Why the animosity over the dog breeding bill?

RATM

Ive just read over the general outline of the dog breeding bill which is causing so much consternation amongst backbench FF'ers and will most likely continue to do so next week.
Details here http://www.greenparty.ie/news/latest_news/dog_breeding_establishments_bill_2009_published

I can't seem to get my head around it. It is an unregulated industry where there appears to be no records of geneology of dogs bred. There appears to be unscrupulous operators running puppy farms which are far from nice places for dogs to be bred. The Bill will introduce a regime of random inspections to ensure minimum rules regarding breeding would be adhered to- just the same way farmers might have to put up with inspections of their livestock from the Dept of Agriculture.

The dog breeders complain about having to pay an annual fee to be part of this scheme but I don't really buy that for one minute, especially as puppies are trading hands for up to a thousand euro a piece- such a charge would envitably just be passed onto the customer.

So I was chatting with friends down the pub last night and a couple reckoned there are darker forces at play here. For one it is apparently the case than an English Breeder wouldn't touch an Irish bred dog with a barge pole. The (supposed) reason for this is because in-breeding in Ireland is rampant and widespread. And then there's the greyhound industry which can be a big moneyspinner for those involved- inbreeding happens here too and there are those who don't want to see an end to it as it could mean certain greyhound stables lose their virtual monopoly on producing winning dogs.

Now I don't claim to know everything about the dog breeding industry and am hoping others can enlighten me (and others) as to why this bill is seeing so much backbench FF animosity (ironically the Bill was sponsored by FF in the first place, not by the Greens).
I just don't get it- why are these backbenchers making such a fuss over a dog breeding bill when they said sweet dam all about NAMA, bank guarantee scheme, medical card fiasco, cervical cancer vaccine, etc, etc?

Are there darker forces at play ?

rockmongrel

Seems to be another industry that feels they're above the law, as they have been so for some time. No sympathy for them.

ART6

RATM wrote: »

Ive just read over the general outline of the dog breeding bill which is causing so much consternation amongst backbench FF'ers and will most likely continue to do so next week.
Details here http://www.greenparty.ie/news/latest_news/dog_breeding_establishments_bill_2009_published

I can't seem to get my head around it. It is an unregulated industry where there appears to be no records of geneology of dogs bred. There appears to be unscrupulous operators running puppy farms which are far from nice places for dogs to be bred. The Bill will introduce a regime of random inspections to ensure minimum rules regarding breeding would be adhered to- just the same way farmers might have to put up with inspections of their livestock from the Dept of Agriculture.

The dog breeders complain about having to pay an annual fee to be part of this scheme but I don't really buy that for one minute, especially as puppies are trading hands for up to a thousand euro a piece- such a charge would envitably just be passed onto the customer.

So I was chatting with friends down the pub last night and a couple reckoned there are darker forces at play here. For one it is apparently the case than an English Breeder wouldn't touch an Irish bred dog with a barge pole. The (supposed) reason for this is because in-breeding in Ireland is rampant and widespread. And then there's the greyhound industry which can be a big moneyspinner for those involved- inbreeding happens here too and there are those who don't want to see an end to it as it could mean certain greyhound stables lose their virtual monopoly on producing winning dogs.

Now I don't claim to know everything about the dog breeding industry and am hoping others can enlighten me (and others) as to why this bill is seeing so much backbench FF animosity (ironically the Bill was sponsored by FF in the first place, not by the Greens).
I just don't get it- why are these backbenchers making such a fuss over a dog breeding bill when they said sweet dam all about NAMA, bank guarantee scheme, medical card fiasco, cervical cancer vaccine, etc, etc?

Are there darker forces at play ?

The darker forces at play are the Green tail wagging the FF dog and pushing through what to many seems a waste of time and resources given the many more serious problems in Ireland that the government should be concentrating on. There seems the be a growing irritation in the FF backbenches with the Green's apparent obsession with counting bats and frogs, and now this and the stag hunting ban, since the Greens loss of public support threatens all of their jobs.

Having said that, personally I feel that the dog breeding industry should be regulated, and stag hunting with dogs is not the widespread rural activity that many claim. It is irrelevant but probably not much different to breeding any other animal for slaughter except that it is practised by very few people. The question is, is this an appropriate time to be dealing with these issues, and is it a case of the Greens desperation to push through their pet ambitions before the government collapses and they cease to exist as a party.

marco_polo

ART6 wrote: »

The darker forces at play are the Green tail wagging the FF dog and pushing through what to many seems a waste of time and resources given the many more serious problems in Ireland that the government should be concentrating on. There seems the be a growing irritation in the FF backbenches with the Green's apparent obsession with counting bats and frogs, and now this and the stag hunting ban, since the Greens loss of public support threatens all of their jobs.

