Census 2011 - An opportunity missed.

clohamon

This is the question, the only question, that will be asked about internet connectivity in the next Census.





This is the background.

On 18th of August 2008 the Director General of CSO wrote to The Secretary General of DCENR seeking a submission from DCENR to the consultation on the proposed questionnaire for Census 2011 and advising him that a pilot study with any proposed changes (to the 2006 Census questionnaire) would be carried out in April 2009.

DCENR did not make a submission.

Just to be sure about question H11 the Census Advisory Group (CAG*) contacted the ICT liaison Group** to clarify the wording on Question H11 and were advised that no change was required.

The questionnaire was duly finalised, passed to government with recommendations, and after the official census day had been chosen, a memorandum was sent to all departments in late 2009.

Following the finalisation of the questionnaire but prior to the meeting of Government on 11th December, DCENR communicated with CSO requesting

"if possible to expand on the question relating to pc ownership and internet accessibility (H10 and H11) to include a question on the nature of the internet connection (i.e. dsl/wireless/satellite)."

CSO responded by saying that they did not include questions without first testing them and that it had been the purpose of the pilot earlier in the year to try out new wordings and questions, and that

"untested wordings which might appear straightforward, would be likely to cause difficulties in interpretation and therefore lead to results which would not be that useful"

"There is also major space pressure on the census form and it would not be possible (to) cater for the additional proposed question in the section relating to household characteristics. Perhaps it might be possible to determine from internet service providers how many of the different types of internet connections are in existence."

It is hard to understand why the ICT liaison group**, thought that in 2009 the question above should represent all of our curiosity into connectivity and the internet.
It is even harder to understand why DCENR did not respond to the CSO invitation to contribute to the consultation or provide any input from August 2008 until December 2009, by the end of which time it was too late to make a change.


Postscript

DCENR indicated (in response to a Dail question) that they would be carrying out their own study of broadband later this year (2010). A subsequent answer indicated that the study had been abandoned.



*Census Advisory Group (CAG - advises CSO)
Departments:- An Taoiseach, CRGA, E & S, ET&E, EH&LG, F, H&C, S&FA, T
Dublin Transportation Office, ESRI, Equality Authority, IBEC, ICTU, Local Government Management Services Board, National Disability Authority, Regional Authorities Directors Association, CSO

*ICT Liaison Group - (advises CAG on ICT type issues)
ICT Ireland (IBEC), Dept. of Taoiseach, Comreg, Dept of Ent. Trade & Employment, Forfas, Waterford Institute of Technology, CSO

watty

Because DCENR doesn't want a clear defined answer.
They want to lump Satellite and Mobile 3G and other non-dailup/non-ISDN as Broadband. They don't want to admit there are substandard Internet products that are not dialup.

Sponge Bob

They particularly want to conflate Mobile Midband with real Broadband in the hope it comes right by 2016 when the next census is held post Digital Dividend. Therefore they said nothing to the CSO.

A classic crime of omission .

e-sull

i for one will be answering yes other connection for my three fraudband.. im not going to call it broadband.....ever.

Sponge Bob

Yep. Anybody who cannot get a consistent 2mbits should answer option 2 , other, in the census. 2mbits is the "EU 2020" minimum.

Cabaal

Think I'll start a sticky in Broadband to educate people on this

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Yep. Anybody who cannot get a consistent 2mbits should answer option 2 , other, in the census. 2mbits is the "EU 2020" minimum.

with consistently less than 80ms ping/latency
and ALWAYS connects.

Broadband is not just speed, but good latency, always on and consistent.

cgarvey

Can we not easily get these numbers outside of the census already? Don't ComReg know the almost exact subscriber figures for each company and technology?

What would be a far more valuable question to ask (in that limited space) is "can you get broadband", or some variation on that, but that's very subjective a topic to be asking, perhaps.

watty

The Comreg figures would not be localised nor clearly or accurately differentiate Business or Home.

Cabaal

cgarvey wrote: »

What would be a far more valuable question to ask (in that limited space) is "can you get broadband", or some variation on that, but that's very subjective a topic to be asking, perhaps.

Thing is Midband isn't Broadband and thanks to the ASAI not stopping Three, meteor, O2 and Vodafone advertising Midband as Broadband the average Joe on the street thinks it is Broadband.

So in short 99% of people will answer yes on a "can you get Broadband?" question

watty

Indeed ASAI & Comreg and DNCER etc in Ireland assume anything "more" than 128K ISDN (Narrowband according To Comreg, ITU, OECD, FCC etc) is Broadband. If price was equal I'd pick 2 channel ISDN over Ripwave, Mobile, Imagine WiMax and Clearwire. There is absolutely no logical reason why analogue Dialup and ISDN costs more than DSL if the local exchange has Internet backhaul for DSL.

clohamon

The categorization seems to breakdown either by performance (eg >/< 2Mbs) or by platform (eg includes DSL, cable , fibre, satellite but excludes 3g, WiFi etc).

I think the platform categorization is less likely to run into more subjective issues such as peak time performance, latency, reliability etc.

There's also the question of what is the most appropriate question for international comparisons and comparisons over time( ie from census to census)

The detail behind the question has to be simple enough for the non-expert householder to understand and simple enough for the average census enumerator to explain on the doorstep.

It is now too late to change the actual question for this census, but a lot hangs on how the question is explained by the census enumerators on the doorstep, and whether it is explained when the form is being handed out or when it is being collected.

