Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Self esteem; coaching or counselling?

  • 02-07-2010 1:47am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭


    Hi everyone,

    I'm just wondering what are peoples opinions this. Outwardly, i've a very decisive, confident individual - certainly no walk over, argumentative, friendly, funny.

    My problems is that i suffer from huge lack of confidence/self esteem issues about how i look. Its pretty crippling sometimes.

    I'm thinking of doing something about this, and i'm wondering what is best for this type of issue? For instance, i want advise and help, and some sort of proactive input - thats why i feel that counselling maybe of limited use (because, in general, they don't actively give advice). I want someone who'll listen but who'll also give me advise on how to improve. That's why i was thinking that a 'life coach' session might be more appropriate. Does anyone know anything about these type of coaches?

    The counselling doesn't necessarily make much sense to me, because i know why i suffer from low self esteem, it doesn't need to be teased out - what i need is the tools, suggestions and advice to combat it...

    Any tips/help appreciated!


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    this does not really answer your question, but i was recently looking into self esteem and this book was recommended to me:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Low-Self-Esteem-Melanie-Fennell/dp/1849010684/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278060082&sr=8-1

    i know that there is a huge amount of self help information out there on self esteem and much of it is rubbish or just trying to take your money.

    In terms of counselling, you might consider Cognitive Behaviour Therapy. This should provide you wiht some tools to tackle low self esteem.

    Best of luck


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭freakmagnet


    Thanks SE - i've just seen your reply. Thanks for the tips, i'll certainly have a look at both your suggestions. Of course anybody else with any suggestions, feel free!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭turbot


    I could be described as a "LifeCoach" and my core skillset / training is in hypnosis and NLP.

    What you might not realise is that it's possible for you to perceive yourself differently.

    Most people can relate to the idea of feeling better about themelves when they dress up for a formal occassion, like a Debs or a Ball. There is often a noticeable difference between when they apply their best efforts to look their best, and when they look normal. They might for example, feel 50% more attractive on a special occassion...

    So it's worth realising if you can relate to this, that 50% is a way of understanding how it's possible to feel different. This, taken as an experience from the inside out, hints at what's possible when you change yourself image.

    You can use hypnosis / nlp to further amplify that 50% to something much much stronger as that 50% difference is only your internal scale based upon your experience... and using various psychological techniques, you can permanently increase that something beyond what you've currently experienced. Eg - what would it feel like if you felt 500% more attractive?

    I suggest that you take action on two fronts:

    a) "Outer Game" - go to the gym and read some books on exercise / nutrition and get your body into better shape. Dress more fashionably... Get your haircut by someone who can make you look good, etc, so you make the most of yourself as you are. Often when you take care of yourself, you feel good about yourself.

    b) "Inner Game" - use modern psychological techniques and processes to progressively enhance how you feel about yourself, how you see yourself, how you relate to yourself and how you understand the World.

    A good way to start tweaking your Inner Game is:

    1) Read a book called PsychoCybernetics, by Maxwell Maltz, which is about changing your self image

    2) Paul McKenna's book, Instant Confidence, has loads of great exercises that you can use, that again will help. Do the exercises. Pay attention to what works and do it more. If you change the submodalities of how you see yourself, and do this right, it will have a big effect on you.

    3) You could take a photo of yourself (on a good day) and post it on hotornot.com. You might be surprised that more people see you as more attractive than you see yourself. Your critical self talk may actually be a kind of big misunderstanding... and may not relate to how others actually see you.

    4) It's worth redefining how you make sense of how you look also, and the part it plays in society. There's some great material available online, for example some of DavidDeAngelo's material is very useful for men on this front... giving a better way of understanding patterns of interaction that encourage attraction. If you consider yourself to be quite good looking, but you're confident you can have a great relationship with people you feel attracted too... life is sweet.

    Once you've educated yourself, and gone as far as you can under you own auspices, then you could go see a skillful hypnotist / nlper, who could bring you further in a good direction.

    I encourage you to do your research carefully on who you choose to work with re: lifecoaches / nlp'ers / hypnotists and work with people you deem as skillful as possible and from whom you get a good sense, so be thorough and trust your instincts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭freakmagnet


    Hi Turbot - thanks for your reply - appreciate taking the time.

    Now, if i could just ask a couple of questions, just to clarify a few things!

    Well, the outer game is not in question - every body likes to look their best. As it relates to me, i'm actually quite slim - but i've joined a gym just to tone a bit. I've also, while i think my fashion sense is quite good, i'm probably a bit too practical sometimes rather than fashionable - i.e i'll wear an older, not very flattering jacket because its waterproof, rather than a nice jacket that i have (because its not waterproof), but i digress..

