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Problem with Honda jazz

  • 06-07-2010 11:45AM
    #1
    dcfc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 ✭✭


    A friend of mine has a honda jazz 1.4 2002 and at the minute he is having problems with what only can be described as kangarooing, i.e it is chugging/ jumping at low speeds. The car has been put on a diagnostic machine and showed up coil faults, he has looked on the internet and information has pointed towards the EGR valve. Problem is, this cant be confirmed by mechanic unless it is replaced which will cost approx £300 and may not be the cause of the problem. Has anyone had similar problems with this type of car?


Comments

  • #2
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    dcfc wrote: »
    A friend of mine has a honda jazz 1.4 2002 and at the minute he is having problems with what only can be described as kangarooing, i.e it is chugging/ jumping at low speeds. The car has been put on a diagnostic machine and showed up coil faults, he has looked on the internet and information has pointed towards the EGR valve. Problem is, this cant be confirmed by mechanic unless it is replaced which will cost approx £300 and may not be the cause of the problem. Has anyone had similar problems with this type of car?

    Trust the diagnostic machine or trust the internet. Hmmm.

    Faulty EGR valve won't cause kangarooing.

    My advice is bring it to a different mechanic.


  • #3
    dcfc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 ✭✭dcfc


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Trust the diagnostic machine or trust the internet. Hmmm.

    Faulty EGR valve won't cause kangarooing.

    My advice is bring it to a different mechanic.


    He did trust the diagnostic test, he got the car checked and there were no issues with the coils / leads, thats why he turned to the internet which pointed him in the direction of the EGR valve.


  • #4
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    dcfc wrote: »
    He did try trust the diagnostic test, he got the car checked and there were no issues with the coils / leads, thats why he turned to the internet which pointed him in the direction of the EGR valve.

    Disconnect the EGR valve then. It's on the front left. You will get a check engine light but it shouldn't affect driving.


  • #5
    dcfc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 ✭✭dcfc


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Disconnect the EGR valve then. It's on the front left. You will get a check engine light but it shouldn't affect driving.

    Thanks.
    Can this be left disconnected indefinately and will it affect NCT test which is due in August.


  • #6
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    dcfc wrote: »
    Thanks.
    Can this be left disconnected indefinately and will it affect NCT test which is due in August.

    Check Engine light will be on indefinately - NCT don't like that


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  • #7
    dcfc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 ✭✭dcfc


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Check Engine light will be on indefinately - NCT don't like that


    He is going to disconnect it and at least if it stops, he will know that is what the problem is. Hopefully this will sort it as I am fed up listening to him go on about it!!!!


  • #8
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    It will cause the car to fail on emissions if it's disconnected, so only disconnect to test if it's the fault.


  • #9
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Car won't fail on emissions if the EGR is disconnected. The valve only opens when the car is above a certain speed and cruising with virtually no engine load, a scenario that won't occur in the NCT.


  • #10
    shamwari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    dcfc wrote: »
    The car has been put on a diagnostic machine and showed up coil faults, he has looked on the internet and information has pointed towards the EGR valve.

    Why is the EGR being considered when coil faults were picked up on the diagnostic test? Or did the diagnosis show "misfires" rather than coils? Does the OP know what the fault codes where? Did this car have ever its O2 sensor replaced with a non-Honda one?
    JHMEG wrote: »
    Faulty EGR valve won't cause kangarooing.

    Yes it can. If you have a valve partially stuck open or slow in closing then this will definetly cause kangarooing and flat spots to beat the band. Opel Corsa's and Astra's are nutorious for this and I have a bucket full of old GM EGR valves that were replaced for causing symptoms like this.

    Edit: the official Opel Mod for some of their earlier 16v engines is to blank off the EGR and perform flash upgrade of the ECU to disable the EGR.

    They call it a mod, if it were a someone else, the manufacturer would call it a bodge !


  • #11
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    shamwari wrote: »
    Yes it can. If you have a valve partially stuck open or slow in closing then this will definetly cause kangarooing and flat spots to beat the band. Opel Corsa's and Astra's are nutorious for this and I have a bucket full of old GM EGR valves that were replaced for causing symptoms like this.