CSO are still accepting submissions on the instructions to be given to census enumerators.

watty

Satellite isn't exactly true Broadband, though meets it more than Ripwave, Mobile, Imagine WiMax and Clearwire if you are on a package with low enough contention (Some Satellite packages have 500:1 contention!). Minimum 790ms unless you use Iridium, which can only give "Narrowband" speeds.

cgarvey

Fair point on the midband being considered broadband. However, asking if a user has <2Mb broadband (when the vast majority don't know, or care) is pointless. There are plenty of people who can answer "No" even after trying o2 "Broadband", which is altogether more valuable than a breakdown of speed.

The census isn't for technical questions (do you have Satellite, or DSL? Is it >2Mbs?), and it's a waste when we should be able to get those stats from the licensed providers themselves. If we want localised, then mandate that from ComReg.. the Census isn't the place for that.

Something more generic that gives a better picture of our satisfaction. Who cares if 75% have DSL > 1Mbs, if 100% of those are unsatisfied with their service. So "Do you have broadband", "Is the service satisfactory?", "Are you unable to get broadband?", "Do you want broadband?" types of questions are better suited towards the census, I think; even at the risk of being overly-subjective (and, therefore, not stacking up to statistical analysis).

Right now, we have no indication (whatsoever; not so much as a guesstimate) of the number of people who want broadband that are unable to get it.

watty

cgarvey wrote: »

Right now, we have no indication (whatsoever; not so much as a guesstimate) of the number of people who want broadband that are unable to get it.

I'd say that certain people would like that to remain a secret. We do have guesses, but they are rubbish guesses. You can more accurately guess how many people can't get broadband over 2Mbps (no matter if they want it or not), but even then that amazingly is just an educated guess. Despite the "information gathering" done for the NBS tender maps. A huge wasted opportunity.

PogMoThoin

Yes, the NBS maps dont tell anything near the truth though, lots of these areas already had fixed wireless coverage. The information and coverage maps sent in by the wireless Isp's at the time was disregarded. Lots of people are disconnecting from reputable wireless providers because Eamon Ryan tells them this NBS farce is the best thing for them.

e-sull

to be honest i'd like to see a question asking "are you paying for something thats somehow marketed as broadband but only lets you use it if youre very lucky?"

......

but i'm sure thats just me...:rolleyes:

genie

One of the questions on the census form is about whether you have broadband. I take it by broadband they mean landline broadband?

I have mobile broadband (I'll never have landline broadband where I live) so should I tick 'other connection'?

Thanks!

watty

Mobile is never Broadband, You have Mobile Internet via Mobile Phone network.

Imagine WiMax isn't Broadband.

Fixed Wireless can be Broadband.


This is really shabby if they don't have a list as many products are not advertised correctly.

Clearwire and Ripwave wasn't Broadband.

See http://www.techtir.ie/forums/internet-faq

clohamon

genie wrote: »

One of the questions on the census form is about whether you have broadband. I take it by broadband they mean landline broadband?

I have mobile broadband (I'll never have landline broadband where I live) so should I tick 'other connection'?

Thanks!

This was discussed here.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055955618

The question is what kind of internet connection do you have. I think the consensus around here is that mobile is midband. So that would make it "other connection"; but its your call.

It will be interesting to see what way the enumerators will guide those that don't know.

mousehouse

I am an enumerator for this census 2011 and we have been told Broadband is landline only..... Other connection applys to dongles, satilitte, wimaxetc etc... It is to try and find out where better connections are needed.

watty

Thanks mousehouse

Metro Wireless however can be 12x better than land line Broadband. That's a minority compared to so called "Mobile Broadband" which is never going to deliver Broadband.

There are different kinds of WiMax deployment. Some are Broadband, some not. So many subscribers would not be sure if what they have is Broadband or not as it's not just about speed.

So good simple decision.

watty

Allegedly the Enumerators are to explain that only fixed line counts as broadband. I hope it says this in the explinations of the form.

voip

Well,

To be honest I think most people show answer NO, they don't have broadband Internet. (Yes to other internet connection)

Because by international standards, what most of Ireland has could not really be considered true broadband.

"A very high speed 'always-on' service connection allowing large amounts of information to be conveyed simultaneously, such as data, voice, graphics files and video".

Not only do I have issues with the "very high speeds" but also the "always on" my connection drops at least 5 - 6 times a day.

2048 kbps /256 kbps. No I don't have broadband!

watty

Got Form
My Enumerator said put yes if you have Access to Broadband.
His training on form has not differentiated Mobile USB dongles and WiFi USB Dongles.

The Broadband question is useless. Because the Public and the Enumerators don't know what Broadband is.

All the Satellite, Mobile Data Account, Mobile PAYG and Imagine WiMax Subscribers sold something called "Broadband" and most will put down Broadband on form. None of those are Broadband.

bealtine

watty wrote: »

The Broadband question is useless. Because the Public and the Enumerators don't know what Broadband is.

All the Satellite, Mobile Data Account, Mobile PAYG and Imagine WiMax Subscribers sold something called "Broadband" and most will put down Broadband on form. None of those are Broadband.

That just plays into DECNR's hands now they can claim lots of people have "broadband" when in fact they have unreliable midband.

PogMoThoin

Hold on, we have a regulator who should have these figures, forget the census, make the regulator do some paperwork and differentiate between what is broadband and what isn't broadband, they have the figures

watty

The Regulator has the figures the Industry releases. Three got in trouble as they got caught giving Comreg the wrong figures.

Mobile Operators will count Sims issued, not actual traffic. PAYG etc... They might count someone that cancelled 1 month into their financial year as a subscriber all year...

clohamon

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They particularly want to conflate Mobile Midband with real Broadband in the hope it comes right by 2016 when the next census is held post Digital Dividend. Therefore they said nothing to the CSO.

A classic crime of omission .

How time flies....