Having said that, personally I feel that the dog breeding industry should be regulated, and stag hunting with dogs is not the widespread rural activity that many claim. It is irrelevant but probably not much different to breeding any other animal for slaughter except that it is practised by very few people. The question is, is this an appropriate time to be dealing with these issues, and is it a case of the Greens desperation to push through their pet ambitions before the government collapses and they cease to exist as a party.

I keep hearing that we should be 'concentrating on the important issues', but does every single other non economic related legislation really have to cease just because we are in the middle of a recession?

nesf

There was a lot of noise being made by Greyhound breeders because they were under the original form of the legislation but are already regulated through older regulation. This has been fixed and they'll now be exempt from this legislation and the Greyhound bill will be amended to make changes to the regulation of that industry.

Coillte_Bhoy

marco_polo wrote: »

I keep hearing that we should be 'concentrating on the important issues', but does every single other non economic related legislation really have to cease just because we are in the middle of a recession?

Exactly. There are loads of pieces of legislation going through all the time. Cant blame the Greens for this, blame the FF backbench backwoodsmen.

Scofflaw

RATM wrote: »

Ive just read over the general outline of the dog breeding bill which is causing so much consternation amongst backbench FF'ers and will most likely continue to do so next week.
Details here http://www.greenparty.ie/news/latest_news/dog_breeding_establishments_bill_2009_published

I can't seem to get my head around it. It is an unregulated industry where there appears to be no records of geneology of dogs bred. There appears to be unscrupulous operators running puppy farms which are far from nice places for dogs to be bred. The Bill will introduce a regime of random inspections to ensure minimum rules regarding breeding would be adhered to- just the same way farmers might have to put up with inspections of their livestock from the Dept of Agriculture.

The dog breeders complain about having to pay an annual fee to be part of this scheme but I don't really buy that for one minute, especially as puppies are trading hands for up to a thousand euro a piece- such a charge would envitably just be passed onto the customer.

So I was chatting with friends down the pub last night and a couple reckoned there are darker forces at play here. For one it is apparently the case than an English Breeder wouldn't touch an Irish bred dog with a barge pole. The (supposed) reason for this is because in-breeding in Ireland is rampant and widespread. And then there's the greyhound industry which can be a big moneyspinner for those involved- inbreeding happens here too and there are those who don't want to see an end to it as it could mean certain greyhound stables lose their virtual monopoly on producing winning dogs.

Now I don't claim to know everything about the dog breeding industry and am hoping others can enlighten me (and others) as to why this bill is seeing so much backbench FF animosity (ironically the Bill was sponsored by FF in the first place, not by the Greens).
I just don't get it- why are these backbenchers making such a fuss over a dog breeding bill when they said sweet dam all about NAMA, bank guarantee scheme, medical card fiasco, cervical cancer vaccine, etc, etc?

Are there darker forces at play ?

Almost certainly - dog breeding is the kind of activity that important (and wealthy) local Fianna Fáil constituents would be involved with, so the legislation will be treading directly on their particular toes. NAMA and the rest are more generalised. There would be sufficient money and peer pressure available to make a big noise politically, same as for the stag hunting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Cookie_Monster

ART6 wrote: »

The question is, is this an appropriate time to be dealing with these issues.

no its not, but better late than never at this stage.

Wolfe Tone

There seems to be a feeling out there that dog breeding is the domain of wealthy people, not so. Many who breed dogs are relatively poor farmers.

dvpower

They may be poor farmers. If they are, they're well connected poor farmers.

spiralbound

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

There seems to be a feeling out there that dog breeding is the domain of wealthy people, not so. Many who breed dogs are relatively poor farmers.

I was shocked to see an episode of Ear to the Ground, I think, where dog breeding was touted as an alternative form of income for farmers. The farmer proudly showed off his shed with pens of dogs and puppies. There was no mention of socialisation, and when asked about exercise, the farmer said "ah sure we get them out for a half an hour most days, some of them don't even want to come out", or words to that effect.

Is there a list of the requirements the local authoriy has when checking a dog breeding establishment? Or a definition of a 'dog breeding establishment'?

