"No - the government cannot be investigated" - Brian Lenihan

Biggins

Why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:

Mr Lenihan has stated that the banking inquiry cannot go beyond a certain date and investigate the actions of the government in regards to the banks.
I deeply suspect that they again don't want the full truth to come out.

* http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100705/tuk-banking-inquiry-can-extend-remit-e1cd776.html
* http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0705/banks.html

Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan has said there is no reason for a commission of inquiry to investigate the political handling of the financial crisis.
Opposition members of the Finance Committee want the scope of the proposed commission of inquiry into the banking crisis to be extended beyond the night the bank guarantee was put in place to discover what the minister know about the solvency problems of Anglo Irish Bank, and when he and his officials knew it.

Dear opposition,
Please, when ye get elected re-open this investigation if it is closed by then or shut down by Fianna Fail and extend its remit to include the highly suspicious actions of many a head of Fianna Fail and their cronies.

These lying schisters deserve to be exposed for the blatant disregard for the public and where they are shovelling our money!

Wolfe Tone

extend its remit to include the highly suspicious actions of many a head of Fianna Fail and their cronies.

Biggins, do we really need new tribunals?



The last thing I want is when FF leave office is to listen for the next 10 years about how bad they were. Animal farm springs to mind.... Surely you don't want Farmer Jones back?

PeterIanStaker

I dont think a money pyre like a tribunal is going to work in this instance.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Biggins, do we really need new tribunals?

The last thing I want is when FF leave office is to listen for the next 10 years about how bad they were. Animal farm springs to mind.... Surely you don't want Farmer Jones back?

Nope, just an investigation team without their hands tied from the start by those that have a vested interest in all possible facts being not disclosed.

PeterIanStaker

Biggins wrote: »

Nope, just an investigation team without their hands tied from the start by those that have a vested interest in all possible facts being not disclosed.

who ya gonna call?



seriously.

Nate--IRL--

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

who ya gonna call?



seriously.

Patrick Honohan for a start.

Nate

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Nope, just an investigation team without their hands tied from the start by those that have a vested interest in all possible facts being not disclosed.

And will that be worth the money it will cost?

Cookie_Monster

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

who ya gonna call?
seriously.

The EU.

/cue ghostbusters music

Wolfe Tone

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The EU.

/cue ghostbusters music

I will oblige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCHFVTQKqdQ

Nate--IRL--

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And will that be worth the money it will cost?

How much would it cost for Honohan to extend the scope of his report by a few weeks and include Anglo?

I'm sure it'd be worth it.

Nate

Wolfe Tone

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

How much would it cost for Honohan to extend the scope of his report by a few weeks and include Anglo?

I'm sure it'd be worth it.

Nate

Well Biggins was advocating what very much sounds like a tribunal. FF heads wont be willing to play along, legal action will be required, the senior councils will be loving it.

Although this is kind of shocking, im not shocked..

PeterIanStaker

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Patrick Honohan for a start.

Nate

Well said, do you think the powers that be will try to obstruct/hamstring him though?

AlekSmart

Mr Lenihan has stated that the banking inquiry cannot go beyond a certain date and investigate the actions of the government in regards to the banks.

It is not simply the issue of Prof Honohans Investigation that screams foul here but the dogged insistence by Minister Lenihan on the preservation of Secrecy around many of the events at and subsequent to the infamous Bankers Night.

It has now become a Trademark of Irish Governance that secrecy in all matters be maintained.

Take for example the Toll Road arrangements where another FF Minister,Dempsey, has refused to reveal how much of taxpayers money is being diverted into Toll Franchisee`s accounts in order to make up for the shortfall in traffic counts on the shiny new Toll Motorways.

The Irish political establishment need to become a bit more comfortable with the concept of democracy rather than continually,as recently demonstrated by Alan Dukes,treating the public as fools.

Fools many of us are,but as yet,most of us are not crooks....:)

Nate--IRL--

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Well said, do you think the powers that be will try to obstruct/hamstring him though?

