way to try and find faults in it or try to achieve a certain interpretation out of it (like in the case of the extremists who use queanic verses to justify their violent acts) they will be misguided by it.

Which is why you must have a teacher who is a scholar to teach you the right meanings and understandings of the quranic verses. If you just read the Quran or worse a translation of it to try to interpret and understand it's meaning, you can very easily get misguided by it. Historically people always studied the Quran and Islamic studies under a scholar. It's a very new phenomenon where people have started to think they can understand the concepts and deep delicate meanings of Islam by just readings books or worse through the Internet.

Getting back to your question about why god punishes them when he misguides them himself. It's because god only misguided people who are evil and have dark hearts "in their hearts is a sickness and Allah increases their sickness".
People who have a sound and pure hearts, Allah will guide them towards the light if they make the effort to find the truth. Allah guided you to Islam because Allah had mercy on you and he saw your heart was pure and you were yearning for guidance. I'm sure there was a point in your life where you were in desperate need of god's guidance and in search of the truth and so Allah guided you.

Many people don't reach this point and/or their hearts aren't as pure and so Allah leaves them alone.

And at the end of it all it is Allah who guides people to Islam. People only become a Muslim if Allah wishes them to become a Muslim. There are many people who seek the truth and never really make it. This is because Allah didn't wish for them to make it.

And finally even Muslims are accountable for not spreading the message of Allah or potraying a bad image of islam (which is unfortunately what most Muslims are doing nowadays). So Muslims aren't immune from prosecution. If people didn't get the proper message of islam then the Muslims are in question for as to why they didn't propagate the right message more than any non-believer is. Allah will ask you "your neighbour was a non-believer and it was your duty to give him the message of Islam then why didn't you?"...

So as everything in Islam and the universe, it works both ways. If people got the message and they chose to reject it, then they're at fault and will be punished for that.
If people didn't get the message then they might be forgiven and the Muslims will cone into question for failing to propagate the message.

Islam isn't a cruel religion and god can't be unjust. Afterall his mercy is greater than his wrath. He does love his creation. But if his creation decides to go against him then he will punish those who disobey.

af_thefragile · 03-09-2010 4:29pm

Also Muslim I'm afraid to say you are coming off a bit too accusative. You need to be more gentle and patient with your words and responses.
Surely you might have greater knowledge of Islam than irishconvert but you must listen to and respect his opinions as well.

Sorry if I hurt anyone or came about a little harsh but a Muslim should be soft, patient and understanding in his conversations and life in general. As sk hamza yusuf said you'll only get people to listen to you and respect your opinions when you treat them with respect and more importantly as someone better than you.

Hobbes · 03-09-2010 4:54pm

Muslim wrote: »

Well duh... You are good at claiming you are Sunni but your ideas are nothing but Qadiani Trash...

This forum is for all followers of Islam (and non-followers) to discuss the topic of Islam. It is not for you to attack another persons faith, even if it goes directly against what you believe in. Comments like "Qadiani trash" when referring to Ahmadiyya is not acceptable.

I would much prefer to see a debate of the two followings then one side threatening to try and ban/remove the other.

Personal attacks are also out of order.

FriarMo · 23-09-2010 10:07pm

I am absolutely flabbergasted by “Muslim”'s attitude. Kindly show some humility- tawadhu’- with your dealings with other people (al Tawadhu’ min khisal al Mu’mineen), frankly the level of arrogance and hostility exhibited is mind-blowing. I can fully understand the sentiment expressed by Irishconvert that if you had been talking to him in the same way when he was first learning of Islam he would have run a mile away. ( Allah yahdee al jamee’)- God give guidance to all of us:

“It is part of God’s mercy that you deal gently with them, if you were rude harsh of manner severe of heart they would disperse from you, so be gracious if they err and ask God to have mercy on them and consult them” -Al Imran

Regarding the points you brought up, first of all I am a native Arabic speaker educated in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates and I see no relevance in bringing up “Hum Feeha Khalidoon” ( They shall lie there Khalidoon {an adjective derived from the noun Khulood- a state of being placed or to remain - and the 3 consonantal root Kh-L-D - : To remain- a cognate of the common first name Khalid }) - which is referring to the verse (39) preceding the one quote by Irishconvert in Al Baqara:

“Walladheena kafaroo wakadhthaboo biaayatina ula’ika ashabu annari hum feeha khalidoon”

It refers quite clearly in the context of the verse to a specific promise from God to Adam and Eve after they were banished for disobeying God and after having been in direct communication with Him that he will present signs/miracles to them and if they deny them and deny faith God’s judgment will be for them to abide in hell. It is quite specific, as is the use of “kafarooo” to reject, from the 3 consonantal K-F-R to cover or conceal, you cannot conceal or reject something when you do not first have an understanding of it, and the word “Kafir” which is derived from it has been misused as an unfair slur to describe falsely Non-Muslims.

Furthermore the verb tense for believed used in the verse Irishconvert quoted (Al Baqara 62) is Aamana (have been believing) not Aamano (had believed) it indicates a present perfect continuous tense rather than a past perfect referring to those of other religions who have faith in God in the past present and in the future to receive a reward and not be anxious for them and that they shall not despair.