    Its the 'inner game' that i have problems with for a few reasons! If you don't mind i'll 'pick' on a few things that you say (and which i often hear) just for argument sake and to see if maybe, sometime, in the future, i'll 'get it'.

    So what if you begin to see yourself differently? What if, objectively, you do not fit will with this era's accepted vision of beauty? I mean, (i'll talk in the first person), will i be basing my new confidence on a lie? That is, i may begin to feel beautiful and attractive, and i'm fantastic etc etc - but essentially nothing has changed. I mean, the reason i have low self esteem is because i'm unattractive - not because i feel unattractive. I think most people, at this stage, would interject, and say (which does tend to p!ss me off, i must admit!) - 'its all about CONFIDENCE, its all confidence, women just love confidence'. I have huge problems with this! While women might very well take a more holistic view in terms of what they find attractive (looks, personality, confidence, etc etc) - i refuse to accept that women are that dissimilar to men - we are all human! Physical attraction definitely plays a huge part! Maybe less so for women.. but then again 99 is LESS than 100, it doesn't mean its not very important! In fact, i am the proof, that physical attraction is important - because women aren't interested in me. Is it chicken and egg? Maybe they aren't interested in me because i'm not confident - i disagree, because i'm a people person, i'm sociable person and a good conversationalist, thats gets on with pretty much anyone - and so, it can be safely taken as fact that, due to my fairly advanced social skills, i would clock at least basic and/or fleeting interest.

    People will cite the example of a very ordinary friend that has oodles of confidence who women fall over, and vice versa. But its not the norm. Good Looking men have the confidence to attract - because its win win - the good looks gives them confidence, and confidence enhances their looks, and validation of their good looks and confidence gives even more confidence! Generally speaking, why would an unattractive man have confidence in the way he looks? And to tinker with this - to give him confidence of a more attractive man via therapy or coaching, is that not just building him up for an even harder fall? i.e nothing has changed really - he might get a slight bit more interest from the opposite sex (or whatever preference) due to the actual confidence; but it still does not change him into some sort of male model. Essentially it will always come back to the fact that he is physically unattractive and so is less likely to succeed (as much as he would like) socially, in work, or whatever. It'll always come back to the fact that he is unattractive and his level of confidence will match this.

    Also, i'm wondering, with too much therapy or hypnosis.. is there a chance of throwing out the baby with the bath water? For instance, i like the way i am with a lot of things, i like the fact that i'm sensitive to others feelings, that i'm easy to talk to and i don't appear 'full of myself'. Could therapy, hypnosis or coaching, have unforeseen consequences of changing things that you actually like about yourself (with out you even knowing)? That is, turn one into an over confident, full of himself type (without even the looks to back it up!!!!)?

    Yes, i do go on! But i'm really interested in the 'confidence' thing and why an unattractive should feel confident, and if they do happen to achieve it, bar feeling somewhat better about themselves, what real difference it actually makes... Lets take it for granted that i do appreciate the benefits of a bit more confidence - both on how one perceives himself, and how others perceive the person - but allowing for that, i'm not sure i 'get' how this confidence is sustainable in the long term if the foundation for this confidence is so shaky (i.e nothing tangible has changed; still unattractive)

    For the sake of debate, lets presume, there is independent verification of lack of attractiveness.

    Your thoughts most welcome :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,048 ✭✭✭✭Snowie


    from my experence Coucilling/theripy would be better then life coaching.

    why because you learn to pay attetnion and deal with your emotions, its aimed at you not 50 other people.

    Youle be 5 times strong fromt he councilling then the, coasching, and able to deal with things more objectivly...


    which will bring ona better sence of self worth as more rounded way of saying the other important bits...

    and Op i was exactry like you were beleave me councilling is the better option :)

    good luck


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭jurgenscarl


    Before you consider the life coaching root - the life coaching route will work wonders for you - you should first go see a counsellor.

    You are carrying a lot of hurt and emotional trauma probably from a life time of rejection and self-doubt.

    This has been the pattern of your life since you were a child.

    You have to break that pattern at all costs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭turbot


    Well, the outer game is not in question - every body likes to look their best. As it relates to me, i'm actually quite slim - but i've joined a gym just to tone a bit. I've also, while i think my fashion sense is quite good, i'm probably a bit too practical sometimes rather than fashionable - i.e i'll wear an older, not very flattering jacket because its waterproof, rather than a nice jacket that i have (because its not waterproof), but i digress..

    Keep in mind that you are judging yourself based upon your own critera on this front. Your own way of judging yourself may not correlate with how others see you... because they have different ways of seeing the World because they are different people.