They already have, by limiting the scope of his original report. They haven't extended the remit at all yet.

Nate

Scarab80

I don't understand what is to be gained by extending the timeframe for the commission, the banking report has already stated that there was not considered to be a solvency problem at the time of the guarantee.

When it was discovered that Anglo was insolvent is irrelevant as it fell in the period after the guarantee was issued.

Nate--IRL--

Scarab80 wrote: »

I don't understand what is to be gained by extending the timeframe for the commission, the banking report has already stated that there was not considered to be a solvency problem at the time of the guarantee.

When it was discovered that Anglo was insolvent is irrelevant as it fell in the period after the guarantee was issued.

It would seem that the guarantee was enabled on false information (ie that the banks were actually solvent) It would make sense to me to investigate why this turned out not to be the case and what information lead the minister to bring forth the guarantee.

Nate

Scarab80

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

It would seem that the guarantee was enabled on false information (ie that the banks were actually solvent) It would make sense to me to investigate why this turned out not to be the case and what information lead the minister to bring forth the guarantee.

Nate

That is all covered in the Honohan Banking Report.

Nate--IRL--

Scarab80 wrote: »

That is all covered in the Honohan Banking Report.

The Governments role with regard to the decision making for enabling the Guarantee is not within the report remit IIRC.

Nate

Scarab80

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

The Governments role with regard to the decision making for enabling the Guarantee is not within the report remit IIRC.

Nate

It sure is.

5.33 Although inspectors did identify many of the key governance and procedural weaknesses in a qualitative way, the process-based regulatory model they were adhering to was not designed to provide a quantitative or graduated indication of the magnitude of the risks to solvency and the likelihood that they would materialise. Thus the weakest bank was given a relatively favourable assessment until close to the edge of the cliff, thereby helping to shape the incorrect assessment by many key policy makers at the time that the liquidity problems the bank was experiencing in late 2008 reflected worldwide market failures and not an underlying lack of solvency.

danbohan

Biggins wrote: »

Why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:

Mr Lenihan has stated that the banking inquiry cannot go beyond a certain date and investigate the actions of the government in regards to the banks.
I deeply suspect that they again don't want the full truth to come out.

* http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100705/tuk-banking-inquiry-can-extend-remit-e1cd776.html
* http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0705/banks.html



Dear opposition,
Please, when ye get elected re-open this investigation if it is closed by then or shut down by Fianna Fail and extend its remit to include the highly suspicious actions of many a head of Fianna Fail and their cronies.

These lying schisters deserve to be exposed for the blatant disregard for the public and where they are shovelling our money!

they were exposed , they were found guillty , they will be sentanced at next election , !

Nate--IRL--

Scarab80 wrote: »

It sure is.

That excerpt does not cover the governments decision making process that lead to the guarantee. It states that the inspectors were, lets be very kind, ineffective when informing the government.

We are still no clearer on how the decisions for the exact nature of the guarantee were arrived at, why it guaranteed some things and not others.

Why would we not want to know this?

Nate

Scarab80

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

That excerpt does not cover the governments decision making process that lead to the guarantee. It states that the inspectors were, lets be very kind, ineffective when informing the government.

We are still no clearer on how the decisions for the exact nature of the guarantee were arrived at, why it guaranteed some things and not others.

Why would we not want to know this?

Nate

That is just one of the conclusions, everything else you are looking for is in the report. For all everybody gives out about the banking crisis, it would seem that when the report came out nobody read it.

Why do you think extending the term beyond the guarantee date would answer any of these questions anyway. Clearly all of the relevant decisions were made before the guarantee, anything that was discovered after is irrelevant.

If they were seeking to understand the decisions to set up NAMA and the terms of the recapitalisations of AIB and BOI I think it would be worthwhile but it all seems to be about the nationalisation of Anglo which was an unavoidable course of action following the guarantee.

To me this is just Labour putting up another populist flag based on nothing other than their desire to be another soundbite opposing the banks.