This becomes very clear when we look at another part of the Quran where “Hum Feeha Khalidoon” is mentioned:

“Not all are equal in [in how they shall be judged], of the People of the Book are those that stand for what is right. They ponder upon the signs of God long into the night and they prostrate themselves in adoration to Him. They believe in God and the day of judgement; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten to do good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows who is righteous. [While] Those who reject the truth after knowing it neither their possessions and worldly gains nor their progeny will avail them. Those are of the fire, dwelling therein.(Hum Feeha Khalidoon)” Al Imran

What we may understand from those verses is that God is making a distinction between non-Muslims who are righteous and those are not and that each will be judged and rewarded accordingly.

To answer the other point you brought up Al Ghazali in “Faisul al Tafriqa”and Ibn al Arabi to name a few as well as scholars in the Muslim Shia Tradition such as Tehrani have asserted that salvation is possible for Non-Muslims, you might disagree with them but they are certainly not scholarly lightweights and some have influenced Islamic theology and jurisprudence for almost a thousand years.

From the Quran itself we have these verses that I believe back that view:

“And you shall find amongst the strongest of who are compassionate to those whom believe: Those who declare, we are Christians; for amongst them are those devoted to learning and who have renounced worldly status, and are not arrogant; when they listen to the revelation from God given to a messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears for they recognise truth in it and they exclaim: "Lord! We have faith; consider us among the witnesses. We do not deny belief in God and the truth, and we long for God to admit us to the company of the righteous in heaven and so God has rewarded them with beautiful gardens with rivers flowing underneath their eternal home in paradise. Such is the recompense of those who do good” Al Ma'eda,

“If God so willed, he would have created you a single nation, but his plan is to test each of you separately, in what He has given to each of you: so strive to be virtuous. The fate of all of you is with God. It is He who will judge amongst you” Al Ma'eda

“People of the Book, let us come together to what is common between us: That we worship none but God, that we hold no other partners with Him, that we ourselves create no other deities other than God. If they then deny that, say 'Bear witness that we accept the will of God’.' Al Imran

One of the greatest Muslim apologists of our time –in my opinion- Shabir Ally went into detail regarding this issue; the Prophet struggled immensely for over 20 years in spreading the message among his own kinfolk- his flesh and blood, with even Umar ibn al Khattab the second Caliph initially being very hostile. How can we then state that in this day and age that the message of Islam is easily accessible to most non-Muslims and that it is “arrogant” of them not to be aware of it or study it and subsequently accept it? A time when some of the most well-known examples of its adherents are those who commit heinous crimes beyond imagination. When the amount of hearsay, fabrication, weak hadiths and immensely varying accounts are rampant. The Arabs of Mecca had exclusively as a specimen of the faith to judge Islam by a group of believers that epitomized humility, brotherly love, kindness, charity and devotion, headed by the Prophet himself. What do we have today as Muslims to show the world? Backward totalitarian corrupt regimes with Muslim rulers subjugating their Muslim population to a life without dignity? Those who in the name of Islam strap themselves with bombs and murder the innocent wantonly on a daily basis? Frankly who can blame non-Muslims from making their own assumptions and despising the faith and its holy book even before knowing what it is, never mind being ambivalent to it; but for the grace of God goes any ones of us!

(Wa Allahu A'lam)

To presume to know the will and “mind” of God is the very epitome of arrogance. The links you have provided in other posts have given me an inkling of your theological background and which sources you are drawing from; it’s what I categorize as “Dungeons and Dragons” Islam, a mythological romanticisation of early Arab post-Islamic history often accompanied by permanent dress rehearsals for a battle of Qadisiyya re-enactment (unfortunately the thick Bradford or Leeds accents often tends to give the game away- A prime example is Abdullah Al Andalusi a convert from Anglicism who I doubt had any ancestors who ever wore a Jalabiya ‘Abaya or ‘Imama, and yet is hardly seen out of that get up, even showing off an Arabian “saif”(sword) at times and “khoodha” (spiked helmet) ...What a sad parody of the faith.) This fantasy turns sinister when a person shows an inability to acknowledge the 1400 years of advancement in Islamic scholarship and jurisprudence and in the fields of the natural sciences, psychology, sociology and understanding of the human condition and the utter disdain of those achievements since the inception of the religion - the Amish version of Islam if you will but not even as progressive!

Before you start doubting that more people are actually Muslim, or “heretics”, I was raised under the influence of the Maliki and Shafi’i traditions which is 2 of the 4 recognised classical schools of Sunni jurisprudence. Excuse me if I allowed my feelings of frustration to seep through this post, but it irks me to have those who are relatively new to the faith as well as non-Muslims in Ireland with a genuine interest exposed to such a terrible example of how a Muslim should conduct him/herself; and in a forum established for the very purpose of bringing people together in an appreciation of Islam and its theology no less.

"Inna al Deenu 'lkhuluq" -(Religion is how you comport and behave)