    Edit: the official Opel Mod for some of their earlier 16v engines is to blank off the EGR and perform flash upgrade of the ECU to disable the EGR.

    They call it a mod, if it were a someone else, the manufacturer would call it a bodge !
    Maybe on other cars, but not on this one.

    The Honda valve is electromechanical with a sensor on it to detect a jam. If it gets stuck open or closed or anywhere in between the CEL comes on.

    It can't "flap" as it's a driven by a worm gear.

    The typical fault with this valve is for it to get stuck closed. Again CEL will illuminate.


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  • #12
    shamwari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Maybe on other cars, but not on this one.

    The Honda valve is electromechanical with a sensor on it to detect a jam. If it gets stuck open or closed or anywhere in between the CEL comes on.

    It can't "flap" as it's a driven by a worm gear.

    The typical fault with this valve is for it to get stuck closed. Again CEL will illuminate.

    So what happens if the stepper motor working the EGR is lazy or slow? It may well put the CEL on, but it can also cause erratic running (kangarooing) because the EGR flow is not what it should be, and the engine will momentarily be running on an airflow which is not metered. That is certainly the case with other cars I've worked on, and fixed, which operate with a regulated EGR like the Jazz.


  • #13
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    shamwari wrote: »
    So what happens if the stepper motor working the EGR is lazy or slow? It may well put the CEL on,
    OP never mentioned the CEL, and therefore we can assume the CEL never illuminated.

    I have a very similar engine with a very similar EGR valve which went faulty. I have experience.


  • #14
    shamwari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    JHMEG wrote: »
    OP never mentioned the CEL, and therefore we can assume the CEL never illuminated.

    No we can't because OP mentioned that "The car has been put on a diagnostic machine and showed up coil faults". There is the possibility that these did put the CEL on, but we can't assume that it didn't just because it wasn't mentioned.

    In addition I stand over my opinion that a slow / lazy EGR actuation can cause kangarooing on this car if the fault condition arises as I described earlier. Whether it produces a fault code or not is immaterial: it can cause kangarooing. And that is based on practical experience of several years, including the changing of many of these valves on different makes. By the way, did you have to force your EGR to relearn it's parameters after changing it?

    What I am more puzzled with here is why they EGR route was explored when the diagnostics pointed at coils, or as I suspect, misfires. I did have an issue once with a misfire on no3 on a 2litre CRV. Coils, plugs and even crankshaft sensor were replaced by the owner. The problem was caused by nothing more than insufficient valve clearences on that cylinder. Discovered some time after that it was a known problem, and Honda have issued a TSB on it.

    Incidentally, that Honda EGR valve you worked on is almost identical to the Opel ones I have been binning for a while now.


  • #15
    gibbon75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 879 ✭✭✭gibbon75


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Faulty EGR valve won't cause kangarooing.

    It was a common problem with the early Honda Jazz and the EGR valve was modified by Honda (just sold one two weeks ago).
    It can cause kangarooing,juddering,slow and lazy pick-up etc.

    @dcfc

    I don't know if your mechanic is aware that the Jazz has 8 spark plugs.
    Most of the cases this is overlooked and they just replace the front 4 and maybe the back ones are falling apart...
    I've seen a Jazz a couple of weeks ago were the coil melted due a faulty spark plug...


  • #16
    dcfc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 ✭✭dcfc


    JHMEG wrote: »
    OP never mentioned the CEL, and therefore we can assume the CEL never illuminated.

    I have a very similar engine with a very similar EGR valve which went faulty. I have experience.


    Apologies for not responding, it's not my car so I had to wait and speak to the owner.
    There are no Engine management lights illuminated and never were. The faults that were picked up on the diagnostic test were coil 1 and coil 4, these were checked by the mechanic and no faults were found.
    EGR was considered for no other reason than an internet search showing similar symptoms. The owner is going to get someone to disconnect this to test it out.
    Thanks for all the suggestions.