Nate--IRL--

Scarab80 wrote: »

That is just one of the conclusions, everything else you are looking for is in the report. For all everybody gives out about the banking crisis, it would seem that when the report came out nobody read it.

Why do you think extending the term beyond the guarantee date would answer any of these questions anyway. Clearly all of the relevant decisions were made before the guarantee, anything that was discovered after is irrelevant.

If they were seeking to understand the decisions to set up NAMA and the terms of the recapitalisations of AIB and BOI I think it would be worthwhile but it all seems to be about the nationalisation of Anglo which was an unavoidable course of action following the guarantee.

To me this is just Labour putting up another populist flag based on nothing other than their desire to be another soundbite opposing the banks.

Reading it now, I stand corrected, I guess Endagate distracted some of us from more important things

Nate

galwayrush

Why not let the C.A.B. investigate>?

simonj

Iceland has already completed their investigation with the appointment of Eva Joly, a Norwegian born French judge with an outstanding history investigating corruption by politicians and vested business interests.

Her work investigating corruption is impressive, despite death threats, she has uncovered several cases of fraud and corruption.

We have seen the results of the Tribunals arranged by the Irish Government, little truth, little accountability, few prosecutions and all of this done in a protracted and costly manner.

To get to the truth, what is needed is someone like Joly who should set her own framework reference points and timeline.

Perhaps with Shane Ross who knows his stuff, that is the only way anyone will ever be held to account.

Otherwise it will be tribunal groundhog day

We are going to pay in the region of 30Bn for Anglo alone, we are entitled to know why, and who is responsible

Wolfe Tone

What about those who will deny access, interviews etc? Court days beckon.

paddyland

Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan has said there is no reason for a commission of inquiry to investigate the political handling of the financial crisis.

Well I'm sorry, Mr. Minister, but as a public representative, purportedly representing my best interests in a purportedly democratic state, there is every reason for such an investigation.

I have been royally f*cked up by this financial crisis, I have to pay for this f*ck up ontop of my own personal financial crises whether I like it or not, and I bloody well want to know who f*cked me up, what part the Fianna Fáil government had to play in that, and whether or not as a result, the Fianna Fáil party is a viable ongoing organisation.

Your government is already discredited, and to foist lame coverups at this stage only reinforces the belief that the entire Fianna Fáil organisation is a corrupt and subversive influence on decent, honest society in this country.

doctorwu

The reason they will not allow an investigation into 28th of Sept, what was the best advice for guaranteeing Anglo, Permanent,.They Will not say who gave them this "best advice available". This is where the charge of "Finiacial Treason" lies.

Wolfe Tone

To hear some people you would think FF messed stuff up on purpose....

paddyland

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

To hear some people you would think FF messed stuff up on purpose....

Not on purpose, no. But messing up is a direct result of continuously questionable and corrupt actions. It would be great if one could be corrupt without consequences. Alas for Fianna Fáil, it doesn't work that way. So answers, please. Who messed up, and why?

Wolfe Tone

Sheer incompetence. I doubt the opposition will improve on that.

expectationlost

Biggins wrote: »

Why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:


Dear opposition,
Please, when ye get elected re-open this investigation if it is closed by then or shut down by Fianna Fail and extend its remit to include the highly suspicious actions of many a head of Fianna Fail and their cronies.

if fine gael got elected now they'd drop the investigation

expectationlost

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Sheer incompetence. I doubt the opposition will improve on that.

it was deliberate!

its about the setting up the regulation to be weak and keep its blinkers on

Wolfe Tone

expectationlost wrote: »

it was deliberate!

Ah i doubt that. Why would they want to go out, wreck everything and get chucked off of the Gravy train?

paddyland

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Sheer incompetence. I doubt the opposition will improve on that.

I disagree. Patrick Neary was deliberately chosen for the financial regulator's office, to take one example. They wanted the right guy in there, who would keep his mouth shut and look where he was told to look. It may have been a form of incompetence, but it was a deliberate action, just like everything that was done during the Bertie and Biffo years, leading up to the crisis we are in now. They did what they did deliberately, they hoped they wouldn't get caught out, and the longer the game lasted, the safer they felt, and the further they pushed the envelope.