    A popular suggestion (with merit) is to find a girl who dresses fabulously, and get her to go through your wardrobe (and maybe even shopping with you) and give you suggestions about what will make you look the best. You might discover vast differences of opinion between what you think looks good, and what she perceives as attractive. Think of this as a type of calibration...

    You can also improve other senses... i.e. do voice training so you sound better, wear great aftershave, study dancing / martial arts so you move gracefully.
    So what if you begin to see yourself differently? What if, objectively, you do not fit will with this era's accepted vision of beauty? I mean, (i'll talk in the first person), will i be basing my new confidence on a lie?

    If you understand the nature of subjective reality (and how it can be changed) apparent "truth" is in the eyes of the beholder.

    If you see yourself in the best possible light, and respond to how you look in ways where, you're sure you look attractive, and you fancy yourself, you make it much easier for someone else to find you attractive.

    There is massive variance about what constitutes a persons accepted vision of beauty. Some girls like waif-like men, others bodybuilders, others rugby players, others bald guys.... etc. Some like olive skin... others wear makeup to appear to be whiter... Hundreds of years ago, it was considered attractive and healthy to be very overweight.

    When you say "objectively", it can confuse you, unless you take into account your perceptual process underlying that very statement.

    If you instead say "based upon how I understand the World and perceive the perceptions of society, I believe that I don't fit into the objective visions of beauty in modern society" then at least you have the chance to realise that you may be wrong. If you have any questions about the nature of "cognitive biases" that skew perception, consider how many awful kareoke singers or x-factor entrants think they're great...? In the same way, some gorgeous women think they're ugly.
    That is, i may begin to feel beautiful and attractive, and i'm fantastic etc etc - but essentially nothing has changed. I mean, the reason i have low self esteem is because i'm unattractive - not because i feel unattractive.

    Lets differentiate the way you look from how attractive you are, whilst acknowledging they are related. If you've ever met someone who looked good, but you found to be unattractive, and if you ever met someone who didn't look great, but you found quite attractive, you might realise that there is more to it than just what meets the eye.
    I think most people, at this stage, would interject, and say (which does tend to p!ss me off, i must admit!) - 'its all about CONFIDENCE, its all confidence, women just love confidence'. I have huge problems with this! While women might very well take a more holistic view in terms of what they find attractive (looks, personality, confidence, etc etc) - i refuse to accept that women are that dissimilar to men - we are all human!

    Women are dissimilar to men. More men like the colour blue than the colour pink. Young girls like dolls, whereas guys like action figures and toy cars. Women do see the World through different eyes, so much so, that as guys, we can only guestimate their perceptions. Guys are less likely to feel wonderful when they find the perfect pair of shoes than girls.

    So your problem is that you think you know so much about women that you're able to judge, on their behalf, what they like. However, if you can't pick the perfect pair of shoes / handbag to make a girl feel great... maybe you misunderstand the quality of your perceptions and your generalisations about how women can respond to you are off base. To prove this to yourself, read Vogue, and ask yourself, how much stuff you would change in that magazine if it were up to you.
    Physical attraction definitely plays a huge part! Maybe less so for women.. but then again 99 is LESS than 100, it doesn't mean its not very important! In fact, i am the proof, that physical attraction is important - because women aren't interested in me. Is it chicken and egg? Maybe they aren't interested in me because i'm not confident - i disagree, because i'm a people person, i'm sociable person and a good conversationalist, thats gets on with pretty much anyone - and so, it can be safely taken as fact that, due to my fairly advanced social skills, i would clock at least basic and/or fleeting interest.

    One of my friends had his face slashed with a razor. The muscles on that side of his face have never fully recovered. He has a 4 inch scar, and his eye droops slightly and when he talks, one side of his face is more animated than the other. Fortunately, he has a good attitude. He has a girlfriend who, to my eyes, is fairly gorgeous.

    There is a difference between being a good conversationalist, and someone who understands female psychology in a way where you can create and share great experiences with them, and trigger attraction.

    What you hadn't said in your message is all the things you've tried - eg. if you've been on fifty dates, or if you've asked 200 girls to go on dates, etc. Maybe you need to be more pro-active, and most likely, you'd benefit from learning about what women respond to vis-a-ve attraction. A great place to start is by reading "The Game" by Neil Strauss.
    People will cite the example of a very ordinary friend that has oodles of confidence who women fall over, and vice versa. But its not the norm. Good Looking men have the confidence to attract - because its win win - the good looks gives them confidence, and confidence enhances their looks, and validation of their good looks and confidence gives even more confidence!

    This is only one aspect of the self-reinforcing processes that sculpt an attitude.

    Have you tried posting a picture on hotornot.com ?
    Generally speaking, why would an unattractive man have confidence in the way he looks?