View

ART6 wrote: »

The darker forces at play are the Green tail wagging the FF dog and pushing through what to many seems a waste of time and resources given the many more serious problems in Ireland that the government should be concentrating on.

Excuse the sarcasm, but this FF "The Greens are beating us up" stuff is a load of nonsense. FF is perfectly free to walk away from the Greens anytime they want. True, they'll probably have to face the electorate should they do so, but that shouldn't be a problem for them, should it?

Scofflaw

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

There seems to be a feeling out there that dog breeding is the domain of wealthy people, not so. Many who breed dogs are relatively poor farmers.

And some aren't - many of those who supported Libertas were genuine grassroots activists, some of them quite possibly also poor farmers, but that doesn't mean Declan Ganley and his pals weren't very rich.

There's an article already quoted elsewhere that's apposite:

Last October, the Green Party inserted the Wildlife Bill into the revised programme for government. By the standards of any half-developed European state, it was a tame measure. In January, a "pro-hunting" group, Rural Ireland Says Enough! (Rise!) emerged. With an office in Ashbourne – in the heart of Ward Union territory – and fronted by top PR man Liam Cahill, it was obviously well funded. Cahill had previously worked as PR man for Intel, with Fianna Fáil's David Andrews and with the Labour Party. He doesn't come cheap.

Over the last six months, he brilliantly purported to represent the interests of rural Ireland with a campaign to "mobilise public and political opinion in support of traditional field sports and rural pastimes".

The Nama boys and their fellow hunters were thus transmogrified into saviours of rural Ireland, the last bulwark against the rampaging instincts of the Green party. Apart from the Wildlife Bill, the only other proposal of concern was the Dog Breeding Establishment Bill, which pre-dated the Greens in government, and arose out of recommendations from a group comprising all stakeholders in the dog breeding industry. This was an overdue bill in any half-developed European country, but facts are the enemy of spin. In the hands of Rise!, the breeding bill was another stab from the great Satan of rural Ireland, John Gormley.

I'm sure the poor farmers associated with the campaign aren't paying Liam Cahill - but somebody is.

cordially,
Scofflaw

RATM

Ah the murky waters get a bit clearer- that article in the Tribune quoted by Scofflaw explains a lot. Developers are a mainstay on the Ward Union hunt which might explain where RISE's funds are coming from to pay an expensive PR merchant like Liam Cahill.
It doesn't look to be that RISE is a grassroots organisation whatsoever after that article. Another interesting point is that Shane Cassels, a FF councillor in Meath quoted a survey over the weekend which said that 66% of Meath locals don't want the Ward hunt to take place as it tramples their land, causes hassle they don't need, etc.

Byron85

It can be summed up in one word: misdirection.

The Government and their supporters are becoming increasingly better at it and I expect it to increase exponentially over the next 2 years.

fits

RATM wrote: »

Ah the murky waters get a bit clearer- that article in the Tribune quoted by Scofflaw explains a lot. Developers are a mainstay on the Ward Union hunt which might explain where RISE's funds are coming from to pay an expensive PR merchant like Liam Cahill.
It doesn't look to be that RISE is a grassroots organisation whatsoever after that article. Another interesting point is that Shane Cassels, a FF councillor in Meath quoted a survey over the weekend which said that 66% of Meath locals don't want the Ward hunt to take place as it tramples their land, causes hassle they don't need, etc.

Talk about adding two and two and getting 41 :rolleyes:

RISE is funded by the various bodies it represents including the Hunting Association of Ireland, which is paid subscriptions by its member hunts.

I'm not sure why there is so much animosity over this bill. I think its badly needed myself.

OhNoYouDidn't

I think its actually quite simple. FF are a conservative party with a conservative support base. The Greens are simply changing things in rural Ireland and rural Ireland doesn't like change, regardless of whether its actually in their interests or not. So FF undermine them.

They let the PD's crack on because their legislation was regressive.