Like the child who took a tiny nibble from the forbidden cookie, and another tiny nibble, hoping it wouldn't be noticed. Until suddenly, half the cookie was gone. In Fianna Fáil's case, they ate the whole cookie, and now they are getting sick on the floor. It's gone too far to cover up now. Answers.

Wolfe Tone

I have no faith in Enda Kenny etc....
Remember, the same back room staff will be there. Ever see "Yes Minister"? We need a complete overhaul of the political system.

paddyland

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I have no faith in Enda Kenny etc....
Remember, the same back room staff will be there. Ever see "Yes Minister"? We need a complete overhaul of the political system.

Now that's an entirely different statement, and yes, I do agree with that. But hand in hand with an overhaul of the political system, we need the dismantling of the Fianna Fáil organisation, because no matter what system is put in place, Fianna Fáil will use and abuse it to their own party ends. Fianna Fáil exists purely for it's own gratification, and that works against any and all efforts to create a balanced society. Investigation, revelation, and relegation. Fianna Fáil need to be rooted out in their entirety, from government, from opposition, from the whole political equation. They are a cancer, good for nothing only sucking the good out of the country.

Wolfe Tone

paddyland wrote: »

Now that's an entirely different statement, and yes, I do agree with that. But hand in hand with an overhaul of the political system, we need the dismantling of the Fianna Fáil organisation, because no matter what system is put in place, Fianna Fáil will use and abuse it to their own party ends. Fianna Fáil exists purely for it's own gratification, and that works against any and all efforts to create a balanced society. Investigation, revelation, and relegation. Fianna Fáil need to be rooted out in their entirety, from government, from opposition, from the whole political equation. They are a cancer, good for nothing only sucking the good out of the country.

There are some very fine hardworking individuals in FF.

But I get were you are coming from.

expectationlost

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Ah i doubt that. Why would they want to go out, wreck everything and get chucked off of the Gravy train?

well said paddyland they were trying to surf a wave never ending wave, it was deliberate ideological gamble.

Mike 1972

paddyland wrote: »

Now that's an entirely different statement, and yes, I do agree with that. But hand in hand with an overhaul of the political system, we need the dismantling of the Fianna Fáil organisation, because no matter what system is put in place, Fianna Fáil will use and abuse it to their own party ends. Fianna Fáil exists purely for it's own gratification, and that works against any and all efforts to create a balanced society. Investigation, revelation, and relegation. Fianna Fáil need to be rooted out in their entirety, from government, from opposition, from the whole political equation. They are a cancer, good for nothing only sucking the good out of the country.

Agree with a lot of what youre saying but the only way we would be able to achieve what you advocate would be to make Fianna Fáil an illegal organisation.

Tempting though such an idea might be it doesnt look very good if youre trying to convince people that its still a democratic country

Shea O'Meara

We need a criminal investigation not a 'would you mind appearing?' talk-in.
If the laws don't exist, create them. Who could block the creation of a law which make a person culpaple for knowingly endangering the public finances for personal gain, be it for political or personally financial reasons (or both).
We need jail time or even bankcrupt guilty parties which would amuse me greatly on the poetic justice side of things.
When asking what's the point? We must remember beyond the numbers people have and are suffering, least of all those who are responsible.
All any pro FF'er seems to have to offer on the issue is 'I wouldn't trust Kenny etc. to do any better.' That's not the issue and not relevant. Any decent public servant from any party should want an investigation into every aspect of this unless of course they have something to hide. The only progress on this in my view is Cowen's admission that the Lehman Brothers collapse didn't help but we were f***ed anyway. It's not even a begining.

Einhard

Has any government in history established an inquiryy into their own actions whilst still in office? IMO, unless there's active wrongdoing suspected, then there's no need for such an investigation and the call for one is just playing politics, nothing more.