    Why not? Are the reality police going to come along and arrest you if you violate your notion of the consensus on confidence and good looks?
    And to tinker with this - to give him confidence of a more attractive man via therapy or coaching, is that not just building him up for an even harder fall? i.e nothing has changed really - he might get a slight bit more interest from the opposite sex (or whatever preference) due to the actual confidence; but it still does not change him into some sort of male model. Essentially it will always come back to the fact that he is physically unattractive and so is less likely to succeed (as much as he would like) socially, in work, or whatever. It'll always come back to the fact that he is unattractive and his level of confidence will match this.

    If you choose to think in such a way, you can make this true, but its not the only truth you can live. I've worked with guys who are thrilled about the level of success with the opposite sex they've had as a result of the right attitude and psychology. Often it's more work to make your life fantastic that to accept the way it is... but if success in life required being a male model, then the only men around would be male models, because all the other men would failed to have kids throughout the ages.
    Also, i'm wondering, with too much therapy or hypnosis.. is there a chance of throwing out the baby with the bath water? For instance, i like the way i am with a lot of things, i like the fact that i'm sensitive to others feelings, that i'm easy to talk to and i don't appear 'full of myself'. Could therapy, hypnosis or coaching, have unforeseen consequences of changing things that you actually like about yourself (with out you even knowing)? That is, turn one into an over confident, full of himself type (without even the looks to back it up!!!!)?

    It's possible to do this (with or without using NLP / Hypnosis) and worth being mindful of, and it's worth being discerning with whom you choose to work and who you become. At the same time, if you're confident enough to take action, some women may reject you... and you have to have enough assurance not to take it personally, because often it won't be for personal reasons. The best sales people are often those who have lost the most sales, because they've made the most pitches.
    Yes, i do go on! But i'm really interested in the 'confidence' thing and why an unattractive should feel confident, and if they do happen to achieve it, bar feeling somewhat better about themselves, what real difference it actually makes... Lets take it for granted that i do appreciate the benefits of a bit more confidence - both on how one perceives himself, and how others perceive the person - but allowing for that, i'm not sure i 'get' how this confidence is sustainable in the long term if the foundation for this confidence is so shaky (i.e nothing tangible has changed; still unattractive)

    Because the tangible you speak of is your subjective self perception, which drives many other factors in your behaviour, attitude, outlook, jokes and interactions.
    For the sake of debate, lets presume, there is independent verification of lack of attractiveness.

    Please be clear, are you here to debate? Or here to find an answer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Hi freakmagnet,

    I am a long time reader on boards and never respond to posts but having read your third post in this thread I felt compelled to reply.

    I am in the same boat as you and could have written this post word for word (although not as eloquently). I completely agree with your views and reasoning, black and white as it is.

    I also have low self esteem because I’m unattractive - not because I feel unattractive.

    Externally - I’ve been proactive and taken all the blatantly obvious steps to improving my physical appearance – gym membership (fit as a fiddle), eating well – good diet, smart wardrobe, well groomed, etc… but it’s all for nothing if society says you’re unattractive you’re unattractive. Now I know my last comment is going to prompt a barrage of posts about how I have a very skewed / negative shallow take on society but my personal life experience has bore this out.

    I was recently on holidays and done a lot of soul searching and decided I needed to work on my “inner game” by way of counselling but I am hesitant on starting down this path because at the end of the day no matter what progress I make the external reality (societies perspective) remains the same, you’re still unattractive.

    “It’s all about confidence” this statement also annoys me to a certain extent. I do agree that confidence is very important and a sought after characteristic but in my experience woman invariably will go for an attractive confident person rather than the unattractive confident person. I know this is gross generalisation but this is my experience.

    I’m sorry I don’t have any constructive advice but I just wanted to let you know you’re definitely not alone in your line of thinking.

    I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread as I could also use some good advice.

    All the best.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭freakmagnet


    Thanks Turbot.

    There is only one friend that I discuss this with – and she is social scientist, and doesn’t’ believe in truth or facts. This sometimes drives me crazy! And our discussion is coming on the back of that, so can I just say I really appreciate your posts! I certainly don’t want to appear unappreciative or combative – it’s essentially a ‘teasing out’ process for me, so I’m finding your posts very helpful.

    But here is the problem that I some of the things she and you say. If I make a specific point, you counter with a general point. If I make general point, you counter with a specific – so I feel that I can never get anything concrete.

    For instance, generalising that women like pink and girls like dolls – yes, that true in general. It is also learned behaviour. In general what we view as attractive, as you rightly point out, is learned behaviour. My point being that I’m not the colour pink – I’m not what women have learned to find attractive (so while I know women think differently, I also know that their behaviour is learned, just like mine, and that’s the broad similarity).