Its a broader issue in Ireland. Look at the abuse the broadly left leaning parties get in the media (and on here). Harris can't mention Labour without talking about Stalin ffs. Ireland is a very reactionary and conservative country outside Dublin.

scr123

The Greens are around a good number of years and in the real world I have never ever heard anyone express animosity towards them. To me its a bloody shame that we actually have a political party that aims to protect the enviroment. Its been said already its the ABFF who denigrate the Greens but thats to be expected from losers. I have great admiration at how the Greens are sticking in government during this period of economic turmoil. Fervent hope is they stay in power till 2012 to make more progress in regenerating the economy. Stil can see in mind John Gormley standing in the Dail in the days after local elections facing the taunts of the mickey mouse Opposition and saying " Its when I look over there I know why I will stay over here"

goose2005

ART6 wrote: »

The darker forces at play are the Green tail wagging the FF dog and pushing through what to many seems a waste of time and resources given the many more serious problems in Ireland that the government should be concentrating on. There seems the be a growing irritation in the FF backbenches with the Green's apparent obsession with counting bats and frogs, and now this and the stag hunting ban, since the Greens loss of public support threatens all of their jobs.

Having said that, personally I feel that the dog breeding industry should be regulated, and stag hunting with dogs is not the widespread rural activity that many claim. It is irrelevant but probably not much different to breeding any other animal for slaughter except that it is practised by very few people. The question is, is this an appropriate time to be dealing with these issues, and is it a case of the Greens desperation to push through their pet ambitions before the government collapses and they cease to exist as a party.

Isn't the Oireachtas about to adjourn for 10 weeks or something? And btw if we stop "counting bats and frogs" they'll die out.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

There seems to be a feeling out there that dog breeding is the domain of wealthy people, not so. Many who breed dogs are relatively poor farmers.

So what? Poor people can abuse animals too.

Amtmann

Greyhounds are a MAJOR part of country life, particularly in places like Tipperary. A huge number of people own greyhounds, mostly for racing. In fairness, they generally are extremely well cared for up to the point of sale. There is a huge amount of attendant cruelty involved in the greyhound industry though, mainly revolving around the killing of live rabbits to 'blood' the dogs. Rabbits are often bought from local catchers and have a twine tied around their legs, which is held at a length of 3m by the greyhound owner. The hounds are then allowed to tear the rabbits to pieces. This is an extremely common practice, and it was filmed at a schooling track by an undercover BBC crew in a hole of a village (Donaskeigh) in South Tipp in the early 90s. There is a huge amount of under-the-table money invloved in greyhounds too, with English customers frequently paying thousands of pounds in cash for a single dog. Any interference in greyhounds by the government is deemed unwelcome. Mattie McGrath is a hero in South Tipp now - an enormous number of his constituents (of whom I am unfortunately one) are obsessed with greyhounds (though I certainly am not; quite the opposite, actually). He probably is too. :rolleyes:

gurramok

Its just a shame that the dog breeding industry was not regulated until now, its the 21st century and animal welfare here is the laughing stock of Europe.

Stheno

Furet wrote: »

Greyhounds are a MAJOR part of country life, particularly in places like Tipperary. A huge number of people own greyhounds, mostly for racing. In fairness, they generally are extremely well cared for up to the point of sale. There is a huge amount of attendant cruelty involved in the greyhound industry though, mainly revolving around the killing of live rabbits to 'blood' the dogs.

That's the tip of the iceberg imo in the greyhound industry, thousands of dogs are bred each year, and many are disposed of as they don't "make the grade"

Regulating dog breeding here and introducing standards for breeding and tracing dogs imo is only a good thing.

Amtmann

nouggatti wrote: »

That's the tip of the iceberg imo in the greyhound industry, thousands of dogs are bred each year, and many are disposed of as they don't "make the grade"

Regulating dog breeding here and introducing standards for breeding and tracing dogs imo is only a good thing.

Those that don't make the grade are generally shot in the head or put down.

Essexboy

ART6 wrote: »

The darker forces at play are the Green tail wagging the FF dog and pushing through what to many seems a waste of time and resources given the many more serious problems in Ireland that the government should be concentrating on. There seems the be a growing irritation in the FF backbenches with the Green's apparent obsession with counting bats and frogs, and now this and the stag hunting ban, since the Greens loss of public support threatens all of their jobs.

Having said that, personally I feel that the dog breeding industry should be regulated, and stag hunting with dogs is not the widespread rural activity that many claim. It is irrelevant but probably not much different to breeding any other animal for slaughter except that it is practised by very few people. The question is, is this an appropriate time to be dealing with these issues, and is it a case of the Greens desperation to push through their pet ambitions before the government collapses and they cease to exist as a party.

The people who say the Dail should concentrate on economic matters had no problem with time being wasted on legislation for Blasphemy and the sale of Mass Cards (it did not make a blind bit of difference to the sale of pre-signed cards).
And How many of them will object to the Oireachtas taking a 3-month holiday?