Shea O'Meara

Einhard wrote: »

Has any government in history established an inquiryy into their own actions whilst still in office? IMO, unless there's active wrongdoing suspected, then there's no need for such an investigation and the call for one is just playing politics, nothing more.

Not to my knowledge, and yes, not sure where you've been but some people believe in and suspect wrongdoing, to put it mildly.
Playing politics IMO is sitting on the sidelines and not vesting any worth into the crime (in my view) from either angle only to comment, 'sure lets move on'. That's fine, but it's passengers who allow this kind of thing to happens and doom us to the repetition.
'Playing politics' is a sound bite bull**** term used to pretty much tell people who don't go with the flow and simply ask questions to 'go do something to themselves'.

MrDarcy

Biggins wrote: »

Why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:

You should be, the government undergo a very extensive investigation once every five years. Unfortunately those doing the analysis on their achievements are the ones who are to blame for the mess we are in. We have sown what we have reaped in this country. We elect assholes yet expect sound governance???

Elevator

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I have no faith in Enda Kenny etc....
Remember, the same back room staff will be there. Ever see "Yes Minister"? We need a complete overhaul of the political system.

they're all rotten to the core and it was Lisbon 2.0 that told me that, I had mr kenny approach me on shop st galway as I sat amonst friends outside a coffee shop and we all told him nicely we didn't want his pro Lisbon flyer to which he told us in a very snidey way to "enjoy the sunshine while it lasts!!"

we crumpled up his propaganda materials and threw them at him

the snakeyness of the whole lot of them would make ya sick, I would love to rip thru the dail while they're on their 2 months + holidays!!!!

rotten corrupt bastards

AlekSmart

The reason they will not allow an investigation into 28th of Sept, what was the best advice for guaranteeing Anglo, Permanent,.They Will not say who gave them this "best advice available". This is where the charge of "Finiacial Treason" lies.

Doctorwu is absolutely 100% dead on here.

We do not actually need a full blown enquiry,tribunal or inquisition into the greater Irish Banking system right now...that can be done at leisure going forward.

However,what we do need IMMEDIATELY,is a full forensic account of the ,as yet, totally secret occurrences of the 28th Sept meetings.

Only today we have RTE TV News revealing the current mad flap of spinnery which attempts to portray NAMA as being capable of showing €1 Billion profit.

Yet we also had the spectacle of the Chief Executive of NAMA boss Brendan MacDonagh revealing how the Bankers essentially lied to him and his agency from the outset of their remit.

This "economy of truth" principle was evidently carried forward from the fateful 28th Sept meetings when the bankers played clever and waltzed rings around our docile Government.

Once the smooth besuited Banking elite had secured the high ground early on,the rest was easy,as is currently being proven with every phrase uttered by Brian Cowen.

We need to know what was said and by whom at that fateful meeting...anything less is treasonable !

Nijmegen

We don't need another long arsed tribunal. We need a special branch of police and a special court for dealing with corruption in the state. They need to be insulated from the state and watched by the Gardai ombudsman. They need to get into the weeds, root these people out, and deal with them in speedy, efficient trials.

They need to bang up anyone with a poor memory for contempt unless their doctor comes along with a brain scan and a good excuse.

They need to lock these guys up in tent city prisons, in orange boiler suits, and we ought to see them chain ganged and sweeping the streets of the country, the streets that belong to those of us who have suffered most and helped them out of their hole.

They ought to be made to sweep the streets around Kildare street once a month, to remind the people in power that we, the people, who own this country, who pay for it, are watching.

...But I couldn't see the opposition supporting that, because one day they'd be in power, and we'd likely come looking at them....

limklad

The best way to Investigate FF is to Call for immediate Elections. We can decide then, if we find them innocent or take the Full blame for the recession.

They will have to face us sooner or later. Time is running out 24th May 2012. That two years maximum until they have to face us by law.

I have no doubt we be in the same mess then if not worst by then.

Biggins

Well now the good news...

Bank probe widened to cover Anglo rescue plan

Thursday July 08 2010

THE controversial bailout of Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide will be examined by a top-level inquiry for the first time after the Government finally caved in to pressure last night.