    As mentioned, my main problem is though, when I mention something general; I’m reminded of the specifics and that everyone is different – for e.g. Some women like weight lifters, tall men, short men, whatever but yet, in general, most women like pink and girls like dolls. I say, I’m not ‘pink’, and then another says, well, it depends on the woman – women are attracted to different things! Do you see where I’m going? It almost it shifts between the general or the specific, to suit the point that’s been made – all with one outcome, that is, the person with low self esteem doesn’t recognise his worth! So, I guess what I’m saying is that I get frustrated (not at you Turbot, as I say, I really appreciate you input) that a discussion of this kind is constantly shifting to the point that not one thing I might say could ever be taken, on the balance of probabilities, as true. And while, I really sympathise with your friend’s injury – it does seem to be the obligatory example that I was talking about where a person attracts a beautiful partner despite what others might perceive as a barrier to attraction.

    Well, ‘for the sake of debate’ is really just a term of phrase – but I’m essentially having a debate with myself, yes. The essential debate, and I’ll just say it without all the qualifications etc that I could throw in (like for instances, accepting that there is advantage to feeling better about ones self), anyway, the debate being: What is the point of feeling confident and attractive when I am physically unattractive? At this moment, I can only see one small benefit which will be short lived. I’ll feel happier about myself for a brief period UNTIL life unfolds. I ended up with no confidence for a REASON. The reason hasn’t gone, I have just temporarily tricked myself into thinking the reason doesn’t’ exist any more! It can never be a permanent solution! In short, there is reason the way I feel the way I do. Otherwise I wouldn’t feel it.

    The independent verification included hotornot! I actually find talking about the different verifications I’ve received a little humiliating – but I could go into detail if you’d like and/or helps the discussion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭jurgenscarl


    unattractive confident person.

    There's no such thing.

    Goodlooks is only part of attraction.

    Personality and attitude is most important.

    Some of my friends are good looking guys but rubbish with women.

    I knew a guy in school who was short fat hairy and pudgy but was a hit with ladies.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭turbot


    But here is the problem that I some of the things she and you say. If I make a specific point, you counter with a general point. If I make general point, you counter with a specific – so I feel that I can never get anything concrete.

    This is part of the challenge. You are trying to get a "concrete" understanding, abstracted from the process of changing your reality and then noticing what happens. If you try to organise how you see the World to get certaintly, you'll just go in an endless loop... because there are always more perspectives for everything.

    So while some people can be very certain about their ideas, and being certain about some ideas is useful because it encourages behaviour (i.e. if you were ultra certain you could get a girlfriend you liked, instead of doubting that, therefore not trying, you might keep doing what it takes until you succeed), being too certain about limiting ideas (i.e. that you can't get the relationship you want because of how you look) is a limiting idea and any counter argument is worth taking on board.
    For instance, generalising that women like pink and girls like dolls – yes, that true in general. It is also learned behaviour. In general what we view as attractive, as you rightly point out, is learned behaviour. My point being that I’m not the colour pink – I’m not what women have learned to find attractive (so while I know women think differently, I also know that their behaviour is learned, just like mine, and that’s the broad similarity).

    Again, I question your process here. How do you know what all women find to be attractive. I think you are, unknowingly, overestimating the quality of your knowledge about what women want. If you had an authorative knowledge on this front, you could probably make a lot of money, maybe some would really fancy you because they saw you as rich and powerful.
    As mentioned, my main problem is though, when I mention something general; I’m reminded of the specifics and that everyone is different – for e.g. Some women like weight lifters, tall men, short men, whatever but yet, in general, most women like pink and girls like dolls. I say, I’m not ‘pink’, and then another says, well, it depends on the woman – women are attracted to different things!

    You are simply defending your generalisation; and how you see the World.

    Have you ever tried arguing the other way round...? It might be liberating.

    Seriously, it's worth reading the Game by Neil Strauss (a great counter example for you) and also Prometheus Rising, by Robert Anton Wilson (to understand better your process of perception).
    Do you see where I’m going? It almost it shifts between the general or the specific, to suit the point that’s been made – all with one outcome, that is, the person with low self esteem doesn’t recognise his worth! So, I guess what I’m saying is that I get frustrated (not at you Turbot, as I say, I really appreciate you input) that a discussion of this kind is constantly shifting to the point that not one thing I might say could ever be taken, on the balance of probabilities, as true.

    I accept that to you, you hold much of what you state, to be true.

    That's different to my version of whats true, or anyone elses.

    If you ask a group of people in a forum for help, dont expect them to diss you.