  • #17
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    There are 8 coils. Swap them around and see does the behaviour change.
    dcfc wrote:
    The owner is going to get someone to disconnect this to test it out.
    It's easier than changing a headlamp bulb - it doesn't require a specialist.
    gibbon75 wrote:
    It was a common problem with the early Honda Jazz and the EGR valve was modified by Honda (just sold one two weeks ago).
    It can cause kangarooing,juddering,slow and lazy pick-up etc.
    Without putting on the CEL?


  • #18
    gibbon75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 879 ✭✭✭gibbon75


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Without putting on the CEL?

    Sometimes it doesn't trigger the CEL for some reason :confused:


  • #19
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Car won't fail on emissions if the EGR is disconnected. The valve only opens when the car is above a certain speed and cruising with virtually no engine load, a scenario that won't occur in the NCT.
    Oh right. It will affect a diesel alright, as they rev it to the red-line in the NCT. They don't do that with a petrol.


  • #20
    shamwari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    JHMEG wrote: »
    There are 8 coils. Swap them around and see does the behaviour change.

    ....Without putting on the CEL?

    If doing a coil swap, ensure that coils associated with cylinders 1 & 4 are swapped only with those of two and three. AFAIK these used a wasted spark system so the pairs referred to here always fire together.

    The reason why a lazy EGR valve doesn't cause a CEL activation / P04xx stored code is usually in the following scenario:

    1) The ECU commands an EGR valve closure, and the stepper inside the valve moves correctly to the fully closed position. As far as the EGR is concerned, the valve is closed, so no fault code or CEL activation occurs

    2) The plunger inside EGR valve is however covered in lovely sticky tar-like carbon which cause the plunger to be slow to close or even jam partially open. Remember, the ECU thinks the valve is closed (correct stepper position), but the hesitancy or failure of the pluger to properly close isn't detected, but is still betrayed by and causes all of the kangarooing / flat spots / hesitation.

    3) If your scan tool is powerful enough, you can command manual activation of the EGR valve and see it open and closing without running the engine. Any lethargy of the valve's operation will immediately be evident. Sometimes I comman open the valve and clean the goo off the plunger and restore normal operation, but more often than not, I just bin the valve and replace it if the performance is poor on test.

    Some of the later EGR valves (certainly those of Euro4 compliant diesel engines) relay the real time running state of the valve back to the ECU. If the valves performance is poor then this will usually flag a fault code, but sometimes the codes may be just be a "pending" one, which may not necessarily trigger a CEL activation. These EGR valves have very critical levels of opening and are manufactured to high tolerances. When these valves are replaced, the ECU must relearn the valves configuration (called a "Learn Parameters") and this must be invoked using a suitable scan tool. If this doesn't happen, the engine will usually run rough and kangaroo a lot.


  • #21
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    shamwari wrote: »
    AFAIK these used a wasted spark system so the pairs referred to here always fire together.
    Is wasted spark used in any modern car?

    The plugs within the same cylinder don't fire at the same time either. iDSI = dual sequential ignition. The delay between the first and second plug firing is determined by the ECU.
    shamwari wrote: »
    IWhen these valves are replaced, the ECU must relearn the valves configuration (called a "Learn Parameters") and this must be invoked using a suitable scan tool.
    Not necessary on this car.


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  • #22
    shamwari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Is wasted spark used in any modern car?

    Yes the wasted spark system is used in modern cars. Renault Meganes, Clio's, Scenics and Lagunas with the pencil type coils operate wasted spark.

    Other cars with two coils firing a pair of cylinders are also wasted spark. Some Pugs and the Fiat Punto (definetly) are case in point.

    JHMEG wrote: »
    Not necessary on this car.

    I never said EGR learn parameters was necessary on the Jazz. If you re-read my earlier post CORRECTLY, you will see that my comments referred to "later EGR valves (certainly those of Euro4 compliant diesel engines)....When these valves are replaced, the ECU must relearn the valves configuration (called a "Learn Parameters")

    In any event, I'm glad that I've cleared up how an EGR valve can cause kangarooing without causing a CEL activation or flagging a fault code


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