The Government had previously refused to extend the investigation beyond the September 2008 period.
But in a significant U-turn, the banking inquiry will now have the powers to investigate events that could potentially embarrass the Government.

A new Commission of Investigation, which begins in a few weeks, will investigate:

* Why Anglo was not allowed to fold in September rather than getting a guarantee and then relieving billions in capital from the Government.
* Why the Government decided to protect investors holding highly risky bonds in Anglo.
* The back-to-back deposits organised by Anglo and Irish Life & Permanent in 2008.
* What regulators and the Government knew about reckless lending practices carried out by Michael Fingleton at Irish Nationwide.
* How ex-Anglo chief Sean FitzPatrick hid €87m in loans he had with the bank.
* The building up of a hidden stake in Anglo by businessman Sean Quinn and attempts by Anglo to sell some of this stake to a so-called 'golden circle'.

The investigation is expected to shed light on what the country's main banks were up to in the months following the introduction of the government guarantee.
Earlier this week, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan indicated he was willing to extend the remit of the banking inquiry to cover the nationalisation of Anglo.

The Government continues to insist that the Department of Finance's political handling of the banking crisis did not need to be examined by the commission of investigation.

The new head of the commission, who will be an international expert, is to be named before the weekend.
A separate independent review of the Department of Finance should be completed by the end of this year.
The review will cover a 10-year period and examine the systems, structures and processes used by the department in providing advice to the Government.
The Cabinet approved the changes to the terms of reference of the investigation at its weekly meeting -- but the Government chose to keep it quiet until yesterday.
That decision meant Taoiseach Brian Cowen escaped questioning on the scope of the investigation in his final appearance at the Dail before the summer break.

In a statement, the Department of Finance said the commission would now be in a position to examine matters "relating to corporate governance and risk management in each of the banks covered by the Government's guarantee up to the date of the Government's decision to nationalise Anglo Irish Bank", which happened on January 15, 2009.
A separate inquiry will be undertaken by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance and the Public Service, which will look specifically at the lessons to be learned on economic policy.
The Government will today tell the committee to report back to the Dail and Seanad by the end of October 2010.
Fine Gael finance spokesman Michael Noonan last night welcomed the extension of the investigation, but he called on Mr Lenihan to extend it further to include his and department officials' handling of the crisis.
"It is now clear that the minister, on at least two occasions, made very serious policy decisions, which were based on false information provided by the banks," Mr Noonan said.
"He didn't know the extent of Anglo Irish Bank's indebtedness when he covered all their liabilities with the bank guarantee. And I believe he was as surprised as the rest of us that at least €22bn is required from taxpayers to bail out Anglo."

Labour Party finance spokesperson Joan Burton said it would have been "impossible" to investigate the crisis without including the period after the bank guarantee.

RUINED

Meanwhile, Sean FitzPatrick is now effectively financially ruined after a crucial meeting with creditors in Dublin yesterday. Mr FitzPatrick owes the bank €110m.
During the meeting, Anglo made it clear it would not support a private deal proposed by its former chairman and chief executive.
But while other banks voted in favour of the deal yesterday, Anglo refused, setting the scene for a court hearing on Monday when the former banker will be officially bankrupted.

The hour-long meeting was described as business-like, with Anglo representatives barely speaking during the proceedings.
Mr FitzPatrick's assets are now going to be pursued by his creditors, including his family home and his Anglo pension.
His wife owns half the family home in Greystones, which should prevent the bank selling the property in the short term. Instead they can take control of Mr FitzPatrick's 50pc share.

Sources last night dismissed suggestions Mr FitzPatrick's pension was worth €25m, with the total value believed to be much lower. But with the pension now open to be chased down by creditors, Mr FitzPatrick could be effectively broke, with no income.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bank-probe-widened-to-cover-anglo-rescue-plan-2250412.html

I'm sceptical as to if we will ever know the full truth or if full disclosure will happen from FF but its a proper start now.