    Your friends are pointing out a better version of reality to you, not to diss you, but because they like you enough to care!
    Well, ‘for the sake of debate’ is really just a term of phrase – but I’m essentially having a debate with myself, yes. The essential debate, and I’ll just say it without all the qualifications etc that I could throw in (like for instances, accepting that there is advantage to feeling better about ones self), anyway, the debate being: What is the point of feeling confident and attractive when I am physically unattractive? At this moment, I can only see one small benefit which will be short lived. I’ll feel happier about myself for a brief period UNTIL life unfolds. I ended up with no confidence for a REASON. The reason hasn’t gone, I have just temporarily tricked myself into thinking the reason doesn’t’ exist any more! It can never be a permanent solution! In short, there is reason the way I feel the way I do. Otherwise I wouldn’t feel it.

    With my background in NLP and Hypnosis, I can share what I know to be true of reality:

    1) You can permanently change and improve how you see yourself and your attitude about attraction. Feeling and behaving more attractively is a skill you can learn.
    2) Other people have had similar ideas about themselves as you, only to look back and realise they were wrong, having adopted / learned better attitudes.
    3) There is more to the dynamics of self re-inforcing feedback loops of looking good, feeling attractive, creating attraction, being well received, and thus acting more confidently, etc, than you seem to acknowledge, and you have more leverage over this process than you seem to understand.

    Moreover, if you used your intellect to study and discover what makes women feel good, you could at least have more and better relationships with more women.

    If you need any further proof, watch some videos of Sean Stephenson:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2whOqfcrBUE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo6jUXEpECI


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭freakmagnet


    Sorry, I don’t mean to ignore any other contributors!

    @ snow-monkey - thanks for your perspective - would you agree turbot?

    @ jurgenscarl – thanks for your input. I certainly wouldn’t say there is a life time of rejection and self doubt. I’m quite confident in many areas of my life. In fact, people have often mistaken me for confident individual!! I say that slightly tongue in cheek – but honestly, people have actually remarked that I appear self assured.

    @ ghtrutr – have just seen your post. Yes, I think we come from exactly the same school of thought. Like you say, I’m matter of fact about these things. In some ways I feel I’d be more open to change if someone just said – yes, you are unattractive, but, here is what you can do to mitigate it. When I hear resistance to calling a spade a spade and instead hear that the spade could be rake or a shovel etc, then I do get frustrated. Maybe this is part of the problem. I’m just less likely to believe, and take advice, when even some basics can’t be universally accepted. And then I think, does this person think I’m fishing for compliments? Or think I’m too soft to hear the truth from another living being? And this why I rarely vent my views on this subject because a) I don’t want to be seen as a fisher (of compliments) – “oh you’re not unattractive FM, you’re a great guy, and a caring person, blah blah” I don’t want this. B) I don’t want to change the way I’m perceived with friends and family etc – I’m perceived as upbeat – letting people know that I know I’m unattractive, may change their attitude to me – even sympathise with me! C) oh, just too many other reasons.

    Yes, I’m hesitant about improving the inner game. Why? If I’m really honest, by attempting to ‘improve’ my inner game, is an admission things are not like I say; that they are not as black and white. That things I KNOW are not necessarily true. In other words, I don’t want to be wrong! Why? Because I know I’m right ;)
    But then someone might say to me, perhaps the kind Turbot, and say, well, why can’t you take the risk that you might be wrong? Surely, its worth a try? I don’t know if I can – I feel that I could only accept a way forward if I convince the giver of the advice that my unattractiveness is not just a figment, its reality. Yeah, I might be somebody’s fetish, but by and large (yes, generalising), I’m unattractive. This admission, well it’s almost like a sign of good faith to me! Its almost like saying, ‘yes, I’m not going to treat you like a child, I’m going to tell you like it is…’. Then of course, I put the shoe on the other foot, would I do that to somebody else…? And then I begin, to see how difficult being that matter of fact could be…

    @ turbot – again thanks for your response. I can see that you know I value it. I’ll certainly look into the reading material you suggest, and I can definitely appreciate the points you make. Here’s a thing though – lets get off how the suggestions apply to me – but lets just view the books from a run of the mill sceptical point of view. Do you think its all a bit hocus pocus? Almost, like an opium of the people solution? Like spam, which generally tries to play on peoples insecurities – be it weight, penis size, whatever. I.e. – Sean Stevenson says, would you like to be happy? For ever? Like the religions saying, ‘get through this horrible life, because heaven’s just round the corner, there you’ll be happy. I mean, if the happiness WAS so easily achieved, wouldn’t every one be just happy? Or slim? Or whatever insecurity resolved? And, also, this ‘I make women fall in love with me’ – I’m not sure I like this. Personally, I’m not interested in love, but lets say I was, and I took his advice – what exactly is the woman falling in love with? A mind trick? An illusion? Without being a romantic (which I’m not!!), I would certainly like the woman to fall in ‘love’ with me – my thoughts, my personality, not a mind trick? There is just an element of fakeness there – something I can’t totally put my finger on, but it bothers me.

    @jurgenscarl – I think what ghtrutr is trying to say – who would a woman go for – a good looking guy with confidence? Or a confident (due to the methods we discussed) less physically attractive guy? (and yes, people can say – well you can’t say that – the woman might find x y and z attractive – but you know what I mean ;) ). Well, ghtutr contends, as do I, they are going to go with the former.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I hear you FM, here’s some more of my opinions / experience on the topic.

    As stated before in my mind I’m sure I’m unattractive, a decade without so much as a kiss from a woman tells me this.

    However It was not always so, I was once on the other side of the looking glass before I hit my twenties I actually had woman throwing themselves at me (no joke). I literally turned up at a night club, pub, social gathering and had loads of interest from woman – actually I should say girls rather than woman as this was during my teen years.

    I gave up going out about three years ago because I got no enjoyment from hitting pubs and clubs, observing the attractive folks hitting it off, seeing good looking guys walking up to woman and 30 minutes latter “getting off” with them (for want of a better term), something I haven’t achieved in a very long time. I know some of you are picturing a guy stuck in the corner of a pub sporting a scowl the size of the Shannon but that’s not the case at all.

    At this stage I need to get independent verification of exactly how unattractive I am. As you have stated this is difficult because you cannot ask anyone that knows you and expect to get an honest answer, similarly a counsellors job is to help you so you won’t get any straight reality out of them either. You made a very good point – (“if the shoe was on the other foot”) if someone came up to you (known/Unknown) and asked if you though they were unattractive you’re not going to tell that person they’re flat out ugly!

    Obviously nobody wants to be told they are unattractive and if I’m to be honest the thought of hearing it come from someone else sort of terrifies me but I’ve skirted around this issue for far too long…

    Confidence: Important as it is this term is bandied around far too willingly these days by advice givers (professional or otherwise) using it as a catch all phrase that will solve all your problems. I am supremely confident in my professional ability, nobody could ever tell me I’m bad at my job. The flip side of this is I have no confidence / self esteem when it comes to dealing with people face to face because I’m unattractive and I cannot make proper eye contact which makes it impossible to build meaningful relationships. If I was attractive I would have confidence so it’s like you said “chicken and the egg” – maybe hypnosis is the answer but then your living a lie.

    Is all hope lost? Is there such a thing as the league tables? If so perhaps you could find a woman of similar attractiveness but you would have to assume that this person wouldn’t have any confidence either so how would you ever meet…

    Well I’m a few months away from my 30th and life’s crossroads is coming up fast so like the film says (get busy living or get busy dying) I’ve got to decide if I can go through life without a lady friend, if I can I don’t have to change a thing but if I can’t I’ll have to pull out all the stops to find my equal on this league table.

    Wow!! It feels good to vent and write everything down – again I haven’t given you a shred of advice in this long rant but wanted to let you know you’re not alone brother - chin up!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭freakmagnet


    Hi again ghtrutr - yes, I relate to every word you have written. I agree about seeing the beautiful people out there enjoying themselves - I’m definitely not bitter at them, and I’m certainly not a grouch in the corner cursing my bad luck - I guess I’m just envious and wonder what it would be like to be able to shed my unattractiveness just for a day! Sometimes I’d watch friends interact with women - and its bitter sweet, I smile because I love to see the way they 'work their magic', but on the other side I feel a tinge of sadness that I can never have that! Most times I never think about that envy, but there is always just one cold minute (during a night out or whatever) where it hits me, it takes me a few minutes to filter it back out of my mind again, and then I’m back to chatting or whatever. I'll obviously over think it once I’m alone and have the chance to do so!!

    I know where you are at with the 'independent verification' connunundrum. What do you think are the advantages of it? Logically, it’s not going to make any difference - in both our cases. We've both accepted it in our own minds and now conduct our lives accordingly. It is nice to know, I suppose, that we have not made a huge judgment error (and in my case, there wasn't some sort of grand conspiracy in operation -" the JFK assassination, the lunar landings, 911 and the FM Ugly Conspiracy - learn about all the great modern conspiracies on the Discovery Channel's brand new ground breaking series - TONIGHT, only on the Discovery Channel!!!"). But yeah, I suppose, despite my certainty, there'll always be a micro-doubt there - just what makes us human, I guess.

    The problem with the league table idea - and I know you say it non-seriously, but with a grain of truth, from my experience is this. And I’ll talk about myself from now on, rather than referring to 'we', as while our thoughts are broadly similar, we don't know the details of our particular situations. The problem is that striking up some sort of relationship with a woman whom I feel is on my level of attractiveness is fraught with difficulties which will eventually come to the fore. Over time she will know that I suffer from low self esteem because of the way that I look. She will begin to wonder - is FM with me because he feels he can't get anything better? What does that say about me, she'll wonder? The problem here is that by very definition, both parties to the relationship are going to suffer from huge confidence issues, and rather than the relationship itself helping and galvanising positive thoughts of each person, it will do the exact opposite. Plus, we can't help who we are attracted too. Yes, I like everyone else, say in my own mind 'oooh, she's not my type at all, I don't her one bit, she's unattractive'. I'm sure if people could read those thoughts, they'd be saying.. the CHEEK of him! I don't think he's got any right to be judging the attractiveness of others - look at the state of him!! But hey, that’s also being human.

    Personally, for the record, I’ve never had desire to be in a relationship. Some might say, well, what’s the point of this thread? Well, relationships are the only things that are in jeopardy due to unattractiveness - in fact IF one were to believe these nauseating comments that one reads in threads, such as "its only the inside of person that counts", then attractiveness has NOTHING got do with relationships! Yes, people say this. For me, it’s the want to have another dimension to my relationships with women - I’d like to have the playful flirtations, to feel good that maybe they be interested/consider me with 'romantic' (for want of a better word (not just mates, in other words) implications. To have the thrill of sexual chemistry or tension. Everyone likes that; it’s the spice of life. I have experienced it years ago, so I guess I know what I’m missing a small bit. The last time I remember even some fleeting interest in me from women is about six years ago. I'm 31 by the way, so only slightly older.

    My general day to day dealing with people are ok, I often forget that I’m unattractive. I never think I’m attractive, but I often forget that I’m unattractive it that makes sense. So while we were talking about the 'chicken and egg' situation there (i.e. I don't have self esteem issues because if feel unattractive, its because I am unattractive), I would wonder if your self image is intruding on areas of your life where it technically shouldn’t - for instance your face to face contact with men, family and other groups where physical attraction is of little importance. So you could possible benefit on improving on self esteem for that. Like you, I’m very confident in a lot of areas of my life - and yes, it really annoys me when people say 'its just confidence, all you need is confidence' or, 'just make women laugh'. All fine, if you're a ride!! :D

    I suppose where my opinion of myself came into stark focus was an incident a couple of years ago. I did a postgraduate - one of the girls in my class, lived near enough to me. She had some notes that I had given her. I was driving home from my part time job one evening and she called and asked me to call to her house to get the notes. I didn't know her overly well - but we got on well from college. I told her it was fine, I’ll get the notes another evening or next week in college or something. She said, no, sure you'll be passing my house anyway, just call in! I was well, I don't really want to impose on you.. and she said, don't be silly, just call in, get the notes and have a chat. I agreed, but just had a feeling of uneasiness about it. I called to her, all was fine - chatted away, and got on my way. When I got home I was trying to figure out the cause of my uneasiness. I figured out it was this. I knew, from a previous conversation that her brother was home for a visit. Her parents were also to be home. I was afraid that I would embarrass her! I was afraid, that, if her brother or one of her parents happened to come in to the room while we were chatting, they MIGHT assume, even for a second, that maybe I was some sort of romantic interest of hers! And in their minds, they'd be thinking 'oh god....look at him!' So, I didn't want to mortify her. Its all ridiculous because, she didn't care, so why should I... but that’s how I felt - I though I would embarrass her because I was so unattractive.. and what if they thought there was something between us... what mortification for her. I’ve had the feeling a few times, like being in a bar with a female friend – and then some acquaintance of that friend comes in and says hello – they’ll probably assume we are together as a couple – and I think, it must be mortifying for my female friend. If the conversation is more than mere pleasantries, I always try and drop in something that will signify that we are not a couple – just to save her blushes!

    Another example where my unattractiveness resonates, is when people ask me – so how it’s the love life? Any girls on the scene? Or comments of that nature. Depending on the person, I often wonder at they trying to take the p!ss out of me/humiliate me? Surely, they have eyes and can see how I look. Are they David Brent, or they seriously not thinking about the questions they are asking?!!


    By the way I did buy the book that SE recommended earlier in this thread - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-L...8060082&sr=8-1 – and I’ve read the introductory chapters. Again the problem I have a problem with it – because the line of reasoning is that they way the reader feels about himself is actually based on a lie rather than facts. This makes me sceptical, but I’ll give it a go.


Advertisement